[Deck] Goblins

[magicmerl]

Nice writeup GB. With your removal suite, do you not want at least one Tarfire, just as a tutorable removal?

[sdematt]

In all honesty, I fear Incinerator way more than Tarfire. Tarfire makes Goyf so damn happy.

-Matt

[Avatara]

6 Mountain

Why do you need six mountains?

Tarfire will often result in card disadvantage vs Tarmogoyf.. sure you trade 1 for 1 with a DRS, but many times you will need an additional card to kill a Goyf, as a result.

[jrw1985]

Since I apparently don't play Magic anymore I thought I'd post an interesting rules factoid I stumbled across today rather than bullshit an opinion about MUs I've never played. Here goes....

You can respond to Deathrite Shaman's first ability. You can prevent them from adding mana by removing the land they target. True story.

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulesti...hout-a-target/

The reason you can do this is that DRS doesn't actually have a mana ability. Apparently, a mana ability is defined by the rules as an ability that has no targets. Shaman’s ability targets, meaning that the ability is NOT a mana ability; it uses the stack, and it can be responded to.

I wasn't aware of this bit of rules chicanery. Relic just got a whole bunch more appealing. It prevents your opponent from ever exploiting your GY and it's a potent card all around. Good stuff, that. It's probably a better T1 drop on the draw than Vial or Lackey these days.

[Vandalize]

Nice write up, GoboLord. But as for removal split, Dismember really sucks. Swords to Plowshares outclasses it by a mile. It doesn't have P/T restrictions (I mean, not a lot of creatures are 5+/5+, maybe a Knight), and it also doesn't have the life requirement. Giving away those lifepoints might hurt sometimes, but as a deck that carries 4 Goblin Piledriver, your damage output will usually be more than lethal.

Tweeking your list a little bit, I'd find this:

Lands [22]
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
3 Wooded Foothills

Creatures [30]
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Chieftain

Spells [8]
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard [15]
4 Rest in Peace
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Disenchant
2 Boartusk Liege
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Pithing Needle

[Avatara]

Lands [22]
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
3 Wooded Foothills

Creatures [30]
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Chieftain

Spells [8]
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard [15]
4 Rest in Peace
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Disenchant
2 Boartusk Liege
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Pithing Needle

Are you sure you don't want any answers to Jitte and Batterskull maindeck? Not even Prospector or a single Taiga + TSH? That would also allow you to replace disenchant with Krosan Grip. And what'st he point in running 3 Thalia in the sideboard? The point of Thalia is to run it main deck with additional combo hate coming in from the sideboard. I doubt that 3 Thalia (in the sideboard) is good enough to effectively fight combo.. might as well drop it all together.

[Vandalize]

Are you sure you don't want any answers to Jitte and Batterskull maindeck? Not even Prospector or a single Taiga + TSH? That would also allow you to replace disenchant with Krosan Grip. And what'st he point in running 3 Thalia in the sideboard? The point of Thalia is to run it main deck with additional combo hate coming in from the sideboard. I doubt that 3 Thalia (in the sideboard) is good enough to effectively fight combo.. might as well drop it all together.

Well, Jitte is a problem in game 1. Maybe swap that Chieftain for a Prospector.

Mindbreak Trap is better against Storm, and Pyroblast is better against Sneak and Show. Thalia is good against both decks. She can also pull her weight against RUG Delver.

[GoboLord]

@ Magicmerl: Matt pretty much answered your question. I like the reach that Bolt provides (see explanation below). Plus, I never felt like tutoring a removal other than Gempalm Incinerator anyway. Those cc1-removal solts are dedicated effectively deal with creatures in early turns, while not losing much of their value if you draw them naturally later in game.

Why do you need six mountains?

I don't really get your question. What's wrong with 6 Mountains?

The reason you can do this is that DRS doesn't actually have a mana ability. Apparently, a mana ability is defined by the rules as an ability that has no targets. Shaman’s ability targets, meaning that the ability is NOT a mana ability; it uses the stack, and it can be responded to.

I wasn't aware of this bit of rules chicanery. Relic just got a whole bunch more appealing. It prevents your opponent from ever exploiting your GY and it's a potent card all around. Good stuff, that. It's probably a better T1 drop on the draw than Vial or Lackey these days.

Well, I was aware of that. And I decided for RIP and against Relic for 2 reasons:
(1) RIP keeps Tarmogoyfs at 0/1, like always
(2) I think the most important abilities of DRS that we want to shut down is it's "mana"-ability and it's lifeloss. Looking at most BGx lists, they run 8-9 fetchies, with an additional 3-4 Wastelands and 15-25 soreceries/instants. Since Relic can't target cards in an opponent's graveyard (it only targets the player) I think they will often use their own graveyard to enable their abilities.

