[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Megadeus]

I don't care if they are SBing it right now, Force of Will makes all the difference in the world between Seize and Inquisition.

My comments were towards non blue decks. I apologize that wasn't clear

[Bryant Cook]

My comments were towards non blue decks. I apologize that wasn't clear

However, you need a card thats versatile that interacts with blue decks as well. Which is why I'm playing Therapy, it's the best of the three options.

[Megadeus]

However, you need a card thats versatile that interacts with blue decks as well. Which is why I'm playing Therapy, it's the best of the three options.

Right. Especially in a deck with 4 Probes. Also for force of will decks you have duress as well

also someone said something about the fourth duress over the 4th silence. Ive debated the idea as well

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Right. Especially in a deck with 4 Probes. Also for force of will decks you have duress as well

also someone said something about the fourth duress over the 4th silence. Ive debated the idea as well

Eh, you want the fourth Silence. Really wanted the fifth in Denver.

[Koby]

Eh, you want the fourth Silence. Really wanted the fifth in Denver.

Weston Brown got 9th in the Open yesterday with 5 Chant TES. Too bad he did draw-into-ninth math, otherwise he would have gotten there.

[Megadeus]

Maybe ill go find a couple of Orims chants sometime then for a 3-2 split

What would you cut for the fifth chant? Like a ponder? Or a duress?

[Koby]

Maybe ill go find a couple of Orims chants sometime then for a 3-2 split

What would you cut for the fifth chant? Like a ponder? Or a duress?

His list ran 3 Silence 2 Chant 3 Duress and 13 lands, but only 3 BWish & 3 Gitaxian Probe.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=52288

[Megadeus]

Not a fan of only 3 BW and 3 Probe. Probe might be my favorite card to see in my opener

[jandax]

Not a fan of only 3 BW and 3 Probe. Probe might be my favorite card to see in my opener

You'd probably be better off cutting a Mox.

[Pelikanudo]

Hi,
to those who may interest,

the other day I played a local small tournament and I faced as other days a well known boy playing BUG (Death Rites, dazes FoWs, tempo), he plays some variants Tempo, Control, and the boy plays well the deck he top eighted some tournaments with the deck.
I won the match up, and I 'd like to focus in some key things.

- The 2 games I won was bacause of Diminishng Returns.
- The only Card I sided was -1 C.Mox = +1 Karakas
- The list is for reference Old List with 5 Orims Chant (3 Silence - 2 Orims) 13 Lands , 1 Tendrils, 1 Preordain (Slot I Hate).
- He extirpated 3 silence having 1 Orims in hand.

First of All, D.R. is great, I love that card, but it is not only love,
with presence of Death Rite shamen, PiF is weaker, also the tempo deck's clock is fast so the chance of winning comes through Empty (to those who play), Quick A.N. or D.R., for me D.R. is beeing crucial in Tempo Disruption Decks based on D.R.S. that are making top8 in the meta lately.

Also for 2nd and 3rd games, winning in first turns is beeing exmely difficult because of Discard - Flustertorm effects, apart from the base - therefore my inevitable defense strategy (absurd -1 C.M = +1 Karakas). I love that match up almost as much as Canadian.

Notes and talking about above:
- I can guarranty that the concurrency of the likelihood of these scenarios for me to win that match up are reduced drastically If I play less than 4 B.W.
- I personally still play 5 Chant Effects and 4th duress side. Absolutly better 3 Silence 2 Orims instead of 2 Silence 3 Orims, vs S&T I side out exactly these Orims with Xantid.
- I assume loosing first games vs C.B., we now have A.D.
- I personally still play 4 C.Mox, 3 is ok, but please do not leave TES with less than 3 C.M.

Not a fan of only 3 BW and 3 Probe. Probe might be my favorite card to see in my opener

This is because you do not know the essence of the deck.
My favourite card to draw is by far B.W. however I recognize the strongests is I.T.

