I'll be trying a black splash for maindeck Lingering Souls this Wednesday. It's something I wanted to do since the card came out, but now I have the cards to actually do it. The idea is the tokens will help to buy time against aggro, and to fight planeswalkers.
It's definitely a reasonable card (for non-RIP lists of course), and one of the few I would want to be in black for. I played it in a few different pre-miracle esper counterbalance lists and it was always a solid card.Originally Posted by Malakai
I'd be curious to see how that is for you, and what other black cards you're running.
Black splash would allow you to run Vindicate also in place of people running the 1-of Detention Sphere, Vedalken Shackles, etc. Just a thought.
Oh sure, vindicate is a lock if you aren't playing E Tutor. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is reasonable, as is some discard, etc.
The only issue with Vindicate is you start to get rather top heavy. Never forget that Snapcaster counts as a 3-drop for your curve (but not your Counterbalance). Additionally, one should be mindful of their blue card count. Without Vindicate, I already have 17 non-blue, non-land cards (4 Terminus, 4 StP, 3 Lingering Souls, 4 Top, 2 Entreat). Full disclosure: I ended up cutting my 1x Vindicate for 1x Spell Pierce.
Sure, makes sense for snapcaster builds. Personally I've never liked snapcaster even in the earliest builds of the deck, so I tend not to think about him too much.
Blue count is definitely important, and I'm very close on that right now. (I have 20 nonblue, nonland cards - 4 StP, 3 Terminus, 2 E Tutor, 3 RIP, 4 Top, 1 Helm, 1 Entreat, 1 Blood Moon, 1 EE), with 21 lands that leaves me with only 19 blue cards. Hmm, probably need to cut down on the pitch spells.
The biggest problem with the Black splash that I had was that I couldn't run REBs. Vindicate and Lingering Souls are really good, but the deck can have a lot of trouble with opposing Jaces and nothing can beat Jace like an REB. Also, like it was said, the deck becomes quite top heavy with another four or so 3-drops being added.
Doesn't Lingering Souls beat Jace?
Engineered Plague also helps shore the Goblins matchup.
Not as well as you'd think without equipment or more pressure. They are either running Souls of their own or Terminus. And since Souls are (for the most part) your only creatures, they'll likely have some removal sitting around. Best case, they still get at least one, likely two uses out of Jace before you can kill it.
I think shore is a huge understatement. Plague turns Goblins from a pretty rough MU to pretty easy. I don't think it's worth it though when SFM -> Jitte also goes a long way.
I have a question.
Why run Blood Moon over Back to Basics? BTB is easier to cast and does essentially the same thing without screwing our manabase and still allows us to fetch under Sensei's Top.
Blood Moon has more upside and less downside. Blood Moon does almost nothing to us if we have been preparing for it. The deck can easily run off two basic Islands, one Plains (though preferably two), and over 9000 Mountains. Back to Basics can easily screw us since Miracles is so mana hungry (Entreat, Jace, Topping, etc). What if you use that Tundra to Top at the end of their turn or in response to a Counterbalance trigger? Now you can't use it to cast Jace the next turn.
Not only is B2B worse for you, but it is much, much easier for your opponent to get out of. BUG or Jund has a bunch of tapped lands? Darn. Play a fetch, pass, play a fetch, pass, end of your turn crack and Abrupt Decay B2B, move on with life.
1. Vindicate vs REB
REB is over-rated. In this kind of control deck, you want to control the board to the fullest extent, you want your CB and Rest in Peace in play. Vindicate is the swiss-army-knife just as Abrupt Decay serves the same purpose any BUG/Jund variants. Vindicate can take care things from Liliana, Jace, resolved EE, to Grove of the Burnwillows to Sulfuric Vortex and just about everything else, can't say the same for REB.
If I were to use REB to fight counter war, I much rather have Flusterstorm, cause it gets the job done (think MU against Show and Tell, against High Tide), and it doesn't just limit itself to fight blue spells, and it is Misdirection-proof.
If I were to use REB to get rid of a Blue Permanent, its target is either Jace or CB. In that case, Vindicate has a better chance of resolving against CB.
2. Resource war: Vindicate + Snapcaster Mage
This is great even against decks that run 4 Deathrite Shaman. The first thing opponent would try to remove is StP, not Vindicate. 5 Mana for a spell seems a lot, but against BUG/Jund, often you guys get into top-deck war anyway (thank to Liliana), and Vindicate is The Card to get rid of Grove of the Burnwillows.
