Just got through testing some tonight against a friend playing Esper, and wow is Sinkhole a great sideboard addition. I still hate having Tombstalker hit by Swords, but other than that this deck is just crazy good most of the time. I won 10 out of 16 matches using the most popular list:
4 Goyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tombstalker
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Sylvan Library
For my sideboard, I am going with
4 Sinkhole
2 Disfigure
1 Darkblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Submerge
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Life From the Loam
I really just feel unsafe without at least 2 dedicated graveyard hate cards in any sideboard. Shaman does a lot of heavy lifting, but I still love my Crypts, call them my security blanket if you will. Loam, Sinkholes and Wastelands just wreck strategies, I do love me some land destruction. I had previously tried to run Bobs instead of Tombstalkers, but it is clear that Bob is just not enough pressure for a tempo build. Bob is just better suited to mid-range builds I think. The one question I had about the mana-base is do we have to run Tropical Island? I almost always want either a Bayou, or an Underground Sea. Can this deck run 4 Underground Seas and 3 Bayous as it's lands? We still have 4 blue sources for Daze, is this enough?
It's true that this deck often wants BB, but even so, having a Tropical Island in there is a nice option to have on occasion.Originally Posted by Amazing Larry
Suppose your opening hand is the following:
Fetch
Wasteland
Ponder
Daze
Tarmogoyf
Delver of Secrets
FoW
(First of all this hand is pretty good.) Here I think Tropical Island would be your ideal fetch target: it still enables you the possibility of using Daze, as well as casting a turn 2 Tarmogoyf.
Another example that frequently comes up is against Wasteland decks. Suppose you have an Underground Sea and a Bayou already in play, and that you want to crack your third fetch in order to play another spell that turn. Rather than fetching up another of the two, Tropical would give you access to all 3 colors even if they happen to draw into a Wasteland.
It's really all situational though, but I think having the option there, even if it ends up screwing you in 1/1000 games because you couldn't cast a BB spell, makes it worth it.
This is my exact list minus the 2 crypts, and with a tarpit over the 2nd disfigure. Instead of crypt I am playing Grafdigger's Cage, since it seems to be the most powerful single card against Dredge and also can come in against Natural Order elves. Not sure about that yet but it's what I'm experimenting with.
At the GP I wasn't expecting any dredge at all, and was rewarded, but at an SCG event I would definitely pack a bit of hate for it.
they haunt minds...
I played that list -1 Library, -1 Goyf, +1 Tombstalker, +1 Ooze, and with a sideboard of
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Thoughtseize
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Submerge
3 Divert
1 Sylvan Library
to 6-2 for 16th place at the SCG: Dallas event. I went 0-2 Jund, 2-1 UR Delver, 0-2 Know and Tell, 2-1 Jund, 2-1 Dredge, 2-1 Jund, 2-0 Esper Stoneblade, and 2-0 Merfolk. I think Know and Tell should be in my favor, but he killed me in game one when I kept a really good hand against anything but combo, and in game two his hand ended up with more countermagic than mine, which happens.
The Ooze was fine all day. It was better than Goyf in a game that I lost, worse than Goyf in a game that I won, and it won me a match against Dredge. Saturday night there seemed to be a lot of Reanimator in the convention center so I wanted an additional maindeck card against them.
The Submerges and Diverts were for Jund, BUG, and RUG, and I was pretty happy with them. I played against Jund three matches and went 2-1, and the Submerges won me a game in both of the matches I won. I never got to live the dream of Diverting a second turn Hymn or aim an Abrupt Decay back at an opposing Goyf, but I did Divert a Thoughtseize against Jund.
I still think that the Jund matchup is really ugly. The games I won involved being on the play and going Hymn, Daze your Hymn, Hymn, or my opponent struggling with mana development because he was playing the Punishing Fire build, getting to cast multiple Submerges, and/or high-powered draws on my part. Is the Sinkhole plan more effective than the Submerge and Divert plan in this matchup?
Last edited by AngryTroll; 01-23-2013 at 11:33 AM.
InfoNinjas
That does make sense, I honestly have not played this deck much against other wasteland decks. I'll probably stick with 1 Tropical, no reason to rock that boat, I think.
@nitewolf: Sinkhole was a sweet call. I'm just ecstatic to be able to break them out again, Beta Sinkholes look marvelous. I finally gave up trying to fit Stifle in the 75. With Hymn instead of spell pierce/snare Sinkhole is just better. This deck is definitely fun to play.
What are your experiences with sinkhole in other matchups, when do you board it in and when do you leave it on the bench?