[Dark Ritual]

Notes and talking about above:
- I can guarranty that the concurrency of the likelihood of these scenarios for me to win that match up are reduced drastically If I play less than 4 B.W.
- I personally still play 5 Chant Effects and 4th duress side. Absolutly better 3 Silence 2 Orims instead of 2 Silence 3 Orims, vs S&T I side out exactly these Orims with Xantid.
- I assume loosing first games vs C.B., we now have A.D.
- I personally still play 4 C.Mox, 3 is ok, but please do not leave TES with less than 3 C.M.


This is because you do not know the essence of the deck.
My favourite card to draw is by far B.W. however I recognize the strongests is I.T.

Look, I don't mean to be a douche but here it goes. 'Essence of the deck'? What in the nine hells are you talking about? I actually despise drawing burning wish. Infernal tutor is almost always better and less awkward in terms of ritual mana. 4 Chrome mox is terrible, 4 suggests that you want to see one drawn before you cast ad nauseam or a bomb. I'd rather draw any other card in the deck over chrome mox except a land when I can't get hellbent with IT. 2 cards for one potentially colorless mana and sometimes one of the right color of mana is a terrible tradeoff in almost every circumstance prior to ad nauseam resolving when you have so many cards afterwards it generally doesn't matter. 7 initial mana sources post ad nauseam is fine enough in a deck with a curve as low as ours. Even if we hypothetically use 2 of those sources prior to ad nauseam 5 is still a very high number.

I'd board out orim's chant against show and tell only if I knew they were on the white leyline. Orim's chant is actually quite invaluable against sneak attack when they activate it, put in emrakul, then can't attack because I chanted them with kicker effectively time walking them, not taking 15, and not losing my entire board.

Also, you assume you'll lose game 1 against miracles? Nothing could be farther from the truth. We still have a shot at grabbing their disruption spells and going off. And if they don't know what deck we're on, they can very easily keep a weak "control all your creatures hand" and get a tendrils in their face for 20+ life. I know this from experience. In fact the last time I played against miracles I won game 1 and lost game 2 then drew game 3 but was likely losing the game if time hadn't been called.

I was sad when I saw Weston Brown at 9th with TES. Esperblade in the top 8 instead is always depressing typically since esperblade is perhaps the most generic deck in all of legacy and quite boring to watch except when one spirit token attacks for 14 turns straight FTW.

Inquisition is a card that is terrible right now considering maverick isn't out there. Rather just run therapy or duress.

[Megadeus]

I believe he is referring to me saying I dont like only 3 BW.

[Bryant Cook]

I still can't wrap my head around why people would want five Chant effects in a format where four Stifle and four Spell Snare isn't the norm. When I did it they were, right now we should be worried about Hymn to Tourach and Counterbalance.

[AriLax]

I still can't wrap my head around why people would want five Chant effects in a format where four Stifle and four Spell Snare isn't the norm. When I did it they were, right now we should be worried about Hymn to Tourach and Counterbalance.

I believe Brandon Adams actually recently suggested that Chant may just be bad right now and Therapy could easily be better. I think he may be right and I could see a higher fetch count, all discard list being reasonable for the current metagame.

[Final Fortune]

I believe Brandon Adams actually recently suggested that Chant may just be bad right now and Therapy could easily be better. I think he may be right and I could see a higher fetch count, all discard list being reasonable for the current metagame.

I tried 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Scalding Tarn, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 1 Badlands, 1 Island and 4 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy awhile ago, and while I liked having a more stable manabase between the fetchlands and on color disruption the biggest problem is supporting Abrupt Decay out of the SB where 3 Abrupt Decay and 1 Tropical Island is a lot more awkward in TES than it is in ANT because of your commitment to Rite of Flame and Burning Wish.

It was something like,

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Meltdown
2 Thoughtseize
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island

I cut an Infernal Tutor over a Burning Wish because it's still functional in the SB game 1, can be SBed in game 2 and is one of the most commonly SBed out cards in the primer after the 3rd Chrome Mox.

