[Deck] The Rock

[crow_mw]

@Matt - Traditionally Choke is good against all blue decks, but while this is a big pain to RUG, resolving it is a pain as well...

@Barbed Blightning - I could actually use some pointers against RUG, so maybe you could share with us? How do you play against stifle, wasteland and daze at the same time?

[.Ix]

Stoneforge doesn't speed it up. typically it'll give you a little more power vs them via a reliable, recur-able creature. You'll end up hard casting the Batterskull more often than not. I also don't recommend Jitte (perhaps a second BS) for the current Meta. Everything that you'll want to kill will have been overrun already by your removal and 'larger' creatures.

My meta is different, and Jitte is still very relevant around here. I do want to play Batterskull, however. SFM gives me more threats for when my other attempts to put power on the board have been neutered. This is when the game slows down to a crawl anyway, and when this happens I am likely to have enough mana to hardcast the equipment in hand and dodge discard effects. I have to test more, but I have found myself drawing a lot more without SFM in the deck.

nodahero:

Generally SOFI, SOLAS, and SOFAF are the best, and the other two are far worse. Jitte is overall still the best equipment in the game, but it loses a bit of value in removal-heavy environments (Grim Lavamancer, Punishing Fire, etc).

[Barbed Blightning]

@Matt - Traditionally Choke is good against all blue decks, but while this is a big pain to RUG, resolving it is a pain as well...

@Barbed Blightning - I could actually use some pointers against RUG, so maybe you could share with us? How do you play against stifle, wasteland and daze at the same time?

Well, first and foremost I don't play GSZ or SFM. My list is essentially a quadlazer-style deck, and I feel like I'm less susceptible to their taxing counters (that one additional mana for GSZ makes a big difference, imo).

As far as playing against stifle, wasteland, and daze, it's something that comes with experience. Are you on the play? if so, you're usually fine with a turn one fetch into a basic (I grab a swamp or forest depending on my hand; usually forest so I can resolve my goyfs, but if you have a bob in hand, obviously grab the swamp) then I drop DRS regardless, since he is our best maindeck tool versus that deck. Turn two you can drop one of our power bears through a daze or a stifle (though obviously not through both). Sure, they can bolt your DRS on turn one, but that means your second fetch is guaranteed to hit your other basic. And if they play a Delver or goose and their first turn, well, you should have no problems getting what you need to beat them out.

From the board I bring in 2 ooze, a duress and a thalia from my board in favor of my 4 thoughtseize. Ooze just straight up murders their gameplan (GY and aggressive damage), Thalia slows them, and duress hits what I would want thoughtseize to hit anyway: submerge.

Also a fun fact: Liliana of the Veil is better than RUG's entire 75. -2 hits their very limited suite of dudes, esp. mongoose. +1 is actually my favorite to lead off with, since it automatically makes her immune to bolt and kills their ever-shrinking hand. -6 almost never happens, but if it does, you'll blow the game out. Just remember to play her after you've stabilized.

I mean, you're not ALWAYS guaranteed to beat Canadian (it's still tier one for a reason, after all), but I'd say you should be able to beat it eight times out of ten.

[Esper3k]

I disagree, since I think stifle and wasteland can be played around. Yeah you'll be slower at starting, but once we stabilize, we'll lock them out. I've never had issues beating RUG

Playing around Stifle/Wasteland/Daze is always easy to say, but much harder to do against an experienced Tempo player than it sounds.

Even if you're on the play decision trees are much harder than you think. If it's G1, do you fetch a basic or not? Given the multiple differing colored mana requirements our deck has, fetching a basic can often screw you over, especially if they have a Wasteland. Given that it's a G1, there's a very good chance you don't know what you're up against. A lot of times, 2 land hands are just fine but against tempo decks, you can just be dead from it regardless of playing around Wasteland/Stifle/Daze or not.

