Huh? I don't think that the cards put into play with Hyper Genesis/Eureka would trigger Profusion since they aren't "played".I found out that Null Profusion wins against Genesis lol. He casts his hand I just plop about 2/3 of my deck down and win on my next turn.
Even if it did,
you wouldn't draw anything until after Genesis resolved, so max you would get like 7 cards...which could not be put into play again since Genesis had already gone away.Anything that triggers during the resolution of this will wait to be put on the stack until everything is put onto the battlefield and resolution is complete. The player whose turn it is will put all of his or her triggered abilities on the stack in any order, then each other player in turn order will do the same. (The last ability put on the stack will be the first one that resolves.)
Arianhod I have to say that your post about Nic-Fit as a deck was fantastic. I Just want to say great job on all the work you've done for this deck. I hope I can contribute something now too. In the post you were talking about a dedicated gifts deck and I figured I'd give it a try as I've always had the idea myself.
Rainbow Fit:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
1 Life from the Loam
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Academy Ruins
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Eternal Witness
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Brainstorm
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Chromatic Lantern
1 Thragtusk
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Griselbrand
2 Coiling Oracle
(By the way, how do you add deck tags on here?)
I tested with this deck for about 3 hours today and I want to say that it's been performing pretty well overall. I know for a fact that the manabase is not good and needs to be tuned A LOT more. I had a hard time coming up with some of my choices because once you're playing 4 colours it's very hard to narrow down what card you want for a specific role. As the first reanimation target I started off with an Empyrial Archangel. My train of thought was that she wrecked the current BUG, Jund, and RUG decks that have a hard time dealing 8 points of damage to me in one swing. After some testing it seemed like she didn't really do enough though. Interesting thought but it didn't really work. So I decided to start running Iona and Griselbrand in her place and man have I been pleased. Iona is great against decks that are two colours or less (which should go without saying). Griselbrand is for the BUG matchup. They usually have a lot of ways to deal with a threat and I wanted some value out of my reanimation target if it got killed on the spot. Running two huge bombs doesn't really scare me when I'm also running brainstorm. I added the value package in for gifts, just in case we don't want to go for reanimation. I think Sigarda is a must have in any Nic-Fit deck running green and white. She is an absolute house. I even had a game today where I didn't lose to Emrakul because I had her out. I would like to explore a red splash as well but I don't know what I'd really put in it. I appreciate any feedback and would like to make this deck better.
Yeah my opponent said it did and I wanst going to argue so I just :played a ton of stuff. I swore that nothing triggered off of hypergenesis until it was done resolving but he was the one with the deck so I just went with it since hey it meant I won.
Tried out Arianrhod's Future fit list real quick on cockatrice. Not much to report yet, other than getting to troll a SNT player who herp-derped a turn 1 GB, by winning game 2 with IOK turn 1, Therapy, Explorer, Therapy FB, IOK, 2nd Therapy on turn 2. Then game 3 stole his Emrakul with a sower off a SNT. UMAD?
I don't have much to say about the deck yet, but I do believe you'll need 4 thoughtseize (or IOK) in the board along with the 4th negate. i know you want to have a robust board for death wish targets, but we need all we can get against unfair decks like that.
Nah, it's not built with a Wish concept in mind. The idea is more like....you know how Esperblade decks in particular have sideboards with a lot of seemingly random shit that just tunes the deck towards certain matchups? Something like that. The only legit wish target that is never meant to be boarded in is the Tendrils, for the Helm combo. Everything else should be legit sideboard options -- sure, sometimes you'll wish for them too, but that's intended more as corner cases. It's definitely not a "wishboard" in the same way as like Scapewish for example.Originally Posted by Star|Scream
That reminds me: I'm gonna be testing my BUG list at my local Legacy tournament on 2/14/2013 (why that late? to get practice in right before SCG Cincy). But so far in casual play, I've found the following true:
Dig Fit, whether with counterspells or not, has the most contingency plans I've seen in regards to maintaining control. Graveyard, battlefield, library, hand ... even extra deck if you're running a wish or the stack if you're running counterspells. There are so many options available that you have to constantly reevaluate the gamestate and determine what options you have, what priority each of those options have, and how to access those options best.
My ideas on this approach:
- keep the White splash to an absolute minimum. Flashback Unburial Rites, nothing else, no Sigarda, no Rector, one Plains, 2 white duals. If you use Gifts you already have enough power, you need consistency.
