Oops, All Spells! (Formerly The Rogue Hermit)

[gkraigher]

tinder wall seems awful in this deck. its a worse rite of flame.

[alphastryk]

tinder wall seems awful in this deck. its a worse rite of flame.

Not worse, better. Easier to cast, as you have more green IMSs than red ones. Definitely not exciting though, and neither of them is very good.

Would it be possible to fit in Insist as protection from force of will?

[stygian87]

Not worse, better...

Okay so apparently I was dreaming about this last night but I woke up with a thought and this may be looking back a little bit but I feel it may be worth mentioning or possibly looking at but has anyone considered Culling the Weak along side Wild Cantor and Tinder Wall??

I had put off Culling the Weak due to the sac requirement and Wild Cantor for the 1 for 1 but with Tinder Wall and Wild Cantor I think it could be better and more reliable possibly even more then Cabal Ritual. neither Tinder Wall of Wild Cantor are difficult to cast either... other synergies(maybe too janky):

Wild Cantor: Converts mana to black, tutorable with Summoner's Pact, Imprintable on Chrome Mox (Con is 1 for 1)
Tinder Wall: Tutorable with Summoner's Pact, Imprintable on Chrome Mox, 1 for 2
Culling the Weak:1 for 3! Imprintable on Chrome Mox!

[The Informer]

Both those points make sense. It was worth a shot, but I doubt it's actually better than other builds. Thanks for doing the number crunching!

I do like the idea transforming into a man-plan. I don't think Obliterator is the card, though. We have relatively few ways to make lots of B mana - the builds right now are tuned to make 1 B and lots of random colors.
One card that I've had my eye on is Tomb of Urami. SI likes it because people generally won't counter your rituals, and then they can't counter Tomb. It does have the problem of needing to get up to 5 mana and because our kill involves creatures, I'm not sure people will actually take out all their removal.

From the SI thread, potentials they've looked at:
- Tomb of Urami
- Tombstalker
- Avatar of Discord
- Phyrexian Negator
- Phylactery Lich
- Death’s Shadow
- Dark Confidant

Of these options, I like Tomb and Bob the most. They even work fairly well together.

--
Re: Gutteral Response and Autumn's Veil - I'm just not excited by those cards because you probably don't have room for them maindeck (and if you do, Pact of Negation would be better), and they also don't stop any graveyard hate postboard.

Glad people like the beatdown plan, and those are good beatdown options.

The one I originally had in mind is Myr Superion (2 mana for a 5/6)! I side in Superion and 2-3 Burning-Tree Shaman. Just drop 5-7 power on the board on turn 1 and hope it gets there. It's been surprisingly okay and is way bigger than a Goyf on turn 1. Nice thing about this plan is that you can keep in the combo in the deck and have both threats be viable.

I like Phylactery Lich though, sounds promising :).

[Ziveeman]

Glad people like the beatdown plan, and those are good beatdown options.

The one I originally had in mind is Myr Superion (2 mana for a 5/6)! I side in Superion and 2-3 Burning-Tree Shaman. Just drop 5-7 power on the board on turn 1 and hope it gets there. It's been surprisingly okay and is way bigger than a Goyf on turn 1. Nice thing about this plan is that you can keep in the combo in the deck and have both threats be viable.

I like Phylactery Lich though, sounds promising :).

Another option for the beatdown plan is Treacherous Pit-Dweller.

[stygian87]

this may be looking back a little bit but I feel it may be worth mentioning or possibly looking at but has anyone considered Culling the Weak along side Wild Cantor and Tinder Wall??

I tested this by taking out Cabal Ritual for Culling the Weak (just to see how it ran) and ran Tinder Wall I was not completely happy.. either I didn't have a black source or I didn't have a creature to sac.. (I'm sure this has already been realized) Cabal Ritual is better but Culling the Weak can just end games and being able to run both effectively would be great I just feel you'd need to cut too much because you would want to run 4 Wild Cantors, 4 Tinder Walls, and you may even want to run 4 Burning-Tree Emissary over Manamorphoses for more creatures?

