[Deck] Jund

[Barbed Blightning]

Why the SB BBE?

[Amazingxkcd]

I think it is just a concession to what all the earlier lists were running, as all of them had the 3/1 split for the boards.

[Darkness]

Why the SB BBE?

The Bloodbraid Elf is for the grindy match ups that you encounter. Mirror, Maverick, Death and Taxes, Esper Stoneblade, Nic Fit, Eva Green, Junk, Dead Guy Ale, Goblins, Merfolk, Delver variants or anything where attrition wars are going to decide the match. The card advantage generated by Bloodbraid Elf is so powerful, not to mention that she shines here due to the the fact that there are almost always enemy permanents for your removal to hit via the cascade. Try it and see!

[zulander]

The Bloodbraid Elf is for the grindy match ups that you encounter. Mirror, Maverick, Death and Taxes, Esper Stoneblade, Nic Fit, Eva Green, Junk, Dead Guy Ale, Goblins, Merfolk, Delver variants or anything where attrition wars are going to decide the match.

Essentially everything other than combo.. which is why it should be in the main.

[Darkness]

Essentially everything other than combo.. which is why it should be in the main.

True that it does come in for most of the decks, but it is not the most powerful spell in the deck. You don't want to dilute your deck for combo pre board just for the extra cascade effect. An opening hand with two Bloodbraid Elf against combo pre board is miserable. You have a good match up against most of the non combo decks already, especially if you're on the punishing fire plan. I do believe it is a personal, meta call for the 4th in the main or in the board.

[Kuma]

The reason I heard for Bloodbraid Elf in the board is because it gets better postboard after you've boarded out the cards that aren't relevant in the matchup for ones that are.

[Barbed Blightning]

Still DTB!

[Arsenal]

but it is not the most powerful spell in the deck.

As a blue player (both blue control and blue tempo), BBE is literally the only card that gives me nightmares. An argument can be made the DRS is the most powerful spell in Jund, and while DRS is certainly bad, at least my removal and countermagic matter versus it whereas I get 2-for-1ed whenever BBE is cast, and then it just gets worse from there depending on what you flip into off the Cascade trigger. Make no mistake, BBE is to Jund what Jace is to Stoneblade; a 4cc bomb that is an absolute nightmare to be sitting across from.

Note, I'm not commenting on the correct number of BBE (as Jace often is a 3-of in the decks that can properly support him), but just the power level of the card. BBE is by far the most powerful card in Jund, even if the "correct" number to run maindeck is 3.

[Barbed Blightning]

As a blue player (both blue control and blue tempo), BBE is literally the only card that gives me nightmares. An argument can be made the DRS is the most powerful spell in Jund, and while DRS is certainly bad, at least my removal and countermagic matter versus it whereas I get 2-for-1ed whenever BBE is cast, and then it just gets worse from there depending on what you flip into off the Cascade trigger. Make no mistake, BBE is to Jund what Jace is to Stoneblade; a 4cc bomb that is an absolute nightmare to be sitting across from.

Note, I'm not commenting on the correct number of BBE (as Jace often is a 3-of in the decks that can properly support him), but just the power level of the card. BBE is by far the most powerful card in Jund, even if the "correct" number to run maindeck is 3.

I'm of the persuasion that 4 is correct, since it can absolutely bury your opponent. Sure, two in hand are awful vs combo, but they're godly against aggro and control

[razvan]

I think that saying that they are bad against combo is because of an imperfect understanding of the match-up.

You need a certain degree of luck to beat combo match-ups. A lot of legacy combo decks can win out of nowhere, including off top-decks, and they have many ways to ensure such a think will happen with frightening frequency. People often say that Liliana of the Veil is one of the best ways to beat combo, but I often question that.

Say you cast her on turn 2, and your opponent discards from 7 cards down to 6. What have you achieved? Not much (nothing if against High Tide). Combo decks need less cards to win against us because we run no counterspells. If they have Top, or Brainstorm, that number is probably a lot lower than it is. Casting a Tarmogoyf in that scenario is probably better because your only chance to win is to get them to zero life.

Now, I am not saying that the discard suite, including Liliana, is something to scoff at, but one very real way to win is to simply aggro them down, and one very real way to lose is to try to play a control deck.

BBE is very good at aggro-ing them down fast. Sometimes, they will just win in response, but that's the way the game goes sometimes. Sometimes you need to just hope they cannot go off and play to that particular out. Not only that sometimes you both are in a top-decking war (your discard, and them dealing with your threats), and BBE is a very nasty thing to be dropping when you both have nothing (2 threats for the price of one?).

