Missed this.Originally Posted by Megadeus
The problem here is that PFire is an instant, so you can't Wish for it -- as is Crop Rot. The best you could do would be to put in like a Grim Tutor, and even then that's 2RBB and 3 life to get the half of the combo that you're missing.
I mean, you could run Wish just for value, which is probably fine, but at that point you might be better served with a real sideboard. I'm not sure. By all means proxy it up and test it out, though. It's certainly far less heinous than trying to run Scapeshift AND PFire. Burning Wish is compact enough that it can go in either just fine IMO. The real question is whether or not PFire can be without its sideboard, and I'm not sure that the answer is yes IF it cares about combo. If it makes the "fuck combo," decision, then you should be golden.
I walked over yesterday and saw him playing that deck. I was was like there is no way that can work...
Also mt plan was to just have wish as a good value card.
A few thoughts:
First off congrats to Arianrhod and Siiig for reasonable showings at the NELC!
Second, I agree that Punishing Scapewish can't work.
Third, I'm actually already on the Mindbreak Trap plan myself with the rise in popularity of Leyline of Sanctity. It's working well as a supplement to discard and interacting with the combo decks on a different axis.
Fourth, don't actually worry about trying to make the Turbo Eldrazi matchup winnable. It's just not. And certainly not worth dedicating slots too. As far as the Angel of Despair thing, if Primeval Titan hits the battlefield, the game actually ends on the spot. Scapewish is the only version that has a reasonable shot by just racing them, the other versions, don't bother. They have to get really poor draws and you need to get really lucky.
Yeah... We are built to go bigger than other midrange decks. They go Biggest. Damn Eldrazis.
Despite what everyone is saying I've tested the punishing fire/ scapewish list a little bit on the previous page and it has been working fairly well. I think it needs some tuning but it could definitely be good I think. Punishing fire is soooo good right now and I think that it may be worth it.
I find burn decks a little hard to beat if they get the better draws. Are they worth the sideboard slots? Burn is a big part of our meta, its highly unlikely you don't face at least 1 in a 6-7 round tourney
Thragtusk beats burn. He basically takes 4 of their cards to "undo", and if they dont deal with him he wins in 3-4 turns. I wouldnt dedicate SB slots to them. It should be a positive matchup already. Just be ready to deal with sulfuric vortex, and avoid nonbasics. Do anything you can use to stall till you land a tusk. If your play red, huntmaster is also a beast. In white, leyline of sancity is already a good card in the meta, but great against burn too. Blue, bring in whatever countermagic you have, just to slow them down. If your on GB, or all you have access to is non-thoughtsieze discard thats fine too.I find burn decks a little hard to beat if they get the better draws. Are they worth the sideboard slots? Burn is a big part of our meta, its highly unlikely you don't face at least 1 in a 6-7 round tourney
If you are seriously concerned, add more thragtusks in the SB. Also Zuran Orb is probably the best general card against them besides what I mentioned above. Note, this is not as good against sligh, or UR delver burn since they have a bit more long term gas and you will need to deal with creatures not just spells.
You definitely want leyline. It's great against them and has other applications.I find burn decks a little hard to beat if they get the better draws. Are they worth the sideboard slots? Burn is a big part of our meta, its highly unlikely you don't face at least 1 in a 6-7 round tourney
The punishing fire list is good and congrats to the homie who went 20th, especially at scg.
It actually does work and to have a recurring answer is very powerful, it'll basically get rid of any small annoying things. In a sense its powerful in the meta right now bc it'll get rid of most of jund, bug, etc dudes so you dont get over run by them. And in a sense makes the elves match up winnable because you can keep shooting their dudes. So i'm not going to say its bad because technically it is actually not bad.
The only problem is it can slow you down because your letting them gain life. Scapeshift can technically be a turn 3 win... well in most of my case.
I'm not going change the list for it though because in my opinion, abrupt decay is just too good to not play, blows shit up, can't be countered.
