All B/R update speculation.

[Arsenal]

Lol at ppl asking for DRS to be banned. Reminds me of the old "OMG, BAN LACKEY/GOYF/BRAINSTORM NOW!!" chants. Let's let the format settle (we've gotten good cards in almost every set for a while now) and see where things stand.

[Darkenslight]

Lol at ppl asking for DRS to be banned. Reminds me of the old "OMG, BAN LACKEY/GOYF/BRAINSTORM NOW!!" chants. Let's let the format settle (we've gotten good cards in almost every set for a while now) and see where things stand.

This is my sentiment, as well. DRS doesn't need banning. The closest card to receiving the Banhammer is probably S'N'T, and even then, that's mainly because it hacks at mana costs and laughs at them hilariously. Maybe that will change if the meta stagnates into Deathrite/NOT Deathrite over the next year.

[catmint]

Show&tell is surely fine now. Sneak attack and omniscience had their hypes, but the format handled it easily - even with midrange decks on the rise and counterspells declining. I don't even think they need to ban show&tell if they print a strictly better emrakul which has awesome and haste. If they would print something with "when it enters the battlefield you win the game" it is probably time for show&tell to go. Until then let's talk about unbannings rather than bannings.

[lordofthepit]

I only remember Koby, aggro_zombies, CorpT and catmint talking crap about shaman.

I didn't think it was good either. I was wrong: it is and will continue to be a Legacy staple. But I still think it's getting overplayed: it's a good card but not one you just jam into every deck and certainly not a reason to play a 4-color abomination.

I think it will have a trajectory similar to Snapcaster Mage. Clearly a Legacy staple for the forseeable future, but no longer a card you jam into decks that happen to be on-color.

As far as banning it, no way. It's by no means degenerate or even that powerful to be even remotely considered.

[lavafrogg]

I didn't think it was good either. I was wrong: it is and will continue to be a Legacy staple. But I still think it's getting overplayed: it's a good card but not one you just jam into every deck and certainly not a reason to play a 4-color abomination.

I think it will have a trajectory similar to Snapcaster Mage. Clearly a Legacy staple for the forseeable future, but no longer a card you jam into decks that happen to be on-color.

As far as banning it, no way. It's by no means degenerate or even that powerful to be even remotely considered.

If I remember correctly I was pretty much alone with the deathrite shaman being amazing, I even posted prices in the Rock thread so my boys could pick them up cheap.

[Lemnear]

If I remember correctly I was pretty much alone with the deathrite shaman being amazing, I even posted prices in the Rock thread so my boys could pick them up cheap.

not quite correct.

Deathrite Shaman:

This guy has maindeck potential profiting from all graveyards. Since I consider the days of Tarmogoyf standoffs gone I would go that far and say this guy might should replace Noble Hierarch in Mavericks and Rock-style decks (yes I know that traditional Mavericks don't ran Black for his Second ability)

He blocks unflipped delver, Mini-mongoose, goblin lackey.
He burns life away against Decks that play moat or achieve a standoff.
He is a Must-kill vs. Burn.
He creates Black and red mana unlike Hierarch in a World of fetches
He is castable off 2 different colors
He is Terror-proofed (lol)
He Naturally battles graveyard strategies.
He reduces the Need to run Ooze/ GSZ for Ooze and is cheaper to answer fast reanimation

I'm pretty sure the obligatory 2 fetches in graveyards during the First 3 turns (experience) are enough to Run Shaman as accelerator during the relevant own turns 2/3/4. After turn 4 i expect this used for it's both reach-abilities only.

Noble hierarch's only long-term use is exalted for other creatures and a horrible topdeck. I feel that here Shaman have advantages too

Deathrite Shaman is a really sweet card. They're really pushing one drops.

Despite some anti-synergy with KOTR this looks like a cool one drop for Junk/Rock decks, both mana-dork and great utility in one.

Deathrite Shaman seems fantastic. It's a mana elf for B! It's playable mana acceleration for Black! In Legacy where there are many Fetchlands and Wastelands in the graveyards the condition might not be a problem.