Still, thanks for pointing that one out, since it's not the most obvious interaction that we have with DRS.

But as for removal split, Dismember really sucks. Swords to Plowshares outclasses it by a mile.

That's not true.
I included Dismember mostly because it can be cast out of an Caverns or Wasteland, while StoP has harder restrictions. The range of both cards doesn't matter, as you already pointed out. However, after yesterday's testing session I decided to cut 1 Dismember in favor of Lightning Bolt, since the lifeloss was an issue sometimes.
Also, regarding your list: What I found special about my list was the high number of cc1 removal, and I think thats what I want to keep up. So only 4 StoP (i.e. less than 6 cc1 removalspells) isn't going to happen for me, even less so when considering that I fell in love with Lightning Bolt's burn-damage (which is relevant for ocassionally catching an opponent off guard and killing him in response on DRS's green ability or blasting up Liliana).

And what'st he point in running 3 Thalia in the sideboard? The point of Thalia is to run it main deck with additional combo hate coming in from the sideboard. I doubt that 3 Thalia (in the sideboard) is good enough to effectively fight combo.. might as well drop it all together.

True, Thalia does not fight combo on her own, and I doubt that the combination of Thalia+Graveyard hate will do the job.
I still find Thalia good card vs. tempo-decks (like Team America and RUG Threshold), however, here RIP might be enough. Any suggestions on what to run instead of Thalia?


//EDIT: Thank you guys for your replies. I'm glad my posting was able to start a JUND-centered discussion!

[magicmerl]

@ Magicmerl: Matt pretty much answered your question. I like the reach that Bolt provides (see explanation below). Plus, I never felt like tutoring a removal other than Gempalm Incinerator anyway. Those cc1-removal solts are dedicated effectively deal with creatures in early turns, while not losing much of their value if you draw them naturally later in game.

Fair enough. I'm definitely a big fan of Gempalms.

I don't really get your question. What's wrong with 6 Mountains?

You never need more than 5. So the 6th one can either be another plateau or another fetch, giving you more white sources.

Well, I was aware of that. And I decided for RIP and against Relic for 2 reasons:
(1) RIP keeps Tarmogoyfs at 0/1, like always
(2) I think the most important abilities of DRS that we want to shut down is it's "mana"-ability and it's lifeloss. Looking at most BGx lists, they run 8-9 fetchies, with an additional 3-4 Wastelands and 15-25 soreceries/instants. Since Relic can't target cards in an opponent's graveyard (it only targets the player) I think they will often use their own graveyard to enable their abilities.

Yeah, RIP really does a number on GB, since it shuts down their enablers AND their win condition. I think that 4 RIP is the right number in the board.

That's not true.
I included Dismember mostly because it can be cast out of an Caverns or Wasteland, while StoP has harder restrictions. The range of both cards doesn't matter, as you already pointed out. However, after yesterday's testing session I decided to cut 1 Dismember in favor of Lightning Bolt, since the lifeloss was an issue sometimes.
Also, regarding your list: What I found special about my list was the high number of cc1 removal, and I think thats what I want to keep up. So only 4 StoP (i.e. less than 6 cc1 removalspells) isn't going to happen for me, even less so when considering that I fell in love with Lightning Bolt's burn-damage (which is relevant for ocassionally catching an opponent off guard and killing him in response on DRS's green ability or blasting up Liliana).

Wait, you run 4 StP MD?

True, Thalia does not fight combo on her own, and I doubt that the combination of Thalia+Graveyard hate will do the job.
I still find Thalia good card vs. tempo-decks (like Team America and RUG Threshold), however, here RIP might be enough. Any suggestions on what to run instead of Thalia?

No suggestion from me sorry. I'm all aboard the Thalia train. In unrelated news, how are people finding Thalia MD?

I find she's effectively preboarding vs several decks, which might be sub-optimal in other matchups, but she's still worth it because
1. Those matchups where we need her we REALLY need her, and
2. She has the side effect of giving us an 18 card sideboard. E.g.

57 goblins
3 Thalia

Sideboard (15 other SB cards)
4 Rest in Peace (vs BG, dredge)
4 Chalice of the Void (vs combo)
3 Pyrokinesis (vs aggro)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (vs Jitte, aggro)
1 Boartusk Liege (vs Engineered Plague)
1 Krosan Grip (vs artifacts and enchantments....)

How does that look? I'm keenly aware that we don't want to oversideboard against decks.

[GoboLord]

Fair enough. I'm definitely a big fan of Gempalms.

I'm also leaning towards Gempalm, but I think 4 is too much right now, since it's not very reliably dealing with SFM and DRS on turn 1-3. That's why I'm down to 3.