- more Abrupt Decay. Three or four. Or you have big trouble with aggressive decks. Especially sniping Deathrite Shaman is super important if your plan is to Gifts for Unburial Rites.
- 4th Brainstorm over Sensei's Top. Brainstorm is better than Top, especially with cards like Griselbrand and Iona in the deck.
- I think Coiling Oracle is not good enough. The odds of hitting a land blindly are too low and setting it up with Top or Brainstorm is not worth any investment. More Tribe Elders for guaranteed T3 Gifts instead.
- Gifts on Loam, Urborg and Raven's Crime is a great way to destroy your opponent's hand.
- Terastodon is a good option to make late GSZ's as powerful as this deck needs them.
I am still playing around with Rector Fit and Deathrite Shaman isn't an issue anymore. I think I am use to playing around it now. I just played against 2 Jund decks on MTGO and went 2-0 both games. Almost all games I get below 10. Instead of playing around Deathrite Shaman I focus on stealing their lightning bolts. Most jund players just want to kill you as fast as possible. Have to careful how you play. I keep Rector and sac outlet in hand until I can play and sac same turn. Or I use top to keep it on top of my deck. Has been working pretty good so far. I think the switching to Deathrite Shaman over Scavenging Ooze is a big plus. I may not be able to abuse Rector as much but I slaughter people with Recurring Nightmare and Sun Titan with Deed.
I am really loving Recycle, I only got to abuse it once so far. Had 2 tops in play and filtered through my deck for almost my whole army. I don't believe how powerful this car is with recurring nightmare and Eternal Witness.
Recycling does rock =)Play it, you 60-card goons! It is good :O
But I guess you've all been told conscription is bad and recycling rocks : /
The issue with Conscription in a Rector setup such as mine is that you rarely have multiple dudes in play. Obviously if you get to live the dream and suit up Sigarda, then that's just game. But more often, you set off Rector when she's the only critter in play -- or at best there's like an Explorer or a Tribe-Elder or something durdly which they can just Abrupt Decay and not care.
Note: I do agree that Conscription is a powerful option, as is Angelic Destiny. But they're more suited for a more creature-heavy version, probably with token-producing planeswalkers as extra bodies to suit up. It doesn't really fit into "traditional" Rector that well, if that makes sense.
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Goin' brewin'. Should have the other experimentals by the end of the day.
Well then I definitely suggest at least 4 targeted hand disruption and 4 negate--unless you come up with better tech against combo. Also don't forget that cool extirpate/therapy interaction from a few pages back.
Okay, so in brewing, I've come to a few conclusions.
Chromatic Fit does not work. It ends up being a much, much worse version of OmniTell, because at the point at which you're 5-color, you have Rector->Omniscience.
However, I did note something interesting about Nic Fit as an archetype which may be useful in the future: all of its "power cards" are 4-drops.
Red: Huntmaster
Blue: Gifts
White: Rector
It may be that Chromatic Fit is viable by combining two of the above, but a true 5-color list is not possible IMO. There just isn't deck space for everything, and, as previously said, it just turns into a worse version of OmniTell.
Friendly Fit should not be BUG. It took me about fifteen minutes of brewing to realize that anything BUG-colored Friends could do, GBW-colored Friends could do better. The power players are Elspeth, Garruk Relentless or Primal Hunter, Karn Liberated, and Liliana of the Veil. Jace TMS would be nice, as well, but he's not worth his UU cost, and he's not better than Elspeth. Also, staying in GBW allows you to Rector into Doubling Season -- which most of those walkers make tokens, as well. Additionally, you can run Lingering Souls (because Liliana and Doubling Season synergies), and THEN you can also run Collective Blessing (or Eldrazi Conscription).
So, with two of the three possibilities ruled out, I turned to Chronos Fit (which I'm renaming to ChronoFit, because it sounds better).
Here, I struck gold. I'm not sure which is better between ChronoFit and FutureFit, but I think that both have seeds of awesome present within.
The originary list:
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Wood Elves
3x Eternal Witness
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Damnation
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Time Warp
2x Simic Charm
2x Brainstorm
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
2x Panoptic Mirror
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Cabal Coffers
3x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
3x Forest
3x Island
2x Swamp
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
A few words about it.