Second, we can't always count on having Deathrite Shaman T1. In your example from the previous post, you're talking about the best possible scenerio we have - T1 Deathrite on the play, have fetches that can get whatever basic we need.

The scariest thing a RUG / Tempo player can do is actually T1, play land, pass turn then lead into T2 Delver/Mongoose. Experienced Tempo players don't tap out unless they absolutely have to. Yes, we can sit and try to play around Stifle/Wasteland/Daze, but that usually takes 1) Time that you might not have due to an early Delver or 2) Cards we may or may not have in our hand.

[Barbed Blightning]

Playing around Stifle/Wasteland/Daze is always easy to say, but much harder to do against an experienced Tempo player than it sounds.

Even if you're on the play decision trees are much harder than you think. If it's G1, do you fetch a basic or not? Given the multiple differing colored mana requirements our deck has, fetching a basic can often screw you over, especially if they have a Wasteland. Given that it's a G1, there's a very good chance you don't know what you're up against. A lot of times, 2 land hands are just fine but against tempo decks, you can just be dead from it regardless of playing around Wasteland/Stifle/Daze or not.

Second, we can't always count on having Deathrite Shaman T1. In your example from the previous post, you're talking about the best possible scenerio we have - T1 Deathrite on the play, have fetches that can get whatever basic we need.

The scariest thing a RUG / Tempo player can do is actually T1, play land, pass turn then lead into T2 Delver/Mongoose. Experienced Tempo players don't tap out unless they absolutely have to. Yes, we can sit and try to play around Stifle/Wasteland/Daze, but that usually takes 1) Time that you might not have due to an early Delver or 2) Cards we may or may not have in our hand.

So, why not post your own solutions to this apparent RUG dilemma rather than picking apart mine? I've given what advice I can vs. Canadian given my experience against it in both testing and the field. I also don't know how some people don't understand how to play around Daze/Wasteland/Stifle. Have you not bothered practicing this matchup? Does it not exist in your metagame at all?

I would also argue that, even despite all the cantrips in the deck, RUG will not always have the "godhand" of delver, daze, waste AND stifle. It's just not always likely. Also, not every list runs stifle; some are favoring forked bolt/other burn as a method of dealing with DRS.

[damionblackgear]

My meta is different, and Jitte is still very relevant around here. I do want to play Batterskull, however. SFM gives me more threats for when my other attempts to put power on the board have been neutered. This is when the game slows down to a crawl anyway, and when this happens I am likely to have enough mana to hardcast the equipment in hand and dodge discard effects. I have to test more, but I have found myself drawing a lot more without SFM in the deck.

That's fair. Metagames vary from location to location. the thing to make sure of is that Jitte is what you really what. It's great 90% of the time but there are other options as you meantions. SOFI and SOLS are my two picks. I see no use towards SOWP and I view the alternate win condition potential more important than the untap and I'd rather have the 2/2 than the discard most of the time. The sword preference is my personal opinion. Everyone's will vary.

As for playing around stifle, sometimes the best defense is to wait. The later the game goes the better it gets for us. If they don't do anything with their fetch, don't do anything with your fetch. Sometimes you can catch them off guard and fetch in response to their fetch (or when they tap out). It's more about feeling them out (this analogy will not exist in parenthesis). Sometimes you'll just get that feeling that it's safe, trust it. you'll find out if you're wrong and that feeling will improve (you're basically learning to read people. It's a good thing. Keep learning how to tell until you think you've got it).

Daze is only important if they lead with a Delver. Then again, 3 damage isn't the end of the world. be patient with your swords. Make them double daze or pierce. Also, doing it at their end step isn't the worst either. If you can afford 6, take 6 and burn them out of the ability to respond to your next spell.

Wasteland isn't something you play around if you can't. If you can, do it. There's no reason to fetch non-basics if you don't have to. 2 land hands suck when you get wasted. Take the chance that you'll find something else and get your basics. Better to be able to cast something than nothing. This goes mute if you don't have the opportunity or you need the spell NOW.

