That means no Kird Apes or Loam Lions for you.Originally Posted by angel882
I think every card that deals 4 damage for that low mana cost is good enough. If every card does that, you'll only need four turns and five business cards per game. That'd be perfect for a Zoo deck.
Because they are bad?At least I think they are. If the opponent can only delay their morphing one turn, they are already bad.
Sure. Also, if you can play around Stifle with your fetches, you make that card a lot worse. Playing around Daze makes Daze a lot worse. Like playing around tempo cards, not triggering Hidden Herd is hard. Take a look at the most recent SCG Open in Edison. The T8 ran, in order, 4 basics, 1 basic, 4 basics, 1 basic, 2 basics, 0 basics, 2 basics and 4 basics. So for those decks running "heavy" on basics at 4 (2 Sneak and Shows and a Stoneblade), there's a 16% chance that you will have a non-zero number of Hidden Herds in hand at the same time that they have a non-zero number of basics. 1-in-6 games, once every other MATCH, that will happen. Assuming, of course, that you're talking about keepable hands. Because not every hand with a basic land is keepable, nor is every hand with a Hidden Herd. For a deck with only 2 basics? That chance drops to less than 9%. 1-in-11 games. For all intents and purposes, 1 in every 4 matches. Twice in a tournament.That means no Kird Apes or Loam Lions for you.
I think every card that deals 4 damage for that low mana cost is good enough. If every card does that, you'll only need four turns and five business cards per game. That'd be perfect for a Zoo deck.
Because they are bad?
Even if they have the basic, playing it on turn 1 may not be the best option. If the basic provides no action and they're time walking themselves to timewalk you, that's fine. The next turn, you drop 2 threats and now they HAVE to respond. They have to activate the Herd.
Thing is, Hidden Herd is good in Zoo. It's better than Wild Nacatl. You know, the gold standard of Zoo one-drops? This card is better. Why is it better? Because it's not vulnerable to early game Wastelands. When you go Taiga, Nacatl and your opponent Wastes, you're either fetching a Plateau the next turn (which doesn't cast any of your good threats) or you're beating for 2. Don' t have another land? You're clocking for 1. With Herd, if they Waste you, they're taking 3. Guaranteed. Which is a good way to discourage people from Wasting you. Yes, Herd is a worse topdeck. Not useless, but worse. People hit a point where they don't *need* to play any more lands to function, but I've seen people show me their hand at the end of a game to reveal a couple of Wastes or an Academy Ruins or even a couple of fetches that they didn't want to drop for fear of giving me a 3/3.
You said delaying it 1 turn makes it bad. Delaying it 1 turn makes it the same damage potential 2 turns later as Kird Ape/Loam Lion (2 turns of Herd beats is the same as 3 turns of Ape/Lion beats).
While the card isn't exactly tearing up the format, he's right, $0.50 is underpriced for the card. Seriously underpriced. Look at every other Legacy playable Saga rare. Fringe cards like Argothian Enchantress or Exploration go for $15-$25. Good rares like Sneak Attack and Show and tell go for $40-$60. Goblin Lackey is an UNCOMMON and it's $10. Those are TCG average prices. SCG prices are going to be another 10% premium over that. All it's going to take is 1 strong finish at an SCG or a GP and that card is going to spike to $10 overnight and that's being conservative. Back to back finishes? It'll hit $25+. For a card that's $0.50 now, that means anywhere from a 2000%-5000% RoI. Dealers are still selling it for that price because dealers make money dealing, not playing. So while they may be aware of some trends, mostly because they track tournament results and catch some twitter feeds from pros, they're not aware of everything and they don't evaluate Legacy cards. I mean, Hidden Herd has been viable in the format for what, a year and a half now since Goblins and Merfolk disappeared into the background? And the ones that do pop up now are generally running a splash color and Cavern of Souls, so they're not even heavily into basics anymore. The card is situationally good in this format. Look at the chart from last page and compare the Ape/Lion damage lion to ANY of the other lines and you'll realize just how big of a difference having Herd over Ape makes.
Edit: the other thing is that cards like Argothian and Exploration have been good for a while. Sneak Attack was always a card people kept track of because it was a casual favorite. How many Hidden Herds do you think became proxy fodder or were thrown away because the owner figured the card was shit? I don't see Zoo becoming 10% of the meta; it's just not that popular with Legacy players. But Herd has the potential to spike pretty high if Zoo becomes a regular part of the field.
Sure, most of your arguments are valid. And if many people start to use Herd, its value will surely spike.
Still, when you tell me it can have the same damage potential as the worst one-drops in Zoo, 2 turns later, you're exactly making my point instead of your own. I still think Herd is bad. Perhaps sometimes it'll even be better than Nacatl, but why do you think people are reluctant to play Steppe Lynx and Vexing Devil? They are sometimes brilliant, sometimes okay and sometimes very bad, and both are terrible topdecks most of the time. People don't want coinflips in their decks. They want consistency. That, and because no-one ever played them before, makes dealers and a player like myself believe Herd is bad.
But by all means prove me wrong.
How many copies of Boros Charm are people playing in their Zoo lists?
Zero is the wrong answer...
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
It's usually the same amount of Price of Progress people use. For my list, it's 2.