Thoughts:
1x Angel of Glory's Rise
1x Azami, Lady of Scrolls
4x Balustrade Spy
4x Cabal Ritual
1x Cabal Therapy
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
1x Dread Return
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Laboratory Maniac
4x Lotus Petal
4x Narcomoeba
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Culling the Weak
4x Summoner's Pact
4x Tinder Wall
4x Undercity Informer
3x Wild Cantor

Took out Manamorphose and Street Wraith.. think it's too Cycle light, comments?

[TheSobe33]

Hi guys,

I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I've been looking for a 'budget' legacy combo deck for awhile and this seemed perfect. One thing I am confused about is the use of Lion's Eye Diamond and Infernal Tutor. It seems to be the general consensus that LED and IT must be used in this deck, while I don't see how they benefit. Attempting to get hellbent seems like a lot of work to me, where aggressive mulliganing and knowing the in and outs of what is needed to go off would just work better.
To be honest, I have been testing the list that Prosak had up on starcity, with pretty good results (~45% T1 kills, ~58% T2 out of 300 hands tested). I understand the concerns many have about running cyclers (probe and wraith), but I would only keep a hand if I had most of what I needed to go off: 3 mana(at least one of which was B or the ability to get B). The cyclers enable us to dig deeper into the deck without potentially throwing away a really good hand that is only one card away from a kill.
Well, I'm just curious, if anyone could fill me in. I admit that I could be totally off base, as I'm sorta new to these type of decks, having played control for quite awhile. Thanks for the feedback

[Begle1]

Lion's Eye Diamond combos very nicely with Infernal Tutor... You cast Infernal Tutor, and in response you sacrifice the Lion's Eye Diamond and are forced to discard your hand. Now Infernal Tutor resolves, sees that you have no cards in your hand, and you get to look for any card in your library. And you have three mana floating from the Lion's Eye Diamond, so you can also cast the card you're getting with the Tutor.

There are several decks using the synergy between the two cards in Legacy.



This deck is legitimate. Better than Belcher or Storm. I see the banhammer coming fast and hard. And so needless, too. It was obvious as soon as the new cards were spoiled that this would be a thing.

[nudon]

Hi guys,

I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I've been looking for a 'budget' legacy combo deck for awhile and this seemed perfect. One thing I am confused about is the use of Lion's Eye Diamond and Infernal Tutor. It seems to be the general consensus that LED and IT must be used in this deck, while I don't see how they benefit. Attempting to get hellbent seems like a lot of work to me, where aggressive mulliganing and knowing the in and outs of what is needed to go off would just work better.
To be honest, I have been testing the list that Prosak had up on starcity, with pretty good results (~45% T1 kills, ~58% T2 out of 300 hands tested). I understand the concerns many have about running cyclers (probe and wraith), but I would only keep a hand if I had most of what I needed to go off: 3 mana(at least one of which was B or the ability to get B). The cyclers enable us to dig deeper into the deck without potentially throwing away a really good hand that is only one card away from a kill.
Well, I'm just curious, if anyone could fill me in. I admit that I could be totally off base, as I'm sorta new to these type of decks, having played control for quite awhile. Thanks for the feedback

As stated, LED allows infernal tutor to go hellbent and find informer/spy in your deck. However, infernal tutor is not as good in this deck compared to others in my opinion because it is very difficult to go hellbent without LED due to all the combo pieces. Instead, I run living wishes in my current build to go with LED:

http://deckstats.net/deck-1886312-35...03aa3ce25.html

They are really good for providing extra win conditions and can search up a cavern of souls/swamp/etc for utility as well. Also, living wish does not have the restriction of needing to go hellbent. There are many times I can combo off without LED. My t1 kills (as well as many other lists posted here) are pretty good (~50-60%). T2 kills on average are over 70% for reference. I don't like Prosak's list because I think 8 win-cons isn't enough to consistently go off. Some lists I've seen run both infernal tutor and living wish but I'm satisfied with my list for now.

[Philipp2293]

What's your main boarding plan if you board into the Belcher plan?

[Upstate Jimmy]

This is my current board, which combines both a reactive and a transformtaional board.

3x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Spoils of the Vault
4x Pact of Negation
1x Swamp
1x Cavern
1x Ingot Chewer
1x Undercity Informer

Swamp, Cavern, Chewer and Informer are all wishboard. For the transformation, the combo comes out and is replaced by Belchers and spoils (I also run a Charbelcher Main).