I think the deck can only handle 3 4-drops and still be an effective wasteland deck, but I don't think it's because it's not great against combo.

[lordofthepit]

As a blue player (both blue control and blue tempo), BBE is literally the only card that gives me nightmares. An argument can be made the DRS is the most powerful spell in Jund, and while DRS is certainly bad, at least my removal and countermagic matter versus it whereas I get 2-for-1ed whenever BBE is cast, and then it just gets worse from there depending on what you flip into off the Cascade trigger. Make no mistake, BBE is to Jund what Jace is to Stoneblade; a 4cc bomb that is an absolute nightmare to be sitting across from.

Note, I'm not commenting on the correct number of BBE (as Jace often is a 3-of in the decks that can properly support him), but just the power level of the card. BBE is by far the most powerful card in Jund, even if the "correct" number to run maindeck is 3.

When I play a blue deck against Jund, I ask myself "can this hand beat Punishing Fire inevitability?" by either outracing it or answering it somehow. I'm worried about that more than Bloodbraid Elf. If I'm playing a control deck, this means either sticking a quick Batterskull or an Entreat the Angels, since nothing else will survive. If I'm playing a tempo deck, I'm looking for a Goyf, Goose, or Tombstalker, with a lot of disruption. If I'm playing a combo deck, I just laugh at my hilarious joke and kill them on turn two.

When I play Jund against a blue deck with a bad clock, I will snap-keep if (1) the hand is sick (i.e. perfect curve into Liliana and BBE, backed with discard), (2) the hand has both pieces in it, or (3) the hand has enough removal and disruption for me to eventually draw into both pieces.

[alphastryk]

Hey guys, some thinking here. I haven't played the deck a ton, but when I have it seems like the only losses I'm having against fair decks are whebn we both end up in topddeck mode. Coming from playing various blue decks with much more card selection in the form of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Sensei's Divining Top, I wonder if there isn't a way to improve the card selection in this kind of deck.

Sylvan Library is obviously great but a bit clunky and you never want to draw a second before you cast the first, so I wouldn't want more than maybe two in my list, but would it be completely unreasonable to run Tops or maybe even Mirri's Guile? I've seen lots of Junk builds run Tops for years to great effect, and Jund has enough fetches to see a lot of cards with Top, so it might be worth trying. It could just be awful, but I figured I'd share my thoughts.

[Barbed Blightning]

Hey guys, some thinking here. I haven't played the deck a ton, but when I have it seems like the only losses I'm having against fair decks are whebn we both end up in topddeck mode. Coming from playing various blue decks with much more card selection in the form of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Sensei's Divining Top, I wonder if there isn't a way to improve the card selection in this kind of deck.

Sylvan Library is obviously great but a bit clunky and you never want to draw a second before you cast the first, so I wouldn't want more than maybe two in my list, but would it be completely unreasonable to run Tops or maybe even Mirri's Guile? I've seen lots of Junk builds run Tops for years to great effect, and Jund has enough fetches to see a lot of cards with Top, so it might be worth trying. It could just be awful, but I figured I'd share my thoughts.

As a Junk play, I can tell you that Top is actually horrible for both decks. It's a mana sink in the early turns and nowhere near enough card advantage for the late game. Library is the shit.

[alphastryk]

As a Junk play, I can tell you that Top is actually horrible for both decks. It's a mana sink in the early turns and nowhere near enough card advantage for the late game. Library is the shit.

Fair enough. I've ususally been on the other side of the table with a blue control deck of some kind and its been good because I have actual zero pressure.

[jin]

Fair enough. I've ususally been on the other side of the table with a blue control deck of some kind and its been good because I have actual zero pressure.

It's a matter of playing style. I know this because my friends and I have experimented with a variety of archetypes and have noticed our decision making skills are fairly different. I'm a control-type player (like you). My friend A is a combo type player. My friend B is a aggro type player.

I tend to cast spells, wait until I have board control and then swing. This sometimes involves plowing first. Friend A tends to play more similarly to me. Friend A tends to be more trigger happy with his cantrips. Friend B tends to swing first, burn annoying stuff afterwards.

Do you see what I mean? Also, the difference between a control player and an aggro player is, that control players tend to think they have to remove everything. Aggro players are just satisfied with burning the most annoying things and just beating down with their creatures. The pressure on the board adds a whole new depth of control.