As a whole I think it should be decent in a metagame run by BUG variants.

[Lemnear]

I tried 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Scalding Tarn, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 1 Badlands, 1 Island and 4 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy awhile ago, and while I liked having a more stable manabase between the fetchlands and on color disruption the biggest problem is supporting Abrupt Decay out of the SB where 3 Abrupt Decay and 1 Tropical Island is a lot more awkward in TES than it is in ANT because of your commitment to Rite of Flame and Burning Wish.

It was something like,

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Meltdown
2 Thoughtseize
2 Karakas
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island

I imagine you could debate whether or not you should cut a Burning Wish before you cut an Infernal Tutor, but I liked being able to wish for Inernal Tutor game 1 and then being able to SB it back in game 2 as opposed to being stuck on 7 tutors the whole match with only 3 Burning Wish vs. decks like Goblins that bring in Chalice of the Void.

2 discard effects in SB are a waste here imo. Karakas looks strange w/o silences. I would at least change these 3 slots into chains of vapor and Switch the remaining thoughtseize into the 4th therapy. I would miss my 4th infernal in every Game 1. If they Board into Storm hate, boarding Out an infernal is reasonable but Game 1 you def. want raw power

Still bad feeling about your suggested fetch-to-Land-count :/

[Final Fortune]

I made a couple of mistakes porting Bryant's SB, I didn't realize he cut Karakas for Chain of Vapor at some point (I guess Maverick is dying off)

The fetchland to land ratio is fine, you want 8 fetchlands for Brainstorm way more than you want 5+ land drops in a Storm deck.

I don't mind SBing out Infernal Tutor game 1 because I think it's a better Burning Wish target than either Past in Flames or Ill Gotten Gains so it saves SB space, reduces the average casting cost of the deck and gives you your 13th land and a basic Island for manabase stability vs RUG. Obviously you're not as fast vs Goblins with only 7 tutors, but all of the decks you want 8 tutors against you face roll anyway and all of the decks you want to SB a tutor against you have to fight tooth and nail.

I don't think the SB discard is a waste, you want the ability to choose between Thoughtseize for certainty and Cabal Therapy for value game 1, and game 2 you want to be able to SB out a Chrome Mox for a discard spell vs. a lot of blue decks. I might try cutting 1 Thoughtseize for a Swamp and SBing out a Chrome Mox for a Swamp vs RUG, Merfolk etc. and see how that goes. It's also possibly a 3rd Chain of Vapor, now that I think about it -3 Cabal Therpay for +3 Chain of Vapor makes a lot of sense vs. Goblins if you're on the play.

Edit: No the 2nd Thoughtseize makes sense, I cut 1 Empty the Warrens and 1 Chrome Mox pretty consistently post-board.

[Pelikanudo]

I tried 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Scalding Tarn, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 1 Badlands, 1 Island and 4 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy awhile ago, and while I liked having a more stable manabase between the fetchlands and on color disruption the biggest problem is supporting Abrupt Decay out of the SB where 3 Abrupt Decay and 1 Tropical Island is a lot more awkward in TES than it is in ANT because of your commitment to Rite of Flame and Burning Wish.

It was something like,

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Meltdown
2 Thoughtseize
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island

I cut an Infernal Tutor over a Burning Wish because it's still functional in the SB game 1, can be SBed in game 2 and is one of the most commonly SBed out cards in the primer after the 3rd Chrome Mox.

As a whole I think it should be decent in a metagame run by BUG variants.

Hi FinalFortune!

I thoutgh for a while in swithcing to Therapy, but I dismissed, I can win RUG only if I play Orims effects, and same seems to be applicable to BUG match ups, it is because of mainly:
- makes D.Return stronger because after a Reesolved Orims, opponent can do nothing
- it is better vs RUG (avoiding everithing except FoW)
- Avoids Extirpate effects

As I said, the BUG match up I won was exactly because of D.Returns, both games, I do not see much more chances to win a match up like this (D.R.S. , Hymns, Tempo, T.Seize, Fluter from Side, etc) Maybe Empty Base - Althoutgh this is not applicable for 2nd and 3rd games.