[Esper3k]

So, why not post your own solutions to this apparent RUG dilemma rather than picking apart mine? I've given what advice I can vs. Canadian given my experience against it in both testing and the field. I also don't know how some people don't understand how to play around Daze/Wasteland/Stifle. Have you not bothered practicing this matchup? Does it not exist in your metagame at all?

I would also argue that, even despite all the cantrips in the deck, RUG will not always have the "godhand" of delver, daze, waste AND stifle. It's just not always likely. Also, not every list runs stifle; some are favoring forked bolt/other burn as a method of dealing with DRS.

From my own experience, both playing against it in the field & testing against it, I just do not agree that the matchup is as easy as you claim especially nowhere near 8/10 times.

Simply put, it's not a simple matter of playing around Daze/Wasteland/Stifle because in the field - there is only so much you can do to play around those spells. Most of the time, at some point, you have to test the waters and see if they have it.

For me, to help increase percentage points in the RUG matchup, I play slightly fewer fetches and more actual dual lands. Also, I try to play spells that don't multiple colors if I can help it (so I don't have to be as reliant upon dual lands). Playing less Wastelands and more actual colored mana sources also helps. Post-board, I actually keep many of the 1 mana discard spells because 1) it's critical in this matchup to have a 1 drop spell we can cast, but still isn't key to have it resolve. The 1 mana discard spells fit this role perfectly because if they do resolve, we gain valuable information while removing one of their threats. You very rarely want to lead off with a T1 StP because there's a pretty good chance (between Daze & FoW) of it getting stopped 2) typically, people board out the 1 mana discard spells for slower / more expensive cards which I believe is incorrect - it both screws up your mana curve as well as plays further into their mana denial / disruption plan.

If your meta is full of RUG / tempo decks, I actually think playing Tarmogoyfs and cutting Knights is likely correct. The multicolor cost of Knight makes it tougher to cast through Wasteland/Stifle since your primary colors to stabilize should be getting GB to get Abrupt Decay online. The 3 mana cost of it makes it tougher to cast under their mana denial plan. Post-board, they're going to be bringing in 3-4 Submerges which also makes Knights very bad since we have no way to protect her (unlike say Maverick with Mother of Runes). Tarmogoyf is a fine blocker for Mongoose and opposing 'Goyfs because our game plan should be to stall and develop our mana and allow our more powerful mid range spells / removal to take over.

Fundmentally, against RUG / Tempo decks, the early game should be spent focusing on developing our manabase and only exposing ourselves to Stifle/Waste/Daze if we have to stop pressure from early attackers, putting priority on Delvers, Tarmogoyfs, and Mongooses in that order to deal with.

Again, because of the nature of our deck (three colors, heavily dependant on getting combinations of different colors of mana together), it is inherently susceptible to the Stifle/Wasteland/Daze plan and so there's only so much you can do against that.

[sdematt]

This is the matchup where I used to have Life from the Loam for, but I just don't have the room anymore. DRS took that slot :P

-Matt

[Koby]

This deck and Maverick are close enough in composition that the following advice is valid:
Fetch basics. Develop your mana to 3-4 ASAP. Kill Delver but don't walk into Daze. KotR will carry you the rest of the way.

[Kich867]

Hey all, heading to Jupiter this weekend with Rock. Here's the list I'll be taking, it leans towards being very, very grindy. I notice a lot of lists right now lean towards being aggressive, I don't want that, not my jam with this sort of thing.

// List: 60
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Lingering Souls

2x Vindicate
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Swords to Plowshares

2x Life from the Loam
3x Duress
2x Inquisition of Kozilek

2x Sylvan Library
2x Sensei's Divining Top

2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless

2x Savannah
2x Scrubland
2x Bayou
3x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains

// Sideboard: 15
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Armageddon
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Scavenging Ooze

I'll let you know how I do when I get back. I'm expecting a lot of Jund/Bug/Nic Fit/Rug/Elves, and not a lot of combo. I know for a fact there are like 5 Scape-wish Nic Fit lists going to be there and I have a good matchup main and a silly matchup postboard so that's refreshing (between Teeg, Armageddon, Hymn, and Surgical).