3. Lingering soul vs Vindicate, and Duress
Black opens up even more SB options, most notably Duress. Duress is Misdirection-proof; and it is great against Show and Tell variants. One can argue that Duress can replace the Clique slot, perfectly debatable. Lingering Soul should NOT be the justification for Black splash, Vindicate is. Lingering Soul is the tipping point between Esper Miracle and Esper Stoneblade. Once you take the path of Lingering Soul, you'll eventually go to SFM package with Jitte. Just try Vindicate MD w/ black splash, you'll feel the difference for sure.
This deck already has the tools to control a board stack with creatures and art/enchantments properly, in the form of Terminus, Plows, EE and Disenchants/Detention Spheres. What it lacks, of course, is a good number of answers to a resolved Jace (only your own can break theirs, but it's still having done disadvantage), as well as VCLique being randomly a problem postboard when you side out the removal package in the mirror.
Guess which card solves both the issues, as well as being the best and the cheapest answer to the best color in Legacy piloted (arguably) by the best players/or better, the players you're mostly like to face at higher tables?
Flusterstorm, although insane against combo, is pretty much for that. It does what it does in the best way possible, but it's really narrow. REB not only doubles the protection in that matchup, it is a 1-card-swiss-knife that has a really broad range of applications and also fills in perfectly in the structure of Miracle Control (just 1 mana to be cast, lets you stay open, can be easily Topped into, Snap+Reb costs 3).
If you REB a Jace while it's on stack, you trade 1x1.
If you Vindicate a Jace already resolved, they have at least Brainstomed once, meaning you're doing 1x2.
If you REB a Counterbalance on stack, you trade 1x1.
If you Vindicate a CB already resolved, they have the chance to flip a cc3.
And with Vindicate, you tap out in both cases.
...
You don't have a real grasp of REB's strength in the control mirror, do you?
If your metagame has a good percentage of Control decks (Stoneblade and Miracle), REB is a no-brainer.
The only downside is splashing the manabase with 2 Volcanics, and that's it.
Keep in mind also Blood Moon (since from what I read here it seems that Jund is a bad matchup, while I don't think so with 3 Entreat the Angels-I'm not refering to the clunky Rest in Peace version, obv) and Pyroclasm in that colour, both powerhouses in the era of Deathrite Shaman and Dark Confidant decks.
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since you asked, why don't you tell me, do you have a real grasp?
1. Pyroclasm? Seriously?
When you mention Pyroclasm as your excuse for running red, you should just stop right there. Aren't you the same person mentioning something like "Terminus, Plows, EE" to control a board? Seriously, are you telling me that you want to add Pyroclasm because... every published SCG deck list for Miracle players has it in the SB? or is it just because you want to justify running Red?
2. tap-out?
When you mention Blood Moon, your logic fails again. First of all, you write that your understanding of Jund-bad-matchup is based on other people's finding, how credible is your suggestion/assessment then? Second, your tap-out is Never a good comeback, when you want to refute Vindicate. Oh, are you saying that Miracle player would tap out to play Vindicate, but Not tap out to play O-ring/Blood Moon?
3. CC 3
Have you ever play Miracle? Flip CC 3 is Not as easy as it sounds, even harder without Top. This is especially true when you play RiP version, since they often cut Clique and reduce the number of O-ring/DSphere by increasing the number of ETutor to justify. Nevertheless, do you even understand the degree of difficulty level when you draw REB later, and try to blast a resolved CB?
4. Clunky?
Can REB deal with Liliana/Dark Confidant/Goyf/Grove of the Burnwillows/Candelabra of Tawnos? Since you don't like RiP version, I would imagine you can just sit there and wait for Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows to burn you out then. Your so-called "clunky" RiP version has the following success:
SCG Legacy Open Cincinnati Top 16
SCG Legacy Open Edison Top 32
SCG Legacy Open Atlanta Top 8
While I have tremendous respect for Joe or others who try to do well with the traditional version, they have finished at lower place than "clunky" RiP version, at the time of this writing, based on February's data, and that's just facts.
You bring flawed arguments to bash my assumptions of red. You basically took my words and reasons to play red and twisted them in a convolute way so that they sound false or illogical. I'll try to go the kind way another time and repeat myself:
-Pyroclasm as a 1 or 2-of is a mini-Wrath of God that empties the board of Elves, Jund (except Tarmogoyf, where you have plows), Merfolk, and Goblins. White has still the tools, yes, but adding a couple more removals ensures you that you will be more comfortable in getting rid of pesky creatures, instead of smashing your head to find the Terminus.
-Blood Moon is worth tapping out, since it's an automatic "I win" the moment it touches the ground in the matchups where it gets boarded in. Do you see the difference between this and a "tap 3, I destroy a permanent"?
It also deals with ALL the Grove of the Burnwillows, while your Vindicate only deals with 1.
"Tap 3, destroy a land", against "Tap 3, shut off your whole fucking deck". Lol #1.