The concept of ChronoFit is to cheat time. Your goal is to eventually take infinite turns, either by abusing Panoptic Mirror or Eternal Witness. Witness is "easier," but also requires more work: you can bounce Witness with Jace (one Jace buys you 3 turns), you can bounce it with Simic Charm, or you can loop it through Recurring Nightmare (which -can- go infinite). Panoptic Mirror is the easy route, since all you have to do is imprint Warp on the Mirror and away you go.
Note: I'm planning on having the other 2 copies of Mirror in the sideboard, so that when/if people bring in graveyard hate (/vs Deathrite decks), you have extra non-graveyard dependent ways of winning.
Also note: a trick with Mirror. You can respond to the Mirror's upkeep trigger by imprinting something on it, which the Mirror will then copy when the trigger resolves. Ergo, you can cast Mirror, pass turn, then untap, upkeep, imprint Time Warp, resolve trigger casting Time Warp, and go infinite.
The creature-base is almost exclusively ramp dudes, with Primeval and Thragtusk being the only real beatsticks in the deck. This is because you need a minimum of 8 mana to Witness+Warp with a Jace out. Mirror is also pricy, and you want to make sure that you get up a lot of mana in this deck. Once you have infinite turns, you can win with any leftover Jaces, Witness beatdown, or whatever. If Coffers/Urborg does end up getting cut, once of those slots will likely go to a Creeping Tar Pit, since I'm not sure that the deck is entirely capable of winning via infinite turns that easily. It PROBABLY can, but I don't want it getting into awkward situations and strange boardstates where it can't win even with all the time in the world.
A few things I'm not happy with ... as noted, the wincon suite probably could use refining. I'm actually furious at Green Sun's Zenith in this deck, because while I acknowledge that it's worth including, I dislike that you basically can't imprint it on Mirror to any effect (X is always 0). I also want more spells overall / diversity in the spells, with an eye towards making Mirror for value better. Mirror + Damnation sounds amazing, though. I suspect that most decks would just crumble before that.
I also think that I would like another Simic Charm or two, even. Simic Charm is your "counterspell" in the deck. If they try to blow up your Mirror, you can respond with Charm. If they try to Pulse your Jace, Charm it. If they are trying to Swords your Witness in response to Jace bouncing, Charm it. I don't expect the Giant Growth to happen often (if ever), but both the bounce and hexproof modes are amazing for this deck.
Originally, I had an Alchemist's Refuge and Seedborn Muse within the deck, with the thought being that you could cheat on mana by using your opponents turn as well. I ruled this as being dramatically too cute, though, and cut it. Coffers/Urborg was intended to feed that engine, however, I left it alone for now because Nightmare looping a Witness to Time Warp is going to need a -lot- of black and colorless mana. Pending testing, that engine may get cut as well, which would probably lead to Prime Time getting cut too.
So yeah, there's the result of my brewing. I have two avenues to look into now, and, again, if anyone wants to help, they are more than welcome to do so.
-------------------
Regarding Future Fit trying to do too many things@Architect --
Yes and no. The Glissa/Trinket Mage package and the Helm combo are highly synergistic on a number of levels. Both want Academy Ruins somewhere in the deck, for example. Time will tell if the packages are a little too involved, perhaps -- but I think that there is merit in having them in the same shell together. It's worth testing, I'd say.
Regarding the three new versions:
1. RainbowFit - I have to say I tried a 5-Color OmniList as well, and ... well ... you're right: it don't work. However, I think you're a little too hooked on the four-drop concept, Arianrhod. While Huntmaster is great, I have to say that Burning Wish would be the real choice for a 4 or 5 color list. Blue I'm not too sure on, but that's because blue hasn't been ironed out completely yet.
2. ChronoFit - I like the idea, but for some reason I feel that you could trim a lot of space simply by going infinite mana with Palinchron and Recurring Nightmare, and then either infinite recursion with Eternal Witness, infinite lifegain and tokens with Thragtusk, or something equally lulzy. It's not infinite turns exactly, but it sure as hell feels like it.
3. FriendlyFit - Don't forget the awesome synergy between Deed, PWs, and Standstill (its a major reason to go blue in SuperFriends) ^_^ also, I'm curious: why Doubling Season?