Combo will be annoying, but I'm hoping the Hymn/Extraction/Teeg plan will let me keep them down long enough to pull wins out / hoping I won't see them.

I feel pretty confidant against just about anything with this list right now, it really suits me. And duresses are because I don't have thoughtseizes.

[Koby]

Why Duress over Thoughtseize? The life loss isn't that big of a factor in you're expecting mid-range decks, but the ability to nab creatures will be more useful.

[dballard]

Or, as someone suggested to me, Cabal Therapy since you are playing Lingering Souls?

[Kich867]

Why Duress over Thoughtseize? The life loss isn't that big of a factor in you're expecting mid-range decks, but the ability to nab creatures will be more useful.

Last sentence ^_^, sorry haha.

Duresses are because I do not own thoughtseizes. Leaning towards Duress over IOK because I'm running 8 removal spells plus liliana and garruk, who are essentially removal spells. More worried about spells and combo decks.

Cabal Therapy is an interesting option, dredge is popular there and it would certainly help to be able to just up and kill a guy to blow up bridges..

[damionblackgear]

Why Zenith in the board? It seems like it'd be a card that if you're going to play it you'd rather have it in the main.

[Kich867]

Why Zenith in the board? It seems like it'd be a card that if you're going to play it you'd rather have it in the main.

Because the only relevant target is Knight, I generally only care about landing a DRS early.. it serves no other function other than being Knight's 5-6. That seems sort of pointless unless against decks where the long-game is clearly where it's going and redundant copies of knights are what I'm looking for.

More importantly, it lets me run virtually 6 copies of DRS, 3 copies of Ooze against graveyard decks, or 4 copies of teeg against combo, or 6 copies of knights against miracles where spot removal forces me to just slam knights until they give.

So it lets me run more copies of cards that I need and expands my sideboard to be worth many more cards than it should be.

[sdematt]

Then perhaps run the card in the main, since it's pretty fucking good. Cut a Duress and a Top, Add 2 GSZ and make it 3 Sylvan Libraries. You're a mana intensive build; you do not want to be derdling with Top.

-Matt

[crow_mw]

Thank you for all the input on Canadian *****. I am sort of surprised about the 'do not side thoughtseizes out'. Indeed I always side them out, with common reasoning 'no need to shock yourself' and I am suffering from too few 1 drops. Are other players here also keeping thoughtseizes in games 2 and 3?

[Esper3k]

Thank you for all the input on Canadian *****. I am sort of surprised about the 'do not side thoughtseizes out'. Indeed I always side them out, with common reasoning 'no need to shock yourself' and I am suffering from too few 1 drops. Are other players here also keeping thoughtseizes in games 2 and 3?

For me, it's worth 2 life to take their Tarmogoyf / Submerge / Countermagic, etc as well as give you valuable information on what cards (Stifle/Wasteland/Daze) you need to be playing around.

[Claymore]

Random thought, but a Ghost Quarter/Wasteland split would be an easy way to take out Miracle's double Plains, especially with KotR fetching.

[sdematt]

Random thought, but a Ghost Quarter/Wasteland split would be an easy way to take out Miracle's double Plains, especially with KotR fetching.

In all honesty I'd thought about this. Plus, makes them shuffle. EOT, muck your Plains, go search for an Island. Cool story. They'd have to Entreat or Terminus right then if they'd set up the Miracle, making that interesting as well.

Also, we're DTB now? Weird. I'm not even mad, but I just feel like we should put up better American numbers (Rock's doing well in Europe for sure) before we brag about DTB. It's up to us!

-Matt