Siig, man you just had bad draws but after watching it makes me worried that discard is going to hurt scapeshift.
I still think scapeshift is da beast and i've played all of them. oh and yes arianhood is correct, big red is not fun lol
One more question: if I'm in blue, is Flusterstorm an acceptable substitute to Mind Break Trap?
Thanks y'all.
I think that punishing fire scapeshift deck could be good. You have to look at it this way though. Look at that list again. It is not Scapeshift deck with punishing fire thrown in. It is a punishing fire deck with burning wishes so it might as well have scapeshift for those "oops i win" games.
Its far better since you can it can have more uses like against S&T for example. While I dont play BUG nic fit, if I did I would want 3-4 FoW and 2-3 other counterspells (probably negate) in my SB. With access to discard, countermagic and green hatebears/clock, I feel like no BUG deck should be losing to combo.
So here's my short tournament report last February 3, 2013. 45 Players played on this event and luckily i got top 8.
Thanks for HoneyT for the Kessig Wolf Run Tech it's absolutely good. I just tweak the list of HoneyT. I just put in 2 Deathrite Shaman to replace Primeval Titan and Recurring Nightmare that i forgot to borrow from unemployer.
Here's the list that i played.
6th place Louie Funelas with Punishing Nicfit
main deck:
4 Veteran explorer
2 Deathrite shaman
1 Eternal witness
2 Huntmaster of the fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Broodmate dragon
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Kitchen finks
1 Thrun the last troll
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green sun's zenith
3 Punishing fire
3 Abrupt decay
3 Sensei's divining top
2 Maelstrom pulse
3 Pernicious deed
1 Garruk relentless
4 Grove of the burnwillows
4 Verdant catacombs
3 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Wooded foothills
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Phyrexian tower
1 Volrath's stronghold
1 Kessig wolf-run
Sideboard:
3 Carpet of flowers
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical extraction
2 Slaughter games
1 Dismember
1 Go for the throat
2 Pyroblast
1 Red elemental blast
======================
R1 vs UW Miracle - 2-0
Game 1 - A second turn Thrun seals up the game.
Game 2 - A second turn Broodmate Dragon wins the game. <-- how lucky i am cast this on second turn. =P
R2 vs Esper Stoneblade 1-1-1
Game 1 - Second turn Thrun wins the game.
Game 2 - Stalled by Batterskull and Academy Ruins loop.
Game 3 - same as game 2.
R3 vs RUG - 2-0
Game 1 - A win come from behind top deck Maelstrom Pulse, my opponents creature was 2 Tarmogoyf and don't own any creatures in play. After i topdeck Pulse got a topdeck GSZ to Thragtusk which seals the game.
Game 2 - 2nd turn Thrun + Kitchen finks wins the game.
R4 vs Manaless Dredge - 2-1 Sherko was the one who's playing dredge.
Game 1 - A win from Scavenging Ooze seals the game.
Game 2 - My Scavenging Ooze died to Sickening Shoal, and loss via Flayer of the Hatebound.
Game 3 - win via top deck Green Sun's Zenith to Scavenging Ooze and i already had plenty of Green Mana to pump up Scavenging Ooze.
R5 vs Punishing Maverick - 2-1
Game 1 - The game takes 43 mins and 7mins left to play game 2.
Game 2 - Win 2nd turn Huntmaster and 3rd Turn wins the game easily. Both huntmaster flips.
Game 3 - Win via Thrun and Kessig Wolf Run control the board by sweeping up using Pernicious Deed.
R6 vs Jund - Intentional Draw - (ID)
Top8 Playoffs.
R1 vs Sneak Show - 0-2
Game 1 - I know this player and he always play Enchantress deck. So i ramp up to Veteran Explorer + Phyrexian Tower until he fetch up island and mountain, what the fuck this guy was not playing enchantress and i think he plays Sneak and Show deck. I loss via Hardcast Sneak Attack with Emrakul + Griselbrand attacking.