Ill give it a try when I get a chance. Most BUG nic fit decks seem kind of boring to me but if I can play trinket mages, or future sights I'm in.
I like the idea of a token based BGW superfriends deck. I've brewed up lists for that before, but never really played them. Im might revist that no.
@ChronoFit: Only 2 brainstorms and no tops doesnt seem like it would work too well. TBH I dont know what to cut, but theres got to be 4 BS or 3 tops in there I think. Also, I dont think finding a way to win with infinite turns would be a problem. Jace, could always do it. Also, eventually you will see a damnation/pulse to kill their army of dudes/moat that is preventing you from attacking and then you can just win with ewit and vet beats.
EDIT: Also, Ill be unleashing the fury of the angry mountains tomorrow at Jupiter.
2. The problem with Palinchron is you have to necessarily be all-in on it. The idea behind working with Time Warp is that it should be like Scapewish -- it's doing something you're already doing anyway, and it just happens to turn it into a combo. Scapewish is ramping because it wants to ramp. Scapeshift just happens to make it a combo. ChronoFit is designed with the same concept in mind -- you're Time Warping because you want to Time Warp, you're playing Jace because you want to play Jace, and so on. It just so happens that when you put all of these elements together, you can set up some truly degenerate stuff. I'm sure ChronoFit will have its turn 3 wins just like Scapewish does -- but there'll probably also be games where you're just sitting there Damnationing every turn while you +2 Jace...or whatever. Just as sometimes, Scapewish just sits there and flips Huntmasters back and forth.
3. I don't think that Standstill is enough of a reason to go blue, though -- not over Elspeth, Lingering Souls, and the attending shenanigans. Also maybe Gideon.
Doubling Season because of two reasons: when a planeswalker comes into play, it enters with twice the counters. This means that Elspeth, Liliana/Veil, and Garruk Primal all enter with their Ultimates enabled. You can play any of them are just crack their ult the turn they come down, which is obviously insanely powerful. This is really derpy with Garruk PH, in particular, because Doubling Season has another effect: it doubles the tokens that they put into play. So, if you have let's say 7 lands in play. You play and ult Garruk PH. You get 14 6/6 tokens. For 2GGG. Elspeth +1 makes 2 dudes. And so on. Note that Season does not double the number of counters added from using their abilities. +1 is still +1.
By contrast, even if you added blue via Lantern, say, Jace would come in with 6 counters, out of 12 needed. Woohoo. The junk-colored walkers just plain better.
*Like*
And yeah, I wanted more manipulation/CA in the deck, too. I don't really want Tops, though, because, again, I want to make Mirror for value better. Maybe a few Tops, cut the Brainstorms, and add in some serious draw power -- like the new Urban Evolution thing, or some other Draw 3. Of course, Brainstorms go better with Oracle of Mul Daya, because wombo-combo.
After brewing that and trying to brew like 3 more decks, though, my head was hurting a bit so I just kind of gave up and said fuck it, I'll post it as is. I am absolutely 100% convinced that there is something of merit to be found within that concept. But the shell definitely needs tuning.
Chronofit does seem really good. Like you said, like scapeshift its doing something you already want to do and then sometimes you get to go "oops I win". None of the combo pieces are bad, like how scapeshifts combo pieces (ramp cards lol) are always useful even if you cant combo out.
I know you love gifts, but what about fact or fiction for its raw drawing power? You're pretty safe putting jaces and mirrors in the GY to be witnessed back later youd just have to make sure to get the Time warp pile against DRS decks.
Another Idea (probably a bad one): promise of power, which has the benefit of being the wincon itself.
You can pay additional costs when you use Penoptic Mirror so I was also thinking Skeletal Scrying or Necrologia might be options. Im not sure if necrologia works though...
Just some food for thought when your feeling up for more brewing.
Uh, Skeletal Scrying wouldn't work because of the X in its mana cost. I also have no idea regarding Necrologia. I'm GUESSING that it wouldn't work, but I dunno for sure.
FoF wouldn't be horrible. I don't think I'd run Gifts in ChronoFit, though. Even with the high Witness count, there's just too many things that could go wrong. Also space concerns -- which Gifts likes having a bunch of attending cards.
Promise of Power is legit, but hard to cast. I used to run Promise in Nic Fit like a year ago, and I mean, when you resolved it, you just felt dirty. It's a solid option. Triple black is so miserable, though, that I basically relegated it mentally to if I ever wanted to derp with a straight G/B list for some reason.