I think the conditions are actually really awesome. Against stuff like Mongoose in Thresh they are going to have a hard time getting to 7 cards when you can remove 1 per turn for a relevant effect. That makes a manadork a threat instead of just an accelerant. Same goes for any deck that likes having a Loam in the yard. Snapcaster? Its just a vanilla 2/1 if you remove its targets. Past in Flames? IGG? Reanimator? This guy is a powerful 1 mana weapon against quite a lot in the format. Its no solution but the fact that its a mana dork makes it maindeck material. I really think this could be the new and improved Noble Hierarch. It functions as a manadork early and if it sticks around it hits stuff in the yard or works as Lavamancer-esque reach once its outlived its usefulness as an accelerant. Not to mention it blocks Lackey quite well as a 1/2.

[dunk]

I didn't think it was good either. I was wrong: it is and will continue to be a Legacy staple. But I still think it's getting overplayed: it's a good card but not one you just jam into every deck and certainly not a reason to play a 4-color abomination.

How a Bird of Paradise that is also castable with black mana that also does a lot of splash damage while acting both as a wincon and as a defensive card can be underplayed?

Comparing this card to Snapcaster Mage is just weird. Better compare it to Brainstorm, these cards are pretty similar in powerlevel. The main difference is that Shaman dies to removal, which means more ways to "counter" it.

Obviously it's here to stay, no way that it get banned. Perfect power level for Legacy if you ask me. Modern is a different story though, wish I would have been banned last Monday already...

[lavafrogg]

not quite correct.

Pretty much.

[Amon Amarth]

How a Bird of Paradise that is also castable with black mana that also does a lot of splash damage while acting both as a wincon and as a defensive card can be underplayed?

Comparing this card to Snapcaster Mage is just weird. Better compare it to Brainstorm, these cards are pretty similar in powerlevel. The main difference is that Shaman dies to removal, which means more ways to "counter" it.

Obviously it's here to stay, no way that it get banned. Perfect power level for Legacy if you ask me. Modern is a different story though, wish I would have been banned last Monday already...

He wasn't comparing the cards stats, merely stating that the adoption of DRS into Legacy will mirror that of Snapcaster: slotted into every deck that can cast it, then eventually only being played in decks that actually want said card. There's no need for hyperbole here; we've all seen this play out before. Deathrite Shaman is merely another great card in a format full of 'em.

[FieryBalrog]

If I remember correctly I was pretty much alone with the deathrite shaman being amazing, I even posted prices in the Rock thread so my boys could pick them up cheap.

Deathrite Shaman is a really sweet card. They're really pushing one drops.

Despite some anti-synergy with KOTR this looks like a cool one drop for Junk/Rock decks, both mana-dork and great utility in one.

[Lemnear]

@FieryBalrog

I just quoted exactly this 5 posts above dood

[Mr. Safety]

In order for a card to be playable and good in legacy, it needs to be widely adopted and effective. Once it becomes widely adopted and effective, the ban trolls come out of the woodwork. Yet those same trolls seem to always be saying 'why don't they give us some more playable cards in legacy!'

Does this frustrate anyone else? I get a tick and a strong desire to poke someone's eye out whenever this situation shows up (several times a year.) Griselbrand is fine, Omniscience is fine, Show and Tell is fine, Deathrite Shaman is fine, Abrupt Decay is fine. Leave it alone for pete's sake! In fact, let me have Mind Twist so I can play Mind-Twist-Deathrite-Shaman.dec.

[DragoFireheart]

I suspect Mind Twist would be fine.

@ 3 mana, it's just a Hymn. Beyond that, you're paying mana for a spell where you could be spending that same amount on a game ending spell like Jace or some other expensive spell. Hands will not be full late game like they were early on, it's vulnerable to spells like Daze and Pierce, and you have to splash black to use it.

[Greenpoe]

Mind Twist is Entreat the Angels in black.

[Lemnear]

Mind Twist is Entreat the Angels in black.