-Cc3 to be flipped to Counterbalance is low, but still existing. Pyroblasting a Counterbalance while on stack is way more safe. I can recognize that Pyroblasting a CB already resolved is hard, but does Vindicate keep Snapcaster off from doing advantage, Clique off screwing your hand and let your opponent knowing your plans, and Jace doing a Brainstorm at least once? Can you still deny this? The permanents you mentioned are worthless and are dealt with a thousand ways by the other cards of the deck (most of all even by the red sideboard cards we're talking about, ironically). And about Liliana, if you lose to Liliana then leave this deck on the desk before a tournament. And Candelabra of Tawnos? Like,
"Tap 3 sorcery-speed to destroy your Candelabra"
"Ok, untap, i combo you off while you're tapped"?
Lol #2.
-To answer your question and cut it off with the argument, because I don't really need to convince you: yes, I have played Miracle several times, and I think I can understand it quite well. I frankly don't give a shit about the RiP version having placed more results in SCG, as I don't give a shit about SCG results in general, since most of it is biased by the general quality being really poor, with the exception of that small percentage of local good players or pros that always place well (a coincidence?).
I can bring you the counterargument that in Europe the best players all tend to play the other version, the one without the shitty permanents, but I won't bother.
The problem with the Rip version is that it has a huge mass of cards that won't do anything on an unfavorable board while Jund and other BGx decks are beating the shit out of you, and postboard is way more susceptible to hate. You're putting all your eggs into permanents that need to stick on the ground to be effective, while Decay, Explosives, Reb and Disenchant will just tear you apart.
Tinefol, who is a player I really give credit to, already summarized this well some posts ago.
Good luck with playing Vindicate in Miracle Control.
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RiP-Helm is terribad.
Since I have never played a real event with RIP/Helm, I can't say anything other than that I am still happy playing my list that does not have them. As to the debate about red or black, I am sticking with red. Vindicate is probably nice, but in any sort of mirror I would much rather have REB/Pyroblast. Others have said the same thing, but I will repeat that countering a Counterbalance or Jace is much better than hoping to be able to destroy it after it hits the board. Vindicate would be much better against MUD or 12post, but neither of those show up enough to sway my opinion. I also like Sulfur Elemental quite a bit.
I don't much like RiP/Helm, but I don't think that the pure version is the best right now. I've been having a lot of success with the SFM package so far.
I don't know if Sulfur Elemental is good enough (or versatile enough) compared to other creatures like Baneslayer or Venser that we can board into. I have something of a flex slot at the moment and there are a decent number of Stoneblade players in my meta, so I might give one a try anyways. Also, how are people boarding against Stoneblade? For a while I was boarding out 4 FoW, 2 Swords, 2 Terminus... but lately I've been thinking of just ditching all the Swords in favor of Terminus (mostly due to Souls and Geist).
The problem with Stoneforge Mystic I had was that they could always kill the batterskull token with liliana (which is played really often now). Also it makes your own mass removal worse and their removal better. Maybe a good idea would be too put stoneforge mystic + friends in a kind of transformational sideboard?
As for boarding against Stoneblade my (unsuccessfull so far though) plan was to increase the force of will /spell pierce / counterspell count and focus on resolving a counterbalance. I tried boarding out Rest in Piece once because I thought my opponent would board out snapcaster mage + lingering souls but he didn't and thus it was a very bad idea :-) I also board in Entreat the Angels because the game will not end very soon which makes ETA amazing. I boarded out Pithing Needle (because naming it on jace prevents my own one), Humility and 2 Enlightened Tutors (because of the card disadvantage which matters more with all the discard and counterspells).
Also it is important to watch out for Vindicate (+Snapcaster Mage) killing Jace or Counterbalance.
Well, unless they have removal + Liliana, you're just sacrificing the SFM. Even in Stoneblade and especially in Miracles, SFM usually isn't something that you want to just roll out early without protection.
As for mass removal, it's more than just cute to /tap to use SFM's ability and in response use Top to trigger Terminus, leaving you with a 4/4 lifelinking Germ VS an empty board.
I'm pretty sure leaving in FoW and boarding in more Entreats is wrong. FoW is usually particularly bad against Discard and they have enough Spell Pierces and counter magic where I'd consider Entreat one of my less reliable wincons (that's not to say leaving in 1-2 isn't fine since late game it can be great and 3 drops are hard to come by). RiP is alright, but they aren't particularly backbreaking either. I wonder how Blood Moon is against them? Likely too cute though. Regardless, I feel pretty safe boarding out Swords since at worst I can survive a couple Batterskull hits before I stabilize, but perhaps there are worse slots?
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