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
2 Windswepth Heath
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Hidden Herd
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Boros Charm
2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Path to Exile
Umezawa's Jitte maindeck is pretty good. I've been thinking what I should play for my two flex slots, and I thought: well, why not Jitte? It has been solid in Legacy since it was printed, and it can act like a backup plan when our Swarm doesn't work. Pyroclasm comes VERY handy in the sideboard, since Elves! is pretty strong, and it also kills everything in Jund (except Tarmogoyf, ofc).
I've also decided just to skip anti-Combo cards, because it's just pointless. If we want to improve those matchups in the slighetest, we need at least 6 sideboard cards for it.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
My poi t wasn't that the damage potential from a late triggered Herd was amazing. My point was that it's no worse than the BEST CASE scenario for a card you're already running. Why wouldn't you make that switch. In a corner case (and once every other match is corner case), it's merely as good as the current standard. Most of the time, it's better. That's pretty much the definition of "straight upgrade".
As far as lack of history, how long has Veteran Explorer been around? It's not that the Explorer was underrated; it simply wasn't any good until the last few years when curves came down. Same for Herd. Until Zendikar fetches completed the cycle and Merfolk went away, Herd was not good.
Again, I'm still a big fan of Goblin Guide in Zoo. 1) he doesn't always give card advantage, 2) who cares if they're dead?
The 2 power hasty body is just amazing for pushing that extra damage past blockers or for just getting in those early beats. The T1 Nacatl, T2 Goblin Guide opening is just absolutely brutal on a lot of decks. DRS just kind of "oops, I crapped my pants" against that.
Hei, if I counted correctly you are missing 1 card.
My playset just turned up in the post; going to replace my two Fireblasts and move on frm there...
My Legacy Decks of choice: Pox, Miracles, D&T or Lands.
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Current List:
4 wild nacatl
4 hidden herd
3 bloodbraid elf
3 qasali pridemage
4 steppe lynx
3 goblin guide
3 grim lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to exile
2 lightning helix
2 chain lightning
2 sulfulic vortex
2 sylvan library
4 arid mesa
3 wooded foothills
2 windswept heath
2 evolving wilds
1 mountain
1 forest
1 plains
2 stomping ground
2 sacred foundry
1 temple garden
Sideboard:
2 Vexing shusher
2 Ethersworn cannonist
1 Gaddock teeg
2 Volcanic fallout
1 Ancient grudge
2 Krosan grip
2 Tormod's crypt
1 Relic of progenitus
2 Aurelia's fury
No goyfs and duals because I am poor as fuck. Same reason for evolving wilds.
I currently like Hidden Herd a lot. It has been as reliable as Nacatl, maybe even better. Bloodbraid elf is a house and its recent banning in Modern only proved that. It is way better than KOTR or Goyf as a topdeck. Vortexes are in there since I have a lot of Cawblade guys running around in my meta. That's why I play 2 Libraries too. I have tried to adapt my sideboard to my meta(which is very versatile, but has a lot of miracles, jund, delver and a crapton of cawblade)
I would really really recommend you to swap your Evolving Wilds with Basics. You never ever want to play a tapped land in an aggro build. Never.
Did you experience problems with your life total during matches against midrange or other aggro decks?
I removed the Evolving Wilds and put in a Mountain and a Grim Lavamancer since my curve is very low. Thanks for the advice on that. I never really had life problems against Junk, Jund, Delverdecks or Maverick except against a weird version of a Delver deck with 4 colors(everything except white). That guy really ripped me apart.
I really like this list. Are you using Path to Exile in case of matches with golfs and etc (reliquary, tombstalker) in mind? I had played recently a similar list but without the Charms and Herds and white removals, and with more Price of Progress (4) and Fireblasts to achieve a quicker win, though my results weren't very good in the tourney I ran with that list.
How'd it fare?
The more I look at Experiment One the more I like it as another Wild Nacatl. Am I the only one? Has anyone tested it?
After all it does get pumped from Loam Lion, Kird Ape, Wild Nacatl, Goyf, Pridemage, Goblin guide, so it being a 3/3 for is quite reasonable.
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It might be a good creature but it is not in a deck like Zoo. It is in best cases as good as Nacatl on T1, but only if your T2 plays are Guide and Nacatl. Normally it isn't even that good. It comes close to a GG affected by summoning sickness. EVERY other creature that has the same CMC is better. GG: Haste. Nacatl: 3/3(reliable). Herd: see Nacatl. Steppe Lynx: atleast 2/3 when attacking. Loam Lion, Kird Ape: 2/3. It simply doesn't cut it in Zoo, but if you wanna test it, go on and see for yourself.
Hi, Experiment One has been great in my naya zoo hilander so that's why I'm really interested how it would work in legacy zoo.
What have people found to be the best options for this deck to stop:
Storm
Show And Tell
Canonist for Storm.
Dunno about SnT.
I agree with Martin, Experiment One doesn't seem to fit in with Zoo. If you are looking for a good addition to your list you should try Hidden Herd. It is very consistent and some others here on the forums have already made some good cases for it. I've been playing Hidden Herd in my list for a couple of weeks now and it looks to be very good.
Storm = Ethersworn Canonist
Show and Tell = Oblivion Ring
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
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