Point me to the text passage where the target of mindtwist eats 4 damage for every discarded card. I should have missed it then

[dontbiteitholmes]

In order for a card to be playable and good in legacy, it needs to be widely adopted and effective. Once it becomes widely adopted and effective, the ban trolls come out of the woodwork. Yet those same trolls seem to always be saying 'why don't they give us some more playable cards in legacy!'

Does this frustrate anyone else? I get a tick and a strong desire to poke someone's eye out whenever this situation shows up (several times a year.) Griselbrand is fine, Omniscience is fine, Show and Tell is fine, Deathrite Shaman is fine, Abrupt Decay is fine. Leave it alone for pete's sake! In fact, let me have Mind Twist so I can play Mind-Twist-Deathrite-Shaman.dec.

The thing that kills me is that people ask for bans on the most innocuous shit. I mean I can understand people wanting Show and Tell banned, I don't agree but I understand. The people who ask for shit like GSZ, Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge to be banned though really need to get a grip.

[Lemnear]

The thing that kills me is that people ask for bans on the most innocuous shit. I mean I can understand people wanting Show and Tell banned, I don't agree but I understand. The people who ask for shit like GSZ, Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge to be banned though really need to get a grip.

You've forgot Delver, but I support your Statement. The reason seems to be the idea that a Card that pushes into Legacy and influences the Meta due to being Good or simply New (flavour of the month!) has to be damn broken considering the average powerlevel of Legacy staples like LED or Brainstorm. In addition to the idea, that the coexistance of Brainstorm and DRS in Legacy equals a similar powerlevel, I have to read every few fucking Pages stupid relations between tinker and Show&Tell or Brainstorm and Ancestral Recall.

[Wilkin]

First of, at the moment I think the format is fairly stable and healthy. I personally wouldn't ban anything.

Ok, now on to the Deathrite and Mental Misstep arguments. Sure both saw a ton of play but IMO Mental Misstep was way worse since it pushed out a ton of decks and heavily slanted decks to durdly control.

A good number of combo decks were pushed out because of Mental Misstep. Deathrite IMO, only really pushed out Reanimator. Dredge is still a good choice IMO, in fact some people who play Deathrite don't have as many slots dedicated to GY hate. Sure, Deathrite is used in a lot of decks but that alone isn't reason enough to ban it. Brainstorm sees as much play as Deathrite and I wouldn't ban that card either.

The only card at the moment that I'd consider would be Show and Tell and only because they are making more and more crazy cards like Omniscience. But right now I wouldn't ban it.

[Vacrix]

The thing that kills me is that people ask for bans on the most innocuous shit. I mean I can understand people wanting Show and Tell banned, I don't agree but I understand. The people who ask for shit like GSZ, Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge to be banned though really need to get a grip.

Oh its surely comedy. But at the same time.. people aren't even able to judge the value of cards before they even get picked up by the metagame itself so how would they be able to properly judge these cards once they are an important part of the metagame? I don't expect much anymore. Deathrite Shaman in particular was a card that quite a few people knew was good even before it saturated the metagame with BUG variants. Why? They understand how the format works.

And people who want to ban the cards you mentioned are missing the point of the cards entirely. Yeah, they are pretty good, and you COULD ban them, but if you do, the metagame falls apart because they are format staples. Wizards is doing a great job right now when it comes to balancing staples in Legacy. I mean, I like to give them shit in all the spoiler threads for just making a whole bunch of terrible filler cards when they could just make more cards... but cards like Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay pushed the format in a very good direction. Graveyard based decks are still viable, but now you have more options with DRS. Abrupt Decay fits a similar role for cards that cost 3 or less, and yet... Batterskull remains at a comfortable distance from it. Look at GSZ and how far its brought us AWAY from Goyf, making utility green creatures viable again. Look at how well Stoneforge boosted white's viability as a color in Legacy.

[dunk]

A good number of combo decks were pushed out because of Mental Misstep. Deathrite IMO, only really pushed out Reanimator.

Not even that, as it just ( = last week ) won one of the most important Legacy tournaments...