Game 2 - And early disruption hits his hand, he earns a few mana to hard cast Sneak Attack and just waiting for a top deck Emrakul. 1st attack wiped out my board including Thrugtusk, so i got a 3/3 beast token left until it my opponent came to 1 life and i was down to 6 that time. If he got a top deck creature that's the end of the game. But then he got a top deck brainstorm, the turn one he drew from brainstorm was Emrakul oh! my dreams had fallen down to push to game 3. haha.
Blame it on me dude, forgot about the Titan. Congrats on the finish. Let's keep on Nic Fitting in the next months.
How'd the 3 P.Fire worked for you? Do you think its time to play 4 Decays and 4 P.Fires and remove Pulses?
I played a very small tournament (16 people) went 2-2 with scapeshift. Won against TES and Belcher to my surprise but lost to Jund and BUG Still (boring match and if you do not win game one its over because there will be no game 2) So not much to report.
@Arianrhod: maybe a stupid question but why is Meltdown so artrocious. For 3 mana you cast a wish and meltdown for zero to get rid of all those 0 mana costing artifacts. Pulverize is very good but will cost us 2 mana which is bad for scapewish and valakut plan.
I am sure I am missing something so please let me know?
I also wondered if we could play a one of wasteland (as a 61 card)to possibly find an answer to manlands and a card like academy ruins. It is probably not doing enough to warrant a spot in the deck.
Last edited by Cire_dk; 02-05-2013 at 06:44 AM.
Currently Playing: Scapefit , Shardless BUG, Team America,
Abrupt Decay can't remove other permanent with 4cc up
This is the list I've been piloting for a while now with a very recent change. With the rise in popularity of the Jund decks in Legacy I think that the meta game is very ripe for Nic Fit to do well. As some of you may know when fair decks are good Nic Fit is at it's best because it can prey on the fair decks.
Here is the list:
Junk Nic Fit (GWB Explorer)
Creatures:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Wall of Blossoms
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witeness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Fierce Empath
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Deranged Hermit
1x Grave Titan
1x Sun Titan
Spells:
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Skeletal Scrying
4x Swordd to Plowshares
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Vindicate
Lands:
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Phyrexian Tower
I am trying to work Deathrite Shaman in in some way. but the list is pretty tight as it is. The addition of Fierce Empath sets up some nice tutor chains with GSZ.
Also is Thragtusk a better 5 drop than Hermit Druid?
What about Spirit Monger against the black decks running Perish in the board?
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
Tusk is awesome. Id definitely be playing him. I found hermit to be underwhleming personally
The only time I'm scared of burn is when they keep 1-landers. If they flood even slightly, we're usually fine. What version are you looking at building? For any white version, you definitely want Leylines. Scapewish has a few more issues, but Hunts + Thrags are usually sufficient. If burn has that large of a presence, there are a few wish targets you can employ as well.I find burn decks a little hard to beat if they get the better draws. Are they worth the sideboard slots? Burn is a big part of our meta, its highly unlikely you don't face at least 1 in a 6-7 round tourney
Agree@Punishing Scapewish. It's a Punishing deck that happens to have Scapeshift thrown in. I think that Scapeshifting for value (Taigas into Groves, for example) would be perfectly legit. But IMO stretching the manabase to try to include the Valakut kill too seems way too greedy to me. I dunno. Maybe it works better than it looks.
Disagree@Fluster vs MBT. Flusterstorm requires you to have a turn to play a land vs Belcher/Hermit, which there is absolutely no guarantee of. I wouldn't run Flusterstorm in Nic Fit. MBT is fine as a "speed counter" ala FoW, Negate is probably the go-to past that as a more "general purpose" counterspell.
For Meltdown, consider the following scenario:I played a very small tournament (16 people) went 2-2 with scapeshift. Won against TES and Belcher to my surprise but lost to Jund and BUG Still (boring match and if you do not win game one its over because there will be no game 2
@Arianrhod: maybe a stupid question but why is Meltdown so artrocious. For 3 mana you cast a wish and meltdown for zero to get rid of all those 0 mana costing artifacts. Pulverize is very good but will cost us 2 mana which is bad for scapewish and valakut plan.