You never need more than 5. So the 6th one can either be another plateau or another fetch, giving you more white sources.

I always try to run as many basiclands as possible. I love basiclands. I highly doubt that I "never need more than 5".

Wait, you run 4 StP MD?

No, I was saying that running only 4 cc1 removal isn't going to happen for me right now . And If I were to run only 4 it would probably still be a split between StoP and Bolts.

[Vandalize]

No, I was saying that running only 4 cc1 removal isn't going to happen for me right now . And If I were to run only 4 it would probably still be a split between StoP and Bolts.

Hmm, what about:

Lands [22]
5 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau

Creatures [28]
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells [10]
4 AEther Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt

SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 3 Disenchant
SB: 2 Boartusk Liege
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Pyrokinesis

[Avatara]

I don't really get your question. What's wrong with 6 Mountains?

Is there some kind of hidden mechanic in the deck that requires you to play 6 mountains? You're obviously not trying to dodge Price of Progress or Wasteland otherwise you wouldn't run so many non basics (duals, wasteland, cavern etc). You might as well run more fetch or dual lands to optimize your splash or maybe even splash for an additional color or two. I personally don't think that you ever need more than 2 basic mountains in a Rx Goblin list.

[B-rad]

Hmm, what about:

Lands [22]
5 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau

Creatures [28]
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells [10]
4 AEther Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt

SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 3 Disenchant
SB: 2 Boartusk Liege
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Pyrokinesis

That's wayyy too many non goblins cards. Your ringleaders will be below average. Also you don't really have a toolbox for your matrons like a sharpshooter, prospector, or a guy that blows up an artifact.

[Vandalize]

That's wayyy too many non goblins cards. Your ringleaders will be below average. Also you don't really have a toolbox for your matrons like a sharpshooter, prospector, or a guy that blows up an artifact.

I agree that the Ringleaders are worse. But, the toolbox isn't pulling its weight. Sharpshooter and Tin Street Hooligan are really dead in a LOT of matchups, and the extra removal gives an edge against RUG Delver and BGx decks.

This list will lose some percentage of wins against Stoneblade, but it will shore up the BGx matchup a lot, since Sharpshooter and Tin Street Hooligan are really useless on those matchups.

[BigBopper]

I agree that the Ringleaders are worse. But, the toolbox isn't pulling its weight. Sharpshooter and Tin Street Hooligan are really dead in a LOT of matchups, and the extra removal gives an edge against RUG Delver and BGx decks.

This list will lose some percentage of wins against Stoneblade, but it will shore up the BGx matchup a lot, since Sharpshooter and Tin Street Hooligan are really useless on those matchups.

That's not true. BUG lists do run a random Jitte without SFM of course but with it's cantrips its definetly easy to find it when they need it. JunK lists run SFM as well as stoneblade lists and (Punishing) Jund lists have 1-2 in SB. So TSH is a must have, sharpshooter is awesome vs. Lingering souls and the rise of Belcher.

[orcanmail]

In all honesty, I fear Incinerator way more than Tarfire. Tarfire makes Goyf so damn happy.

-Matt

That is why if you pack tarfire maindeck to target deathrite shamans etc, then relic of progenitus needs to come in from sideboard against Goyfs.

[Avatara]

That is why if you pack tarfire maindeck to target deathrite shamans etc, then relic of progenitus needs to come in from sideboard against Goyfs.

With relic in play even a one damage ping kills goyfs.. I once killed two goyf and a kotr (vesper green) with a single pyrokenesis. Should have seen the look on his face nothing he could have done.

/edit: Forked bolt would also be good when combined with relic

[Mr. Froggy]

I tested vs. Junk and found it was a good match-up. Albeit, all our games were pre-board and we didn't side once.

[Vandalize]

That's not true. BUG lists do run a random Jitte without SFM of course but with it's cantrips its definetly easy to find it when they need it. JunK lists run SFM as well as stoneblade lists and (Punishing) Jund lists have 1-2 in SB. So TSH is a must have, sharpshooter is awesome vs. Lingering souls and the rise of Belcher.

Those same lists run 12~16 creatures. Which you can really keep in check with 9 removal + Siege-Gang Commander. Post-board I can bring Disenchant to fight any artifact.

[ceustice]

Question for the Goblin experts, I've noticed several post with people splashing W or non goblin cards or just when you sideboard in non goblin cards; is it not frustrating to Ringleader past them when you really need them or do you have to play the deck just hoping not to hit them. I just can't bring myself to put in Bolt over Tarfire even though the arguments against Tarfire are valid the fetch-ability and Ringleadering into out way that in my mind. All these thoughts are from a guy whose never played the deck and I'm really only building it as another loner deck.