All B/R update speculation.

[Mr Miagi]

Can we ban all members advocating Brainstorm ban?

It would do forum a favour.

Thank you.

[menace13]

The only solution is to bring in Ari Lax's proposed Ban list. But, then everyone would just find the next best card that is too good/easy/unfair/dumb/fast/blue.

[Amon Amarth]

The only solution is to bring in Ari Lax's proposed Ban list. But, then everyone would just find the next best card that is too good/easy/unfair/dumb/fast/blue.

Finally! Then we can end the tyranny of Wild Nacatl once and for all!

[menace13]

Finally! Then we can end the tyranny of Wild Nacatl once and for all!

/me adds Delver to list.

[FieryBalrog]

I've seen stifle out of show and tell sideboards to combat said cards. And honestly, I don't blame them with people playing bullshit like angel of despair. When you put omniscience into play and stifle for free, it's great. I even got stifled out of the game manabase wise with high tide against show and tell where I got stuck on 1 land due to his double stifle draw.

Brainstorm isn't a problem at all. When people go on tirades against brainstorm you're just wasting your breath. The card isn't getting banned because it enables all decks equally, it's not like brainstorm is better in one deck than it is in all the others like mystical tutor.

How people keep repeating this nonsense is beyond me. Brainstorm automatically puts you in a blue shell. Which automatically cuts you off from certain cards and makes certain other cards less attractive. It also pushes you towards a heavier focus on instants and sorceries. Realistically, playing brainstorm means you are built around one of the following: Jace, Delver, Storm combo, Show & Tell.

Think about the deck types that existed (and occasionally placed) a few years ago and earlier, which have all but disappeared or become irrelevant. All stompy decks (dragon, angel, sea, etc.). All prison decks. All pox/black control decks. All loam decks. Zoo decks. Enchantress decks. Even dredge is getting close to irrelevant these days. Instead you have 10x little variations and flavors on a basic tempo thresh or Jace skeleton. And a couple of combo deck types, one of which is the absurdly stupid Show & Tell based stuff. Almost nothing new and interesting has come up to take its place, save... Jund? Which isn't new OR interesting, actually?

How exciting!

[menace13]

How people keep repeating this nonsense is beyond me.
Think about the deck types that existed (and occasionally placed) a few years ago and earlier, which have all but disappeared or become irrelevant. All stompy decks (dragon, angel, sea, etc.). All prison decks. All pox/black control decks Enchantress decks.
How exciting!

Yeah, Those Pox/Stompy/Prison decks were really putting up those numbers there, pal....

Those decks have the exact same chance to place now as they did before- which is very low, that hasn't changed-.

Stop it five.

[AEnesidem]

How people keep repeating this nonsense is beyond me. Brainstorm automatically puts you in a blue shell. Which automatically cuts you off from certain cards and makes certain other cards less attractive. It also pushes you towards a heavier focus on instants and sorceries. Realistically, playing brainstorm means you are built around one of the following: Jace, Delver, Storm combo, Show & Tell.

Think about the deck types that existed (and occasionally placed) a few years ago and earlier, which have all but disappeared or become irrelevant. All stompy decks (dragon, angel, sea, etc.). All prison decks. All pox/black control decks. All loam decks. Zoo decks. Enchantress decks. Even dredge is getting close to irrelevant these days. Instead you have 10x little variations and flavors on a basic tempo thresh or Jace skeleton. And a couple of combo deck types, one of which is the absurdly stupid Show & Tell based stuff. Almost nothing new and interesting has come up to take its place, save... Jund? Which isn't new OR interesting, actually?

How exciting!

let's clarify some things here. These archetypes you said "existed", they didn't "dissapear" because of brainstorm. They "dissapeared" because the format as a whole advanced and creature quality went up. Those prison decks/pox/enchantress are still there. The difference is, most decks got new stronger cretaures to play with but these prison decks didn't get new strong spells to keep up. At the time these decks were more present in legacy brainstorm was already there. These decks have always had consistency issues and they will always have, in legacy one of the basic requirements for cards/decks is consistency in their performance.
I guess zoo has been hurt by the printing of sfm+batterskull and snapcaster mage, as have many aggro archetypes. The lack of diversity and innovation you feel is caused by wizards printing somestupid cards that are so good, they automaticly become staples in a certain color. Think about: Jace TMS, SFM+batterskull, and ofcourse the blue beater Delver of secrets. Cards like terminus have influenced legacy hugely too in a sense. That aggro beats control isn't the reality we live in anymore, An aggro deck that wants to beat miracles now has to be able to go into the late game and win the attrition war. ON the other side, one of the biggest factors influencing the diversity of legacy is netdecking. Everyone netdecks, and with magic invading internet more and more with coverage, articles and forums, more and more people are searching the internet for tips, tricks and decks.