I have been brewing a bit with Spike and we think some combination of threads of disloyalty, kitchen finks, disfigure and submerge in the sideboard might be the key to winning the jund matchup. I have further changed my maindeck removal suite to 3 decay, 2 dismember, 1 disfigure to combat all the deathrite shamans. Let me know if you gain some knowledge from testing the matchup.
Has anyone tested heavy against Jund ? Thoughts on that match up ?
I do sometimes feel like 4 Decay is too much 2cmc removal, and that some more 1cmc stuff would be good, especially on the draw. Not sure if I would want the split of 2 dismember 1 disfigure though. I wish they would hurry up and print a decent 1cmc black removal spell for once, it's kinda obnoxious that White gets StP and PtE while Black is left with much more situational options...
I think Sinkhole should come in against Stoneblade for certain, this is the deck I've tested most against. I would imagine Sinkhole would be effective against Miracles, and combo decks to slow them down. I'd like to test them against Junk/Jund, although with opposing Shamans, Sinkhole's effectiveness may be lessened.
Tell me about it. How does the color of death in magic get the most conditional an expensive removal? Something like Vendetta without the non-black restriction might work?
I am working on my sideboard for my local meta (I see Junk, Belcher, lots of Blade, Miracles, Reanimator, and Sneak/Show but no GY combo and not much tribal) and I am not convinced that I want to buy Sinkholes just yet, hence their exclusion. I am playing the standard MD. Here is where I am at currently:
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Disfigure
1 Darkblast
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Engineered Plague
2 Flusterstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
Against aggro/creature decks I have Pulse, Disfigure, Jitte, and maybe Engineered Plague to bring in for my Forces and maybe a Daze and/or Decay. For control my Forces and Tombstalkers come out for JTMS, Clique, Loam, and then depending on the deck maybe Grip, Plague, and Jitte as well. Combo seems a tad weak because I will generally want to cut the Dismember, 1-2 Decay, and Tombstalkers, and maybe Library for Flusterstorms, Cliques, and depending on the deck Grips, Plagues, or Pulse.
You want to beat reanimator and don't have any sideboard GY hate? I would definitely consider a Tormod's Crypt and/or Grafdigger's Cage.
For the other combo decks, you probably want some Thoughtseizes or Spell Pierces. Flusterstorm is pretty good, but if you really wanna beat Belcher, Mindbreak Trap is an option to consider.
Diabolic Edict might be a decent removal card to be playing. It can come in against Junk as well as Show and Tell.
A single Pithing Needle might be nice to have. Deals with SDT, planeswalkers, Charbelcher, etc.
I prefer Cage over Crypt because it also shuts down Esper and doesn't reduce Deathrite targets. I could see cutting a Grip to fit it in.
What are people's thoughts on jace in the board? I know that Dan mentioned that trying to out Jace your opponents was a losing proposition. I could see those becoming Seizes as that works against combo and control.
I prefer Flusterstorm over Pierce because the power level is higher. It is less flexible but it is much harder for combo to play around.
Jitte has always seemed a little random to me but the power level is pretty high. However I may want to cut it for a second cage or a crypt.
So far I am thinking:.
-2 Jace
-1 Grip
-1 Darkblast
+2 Seize
+1 Edict
+1 Cage
Looking for thoughts on sideboard in general and esp for Jund.
Engineered plague for human blanks thier bobs, and perish kills everything else. Divert in sideboard since its great against esper and rug too?
My meta is sneak attack, jund, junk, enchantress, stoneblade and burn.
How are you guys beating burn?
Sideboard Chill and counter their higher impact cards. The ones that do more than 3 damage... Flame Rift, Fireblast, and Price of Progress (also don't play too hard into Price).
Legacy
Grixis Delver
Vintage
Mono Mentor
Team Leovold
Or run Nourish? But yeah, Chill's pretty great too.
IMHO Diabolic Edict is only okay against Junk, but doing double duty against Sneak is very good.
-Matt
Btw, do you think it would be a good idea to run 2x Negate or Maelstrom Pulse in board instead of Jaces? IMHO Jace doesn't suit this deck very well..
I too am not a big fan of jace. 4 mana for this deck just doesn't happen.
I rather just get a pithing needle or maelstrom pulse.
Jace is awesome and hitting 4 mana is pretty easy with this deck. For me its still the best card against any control deck and jace also dominates the mirror match. I've never seen a BUG player winning through a resolved Jace on the other side. I suggest giving him a try, you'll be amazed :)
I have to disagree
This deck runs 20 lands...some 19 lands.
9 are fetches, 4 are wastelands, 7 our duals. Of the duals, only 5 are blue mana.
Its too easy to get wasteland out for you to get to 4 mana. Its also too mana intensive when you start wastelanding. This deck needs double black, then with jace, you will need double blue.
of course you do have deathrite shaman, but lets not talk about it being killed out early.
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