I am sure I am missing something so please let me know?
I also wondered if we could play a one of wasteland (as a 61 card)to possibly find an answer to manlands and a card like academy ruins. It is probably not doing enough to warrant a spot in the deck.
Your MUD opponent goes something like this: Ancient Tomb, Mox Diamond pitching whatever, Metalworker. You have a fine hand -- you Therapy him, name Wurmcoil, let's say, and you hit one. He uses Metalworker to poop out a Lodestone and a Steel Hellkite.
You spend two mana on an Explorer and have to pass it back. He doesn't want to set you off, so he swings with Hellkite. Let's assume that he doesn't do anything else of relevance -- his board is already good. You pay 1 to flashback Therapy, giving you 4 mana available.
He has Diamond, Metalworker, Hellkite, Lodestone in play, and probably a few lands...maybe like a Grim Monolith or something derpy too.
You have 5 lands, one of which is tapped.
Which is the best outcome:
Burning Wish + Pulverize (3 for Wish, 1 to "cast" Pulverize). You drop to 3 lands, he loses everything.
Burning Wish + Shattering Spree ( 3 for Wish, he gets a free turn to bash you). You keep your lands, but drop to 4. You don't have the red mana to kill everything, so he recovers.
Burning Wish + Meltdown (3 for Wish, he gets a free turn to bash you). You keep your lands, but drop to 4. You don't have the mana to cast Meltdown with X=6, so you die.
Even vs something like Affinity, Meltdown is garbage. You just need too much mana to pump into it to make it worthwhile. Frogmite/Myr Enforcer will do a fine job of beating you down. The 2-land cost of Pulverize is harsh, I'll grant you. But vs the decks where it matters, we can afford it. Keep in mind that Scapewish runs twenty-four to twenty-six mana-producing lands, because of no fetches. You'll draw more lands.
Damn people posting while I am :P
Deathrite would occupy one of the Scavenging Ooze slots if you really want him. He's been kind of underwhelming to everyone in here who's tried him, though.
2 Thruns o_O That's two too many!
Wickerbough is completely unnecessary. You have Qasali Pridemage, which is vastly superior. Wickerbough just clogs your 4-drop slot.
Thragtusk is better than Deranged Hermit, and Sigarda, Host of Herons is vastly better than either. Not running Sigarda in a white list is treason.
Grave Titan's pretty lame. He's decent, but there's better options.
Skeletal Scrying is a weird card. I want to say that it's bad, but the time might be coming around where it's good again. I definitely wouldn't run it over the 3rd Top, though, if that's the decision you came to.
*Thumbs up* @ Swords. You're sporting a Rock-based approach, and Swords is definitely the way to go now. You need the additional speed, and too many decks are running things with CMC > 3 because of Decay.
Liliana of the Veil is still trash in this deck. We're about resource acquisition, not resource deprivation.
2 Deeds is at least 1 too few. Deed is way too good in general, and especially right now.
Mana base seems fine.
Here are my suggested changes:
-1 Ooze
-1 Wickerbough
-2 Thrun
-1 Hermit
-1 Grave Titan
-2 Liliana of the Veil
+1 Deed
+1 Top
+1 Armada Wurm
+1 Sigarda
+1 Thragtusk
+1 Trostani
+1 Master of the Wild Hunt
+1 Eternal Witness
Now that I've needlessly added my own annotations to Kevin's response to someone other than me (because I'm nosy like that), I have to ask what is so good about Master of the Wild Hunt? I mean yeah, it's a great bomb that must be answered, but it does nothing immediately, which means it can be answered immediately with no lingering effects. Even if it lives long enough to pop out a wolf and either spot-remove a DRS, SFM, Bob, etc., it lacks the same impact that Huntmaster of the Fells flipped once or Squallmonger/Ifh-Biff Efreet with so much open mana has, and certainly lacks the staying power that Thrun has.
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