On the "there's nothing new", here's some new decks since the new era of magic: Jund, 12-post, miracle control/rip helm, omnishow, shardless BUG, oops all spells, blade control/stoneblade and i'm sure there's some more. Fact is, this lack of diversity we seem to see on the internet isn't really the case IRL. When i go to tournaments i still see people taking their pet decks. I still face MUD, dredge, merfolk, DnT, pox etc... It's not like i'm facing 3 decks all day. It's just that competitive players will often choose blue, why? because the color is skill intensive, fun, covers your ass against combo and rewards a skillful player very well. Brainstorm in the hands of an incompetent player is worth nothing more than a bad cantrip.

I'd like to say though i'm currently very happy with the format. Everyone who plays legacy in tournaments knows that the format is pretty diverse now (despite the DRS/AD mania). I do hate abrupt decay and the fact it is uncounterable but the release of Deathrite Shaman and abrupt decay have given black and green a new powerlevel and are maybe the first step to balance out the color pie.

[majikal]

Yeah, Those Pox/Stompy/Prison decks were really putting up those numbers there, pal....

Those decks have the exact same chance to place now as they did before- which is very low, that hasn't changed-.

Stop it five.

Actually MUD and Pox (both Mono-B and Bg) each put up pretty significant numbers in the months leading up to the printing of Griselbrand.

[Lemnear]

How people keep repeating this nonsense is beyond me. Island automatically puts you in a blue shell. Which automatically cuts you off from certain cards and makes certain other cards less attractive. It also pushes you towards a heavier focus on instants and sorceries. Realistically, playing Island means you are built around one of the following: Jace, Delver, Storm combo, Show & Tell.

Think about the deck types that existed (and occasionally placed) a few years ago and earlier, which have all but disappeared or become irrelevant. All stompy decks (dragon, angel, sea, etc.). All prison decks. All pox/black control decks. All loam decks. Zoo decks. Enchantress decks. Even dredge is getting close to irrelevant these days. Instead you have 10x little variations and flavors on a basic tempo thresh or Jace skeleton. And a couple of combo deck types, one of which is the absurdly stupid Show & Tell based stuff. Almost nothing new and interesting has come up to take its place, save... Jund? Which isn't new OR interesting, actually?

How exciting!

Fixed that 4 you.


Seriously, most of your mentioned decks just got outdated by the power creep printed in the last 6 years or were always questionable deckchoices like stompy, enchantress, Painter or Aluren. Zoo is still a solid choice, don't let SCG results trick you. I would rather complain how the power creep did speed up Legacy in the last years so slower archetypes were pushed out of the metagame:

A 1cc creature has to be up with Delver or Shaman to be compeditive
A 2cc creature has to be up with Goofy or Dark Confidant to be compeditive
A 3cc creature has to be up with KotR to be compeditive
A 4cc card has to be named Jace or have to win the Game immediately to be compeditive

If anyone thinks, it's the right solution to chop ol' cards, so WotC can left their both feet on the gas for power creep without care, disrespects the Format and the Players which made it what it is today. It can't become the norm that WotC and the players support a mindset which basically says: "lets see how long we can keep this shit going till we crash...". I fucking demand some foresight from Design & Development. You can't print Vegevine and Fauna Shaman and still claim you hadn't thought of SotF and ban SotF so you can continue printing borderline broken creatures. You can't Design a flying blue nacatl which Flips via Library Manipulation and forget about Brainstorm. You can't print Griz, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, Gin Gitaxias and Omniscience without thinking about Show&Tell or Reanimation. You just can't. It's like printing Yawgmoth's will for BBB and then "have to" ban dark Ritual and LED because you "Forgot" about them.

"Jesus! It's not the cherry on the double choc sundae with caramel creme toping that makes you fat, kid!"

/rant

[xfxf]

Brainstorm automatically puts you in a blue shell. Which automatically cuts you off from certain cards and makes certain other cards less attractive. It also pushes you towards a heavier focus on instants and sorceries.

And playing green automatically pushes you towards a heavier focus on creatures and permanents. What's wrong with that? That's why we have the color pie.

[menace13]

Actually MUD and Pox (both Mono-B and Bg) each put up pretty significant numbers in the months leading up to the printing of Griselbrand.

MUD, yeah. How many Pox decks, where exactly? Where can this been proved? C'mon mannnn

[Zilla]

Realistically, playing brainstorm means you are built around one of the following: Jace, Delver, Storm combo, Show & Tell.