I'm gonna get playgroup testing in tomorrow with the BUG Chrono list & go from there...But I am very sure that Coffers/Urborg can be cut. I like 2 Tarpits or 1 Tower/1 Tarpit instead. The question is if we want to keep Primeval Titan or go for something like Simic Sky Swallower/Eldrazi/Gaea's Revenge to end the game...Simic Sky Swallower should be the best out of them? Revenge's haste is a nice ambush against PW's, but SSS got the trample...
about GSZ: Yes it's probably not a deck for Zenith, it runs 3 Eternal Witness anyway
A card like Urban Evolution seems really good here, right? Not sure if the explore effect is worth the 5 mana though
Yeah. I mean, Urban Evolution is strictly better than like Jace's Ingenuity or Tidings, which is why I mentioned it.
I'm in agreement regarding Coffers/Urborg/Titan. 1 Tar Pit/1 Tower is probably the way to go. Titan, I dunno. Like, if we cut GSZ, then all of the ramp dudes get a lot worse, and we don't have room in the deck to go up to like 3 Sakuras, 3 Elders, 3 Oracles, etc. I'm not sure where to go at the moment with it.
Not Superfriends but is tokens, I ran the following on Wednesday:
3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lingering Souls
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Starved Rusalka
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Collective Blessing
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recycle
1 Humility
That wasn't quite the list I had intended to run but apparently my Garruk Wildspeakers have taken a walk.
Small event, so only 3 rounds. I took minimal notes, but from what I recall:
Round 1 Merfolk W 2-1:
G1 - he vialed in a boatload of dudes, while I got nuthin'.
G2 - Collective Blessing + Lingering Souls beatdown
G3 - see G2
Round 2 Enchantress L 0-2
G1 - he goes off T3. I may have misplayed T1, but not entirely sure. I'm on the draw. He goes Forest, Wild Growth, pass. I put him on Enchantress (duh) while I have Veteran + Therapy in my hand. I thought about going Therapy for Argothian Enchantress but instead go Veteran pass. T2 he plays Argothian. My T2 I Therapy, can't recall what I named but I missed. I see a hand of GSZ, 2x Utopia Sprawl, Wild Growth. I flashback on the GSZ. So possibly two misplays. On T1, should I have gone w/ Therapy? On T2, was the right take GSZ, or should I have taken the Sprawls? It's bad either way. If I take the GSZ he plays the two sprawls and gets the triggers off his Enchantress. If I take the Sprawls he zeniths an enchantress, plays Growth and gets two triggers.
G2 - I blow his board up twice w/ Deed but the game just goes on and on until he is able to Living Wish for Emrakul and cast it. Controlling the board w/o having a clock really sucks.
Round 3 The Rock L 0-2
G1 - This was a 35 minute slog. He was able to make me discard my Blessing (damn you Liliana!) and I eventually had to play the Humility to avoid death by KotR. So neither of us had a clock and we both had active SDT. It was as nightmarish as a Nic Fit / Miracles match. After what seemed like a million turns he finally finds a vindicate for the Humility.
G2 - I have no idea what happened in this game. My notes show his life going 20 -> 18 -> 16 which is sorta interesting since I have no 2-power guys. Double souls beats I guess. Meanwhile mine goes 20 -> 19 -> 11 -> dead.
So changes:
1) Get a pair of Wildspeakers in there. Losing the Blessing (or never finding it) really sucks since souls by themselves just don't do enough damage. But souls w/ +3/+3 are really tough to beat. (And going T1 Vet -> T2 Therapy + Souls -> T3 Garruk + Souls fb -> T4 16 points of flying damage seems like a good thing). Should be a PW mix of 2 Garruk, 1 Elspeth I think.
2) Not sure why I don't have a Witness in there, but I should.
3) Not being able to Recycle against The Rock really sucks. The ability Hymn (or Lili + Thoughtseize) basically means you can't play it. (And getting Hymned to take Blessing + Rector and leaving Recycle in your hand is the worst feeling ever). Thinking about adding Oracle of Mul Daya. It's Zenithable, which is good, is a partial solution to the problem, and seems pretty damn awesome w/ Recycle anyway. And of course no Recycle w/o an active Top to get you around the discard problem.
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