If I suspect I can race a deck, but they have force, the current plan is to take out some numbers of tutors and manamorphose for pact, as well as maybe sub in a Balustrade spy for another Charbelcher.

[John Cox]

Hey just came to a eureka moment. You can use entomb + unearth to put an undercity informer out. This opens up a whole new angle, and solidifies the current one.

[catmint]

This deck is legitimate. Better than Belcher or Storm. I see the banhammer coming fast and hard. And so needless, too. It was obvious as soon as the new cards were spoiled that this would be a thing.

trolling?
Deck will be a "for fun" deck and might even go 3-1 at your locals with a lot of luck. Won't be a viable deck unless we have been missing something.

A cheap 2 card como (Entomb-Unearth) won't solve the consistency issues - might even make it more inconsistend altough you could use unearth as a ritual if you have a tinder wall.

[stygian87]

Hey just came to a eureka moment. You can use entomb + unearth to put an undercity informer out. This opens up a whole new angle, and solidifies the current one.

The problem is getting B mana.. If you want to run reanimator run something like this:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...tendrils_.html

[The Informer]

trolling?
Deck will be a "for fun" deck and might even go 3-1 at your locals with a lot of luck. Won't be a viable deck unless we have been missing something.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. This deck could be good; it has existed for 1-2 weeks maximum, and still needs tooling, time, and good pilots. At this point it is clearly not dominating everything, and I think it will be a long time, if ever, before a key piece of this deck gets banned in Legacy. Think about how powerful Show and Tell was, putting up results, and Show and Tell is still in the format. So, I don't see any bans coming here, at least nothing foreseeable in the short term. That is not to say this deck can't become quite good with the right build and the right pilots. I don't think we are there yet.

[StoneColdEffy]

What about a SB like:
4 Pact of Negation
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Leyline of Sanctity

Empty the Warrens seems like the best SB transformation since it takes up the least number of space (even storm for like 4 or 5 is good enough). People will most likely not counter your rituals since they will want to hold counters for your Spy/Informer then you can blowout with Leyline. The small space that EtW takes up allows you to play Leylines and Pacts, Leylines for MUs with lots of discard and Pact for MUs with light counter

[leegoo]

Hey just came to a eureka moment. You can use entomb + unearth to put an undercity informer out. This opens up a whole new angle, and solidifies the current one.

This was the list I posted on the Storm Boards. Certainly not tuned, but Entomb being able to grab Bayou out of your library is useful. Flashing back Unburial Rites also gives you a use for LED. You could probably find room for a random fatty main or sb to have a "plan b" as well.

1x Angel of Glory's Rise
1x Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1x Bayou
1x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
1x Dread Return
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Entomb
1x Laboratory Maniac
4x Land Grant
3x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
3x Manamorphose
4x Narcomoeba
4x Reanimate
4x Summoner's Pact
1x Unburial Rites
4x Undercity Informer
2x Unearth
1x Wild Cantor

You probably want to find room for Spy in some number as well... and likely the 4th manamorphose (maybe even LED#4)

[Bahamuth]

Why is no one running Belchers mainboard? If you run anything more than 8 Informers and the required dead cards, you cannot even board out of the strategy.

[MatsT]

@leegoo: Running Bayou ruins the entire combo. Unless you get a land grant you can't even win. Entomb plus Unearth is a two-card combo so it's mostly useless anyway compared to the normal ways to win. If you think 7 creatures plus 4 Living Wish is too little you can run Infernal Tutor.

@Bahamuth: Belcher requires 7 mana which is more than the 11 existing ways we have to win (seven of them cost 4 and four of them cost 6). Replacing Living Wish with Charbelcher is not out of the question, but it also prevents us from playing utility cards like Cavern of Souls. The plan isn't really to ever board completely out of the strategy.

[Bahamuth]

@Bahamuth: Belcher requires 7 mana which is more than the 11 existing ways we have to win (seven of them cost 4 and four of them cost 6). Replacing Living Wish with Charbelcher is not out of the question, but it also prevents us from playing utility cards like Cavern of Souls. The plan isn't really to ever board completely out of the strategy.

If you don't board out of the strategy, then there's no way the deck will ever be better than R/G Belcher, as you fold to way too many cards.