So a format where many variants of Control, Aggro Control, and Combo are all viable? Sounds awful.

[Kich867]

A 1cc creature has to be up with Delver or Shaman to be compeditive
A 2cc creature has to be up with Goofy or Dark Confidant to be compeditive
A 3cc creature has to be up with KotR to be compeditive
A 4cc card has to be named Jace or have to win the Game immediately to be compeditive

This is one of those mantras that always irritated me. None of that is accurate, and all of it is situationally based on deck synergies.

There are plenty of good one drop creatures that can be wildly powerful depending on the deck: Goblin Guide, Nimble Mongoose, Steppe Lynx, Mother of Runes, Grim Lavamancer, etc.

More importantly though, if you just build a deck correctly, there are a ton of powerful 4 drops that don't "win the game" but are devastatingly powerful.

I built a Naya Aggro Loam deck with a few 3 mana / 4 mana card choices that haven't ever seen competitive legacy play but in playtesting are complete bombs because they just fit well with the deck.

If you just build a deck that will get to that much mana, then there is nothing wrong with including a powerful 4 mana card slot to abuse.

[Malchar]

If anyone thinks, it's the right solution to chop ol' cards, so WotC can left their both feet on the gas for power creep without care, disrespects the Format and the Players which made it what it is today.

I think that this line is the key. Anyone who ever liked legacy liked it for what it was at that time that they liked it. Power creep is generally accepted as a bad thing, which is making the format less like what it used to be, and therefore, less enjoyable. Of course, everyone likes new cards, but there's definitely a fundamental shift going on where all of the good new cards are pushing the game in a direction that's different from what it used to be.

In some ways, printing these bonkers creatures is just wizards "catching up" to the bonkers noncreature spells that they have already printed in the past. The best cards ever printed - power 9, dual lands, fetchlands, brainstorm, force of will, 1 mana removal, most combo pieces - are all noncreature. But this was the game that we signed up for. Now we are perpetually getting a new round of busted creatures each year, and it's really starting to tip the scales.

Banning old stuff like brainstorm just expedites the complete takeover of creatures. I mean, you can just play modern if this is what you're looking for.

It's very sobering to realize that they will continue to make stronger and stronger creatures, but the noncreature spells that already exist will never be eclipsed. I mean, I can't see them ever printing something better than brainstorm or force of will, but they probably will print something which replaces tarmogoyf within a couple years.

[nedleeds]

Brainstorm isn't what hurts though. The cards which it finds do.

Those decks would lose consistency without Brainstorm. You are talking about decks with redundant pieces that you absolutely don't want multiples of and for U and a fetch you can fix all of that at instant speed. Put a combo / SnT / deck together and see how many hands you have to put back.

Brainstorm is what hurts innovation in this format because it makes deck building too easy, it makes 18 land mana bases too easy, it makes mulliganing decisions too easy.

[Barook]

The beauty of Legacy is that no matter how stupid things get, there are effective countermeasures, hence the cyclical deck rotations in the meta. People getting greedy with their manabases? Better pack more Wastelands or a Price of Progress. Fast (fragile) combo getting out of hand? Pack more FoWs and and cheap counters, etc.

Modern lacks said effective countermeasures which makes it hard for the format to balance itself out. That's why Wizards gets ban-happy to the point of fucking stupid, like e.g. Wild Nacatl.

What I personally miss in Legacy, though, are cards that really punish you for abusing Brainstorm or into-play cheaters like Show and Tell in the same way Wasteland/PoP punish greedy manabases.

[Zilla]

What I personally miss in Legacy, though, are cards that really punish you for abusing Brainstorm or into-play cheaters like Show and Tell in the same way Wasteland/PoP punish greedy manabases.

Agree strongly with this sentiment. A few playable cards that punish people for playing Brainstorm while being objectively good on their own would go a long way towards quelling Brainstorm's popularity in the format.

[Lejay]

Like Thalia or chalice of the void ?

[Malchar]

I'm always surprised that stax remains a non-threat to the meta despite the abundance of the sol lands, moxen, and good stuff like chalice, trinisphere, and thalia which could really punish so many of the top decks.

[Koby]

I'm always surprised that stax remains a non-threat to the meta despite the abundance of the sol lands, moxen, and good stuff like chalice, trinisphere, and thalia which could really punish so many of the top decks.

I'm not surprised in the slightest, considering they have terrible mulligans and only have a 40% chance to get Chalice in their opening hand, and about 27% chance to get both 2 mana and Chalice.