A note, ussually the BUG opponent plays some Duress effects, in here the brainstorm is crucial, youi need to hold both Orims and business, and the BUG opponent ussually takes out Orims effect (he also plays Daze, S.Pierce, T.Seize, Fluster) He even extirpated me 3 Silence and won a match up with 1 of the 2 Orims Chan I have in base...

I put more value in Orims only because they make D.Return stronger against BUG Tempo - Control variants decks, it is also usefull vs Snapcaster.

Regarding your list, I'd try to make space among these lands to 4 Gemstone Mire, that badlands seems horrible.

[AriLax]

I tried 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Scalding Tarn, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 1 Badlands, 1 Island and 4 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy awhile ago, and while I liked having a more stable manabase between the fetchlands and on color disruption the biggest problem is supporting Abrupt Decay out of the SB where 3 Abrupt Decay and 1 Tropical Island is a lot more awkward in TES than it is in ANT because of your commitment to Rite of Flame and Burning Wish..

I'm pretty sure I would still play Gemstone Mine in some quantity. I would likely just start with -2 City, -4 Silence, +3 Therapy, +1 Duress, +2 Fetch from the current list if I was trying something like that out. Going to the full fetch mana base really doesn't make sense in a Rite of Flame list.

[Final Fortune]

I'm pretty sure I would still play Gemstone Mine in some quantity. I would likely just start with -2 City, -4 Silence, +3 Therapy, +1 Duress, +2 Fetch from the current list if I was trying something like that out. Going to the full fetch mana base really doesn't make sense in a Rite of Flame list.

I don't think you need gold lands in order to support Rite of Flame and Burning Wish, between 8 fetch lands, 2 dual lands and 4 Lotus Petal I've been able to produce red mana consistently - it's green mana followed by blue, black and red mana that's been problematic.

@Pelikanudo

I'm not as concerned with protecting Diminishing Returns with Silence vs BUG because I can Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor game 1 or Empty the Warrens, furthermore every discard spell they play is one less counter spell they play so Diminishing Returns should be better vs BUG than it is vs RUG and if they play Force of Will, Daze, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach and Vendilion Clique all in the same deck then I expect they'll be at the bottom tables for the majority of the tournament when they realize Goblins is a deck.

If I were going to play Gemstone Mine, then I'd just cut the Island and play Silence instead. I think you're talking out of your ass regarding Badlands, stop and think about what your color requirments are going to be vs. Miracles when you have to fetch Tropical Island for Abrupt Decay or vs RUG when you have to fetch Island for Ponder. This isn't a conventionl TES list where you can tap Gemstone Mine for your color of choice, you actually have to make decisions about what lands you're going to search for and Badlands is a necessary evil - and Badlands isn't nearly as bad in TnT as it is in TES when you're playing -4 Silence, +3 Cabal Therapy and +1 Duress.

There's a trade off in the manabases and disruption suites, if you want to be able to disrupt your opponent before the turn you go off, if you want to be able to cast your disruption off of Dark Ritual, if you want to be able to imprint black mana on Chrome Mox, if you want to be able to protect your land drops from Wasteland and if you want to be able to shuffle your deck after you cast Brainstorm then you have to take a hit some where else - you're going to get fetchlands Stifled and you're going to draw Badlands in your opening 7. Gemstone Mine is by no means a bad card and maybe there's room for fiddling with the fetchland and Gemstone Mine count, but I don't think it's really clear which is better than the other. Gemstone Mine is going to feel superficially stronger than a fetchland when you're goldfishing, which is something you should be weary of.

@thread

Do you guys really think Past in Flames and Ill Gotten Gains are worth the SB space after removing Tendrils of Agony from the MD and the popularity of Deathrite Shaman?