After thinking about things that way, it might help you answer why you are always falling into 'top-deck-mode'. When I play Jund, I tend to not find myself in 'top-deck-mode' unless I have Liliana on the board, which likely mean I'm winning, or if they have Liliana on the board, which likely means I'm losing. You may consider your strategy again, and then report back with your thoughts on Sylvan Library. With the likes of Dark Confidant, Bloodbraid Elf, Hymn to Tourach, and Punishing Fires, your hand should not be empty often.

[DLifshitz]

As a Junk play, I can tell you that Top is actually horrible for both decks. It's a mana sink in the early turns and nowhere near enough card advantage for the late game. Library is the shit.

Just today I tested a Jund build with 3 maindeck tops, and I have to disagree. I feel that it has better synergy with Bob because it can be used during one's upkeep, and if necessary, you can put it on top of your library to prevent yourself from losing more than 1 life. I also liked being able to use it repeatedly, e.g. after fetching. Library, or a split of Top and Library, may or may not be somewhat better, but Top certainly is a good card.

@alphastryk
I've never used Mirri's Guile, but simply because it doesn't replace itself, I don't expect it to be very good.

On an unrelated note, I dropped the basic mountain, and I've yet to miss it. It also felt like 3 copies of BBE is the right number.

[Barbed Blightning]

Just today I tested a Jund build with 3 maindeck tops, and I have to disagree. I feel that it has better synergy with Bob because it can be used during one's upkeep, and if necessary, you can put it on top of your library to prevent yourself from losing more than 1 life. I also liked being able to use it repeatedly, e.g. after fetching. Library, or a split of Top and Library, may or may not be somewhat better, but Top certainly is a good card.

@alphastryk
I've never used Mirri's Guile, but simply because it doesn't replace itself, I don't expect it to be very good.

On an unrelated note, I dropped the basic mountain, and I've yet to miss it. It also felt like 3 copies of BBE is the right number.

Top draws you no cards. That's where it becomes useless. And if you're using it repeatedly, you're just spinning your wheels.

Against control, library is the best card you could ask for. Selection, draw and requires no consumption of resources. And hard to remove.

Three of any draw manipulator in this deck is bad. You want threats and removal--be it discard or destruction.

[DLifshitz]

And if you're using it repeatedly, you're just spinning your wheels.

Not true. If you spin the top, fetch, and spin the top again, you're seeing new cards, which you can draw into by using the 2nd ability. Library being able to draw extra cards is great of course, but also very costly in terms of life.

And hard to remove.

All too often, control runs Abrupt Decays of their own, or they can Spell Pierce or Spell Snare. Top, on the other hand, is actually harder to deal with, especially if you're on the play. If Library cost 1 to play and 1 to use every time, I would totally prefer Library, but alas.

You want threats and removal--be it discard or destruction.

I don't see why this makes playing 3 copies of a filter bad. In fact, I would say that the ability to filter out discard and removal, especially Bolts and Punishing Fires, when you don't need it is very useful. Top is a good card on its own and we run 7 cards that care about the top card(s) of your library, making it even better. Of course, I wouldn't run more than 2 copies of Library, because it can't be shuffled back.

[Barbed Blightning]

Not true. If you spin the top, fetch, and spin the top again, you're seeing new cards, which you can draw into by using the 2nd ability. Library being able to draw extra cards is great of course, but also very costly in terms of life.

All too often, control runs Abrupt Decays of their own, or they can Spell Pierce or Spell Snare. Top, on the other hand, is actually harder to deal with, especially if you're on the play. If Library cost 1 to play and 1 to use every time, I would totally prefer Library, but alas.

I don't see why this makes playing 3 copies of a filter bad. In fact, I would say that the ability to filter out discard and removal, especially Bolts and Punishing Fires, when you don't need it is very useful. Top is a good card on its own and we run 7 cards that care about the top card(s) of your library, making it even better. Of course, I wouldn't run more than 2 copies of Library, because it can't be shuffled back.

It's all a lot of "ifs". You fetch and the top 3 can be lands or dead cards. At least with library you can dig.

UW Control doesn't have decay, but they can counter it... leaving hymn and lilly to resolve. Seems like a good trade to me.

The issue with Top, as I said before, is that it doesn't allow you to progress the game state on its own. It ties up precious mana that library doesn't, and with everyone on the wasteland plan, I cannot justify the cost.

[Arsenal]

It's all a lot of "ifs". You fetch and the top 3 can be lands or dead cards. At least with library you can dig.

UW Control doesn't have decay, but they can counter it... leaving hymn and lilly to resolve. Seems like a good trade to me.

The issue with Top, as I said before, is that it doesn't allow you to progress the game state on its own. It ties up precious mana that library doesn't, and with everyone on the wasteland plan, I cannot justify the cost.

Decay can't be countered.