[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[.dk]

yes the sideboard is where i am having the most difficulty.
I've just been goldfishing the deck in my apt and am hoping to bring this to a Legacy even this weekend and play against some decks for real.

this is the list i will be running:

Creatures:

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
2 Children of Korlis

Spells:

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
2 Reanimate
4 shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Tendrils of Agony

Lands:

1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh flats


my first thought was to go anti hate and expected matchups
I know I'll be facing Goblins, 12 Post, Dredge, BUG Control, Jund, and RUG Delver. all of which i should have a very good game 1 agaisnt.

possible sideboard:

3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Duress
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Pithing Needle
3 Disfigure
1 Dismember


but then i've been toying around with the idea of making a Laboratory Maniac sideboard as alt win condition. it gets used a lot in Vintage in Doomsday Decks.

Doesn't look like there is a lot of Blue in your meta, so Careful Study over discard spells seems good. I would probably run Thoughtseize over Duress in the sideboard, since you can use it as a combo piece as well as disruption when playing against BUG or RUG.

I'm unsure what you're BEB-ing - that card seems a little out of place. Why Disfigure over Deathmark? I see that you're not expecting Knight of the Reliquary, but you can still nab a big Goyf putting pressure on you with Deathmark. Also might consider another Pithing Needle since it looks like it can have good uses in almost all of those matches except RUG.

I'm personally not a huge fan of Lab Maniac in the board as it doesn't really fix any of your problems from Game 1 (unless you're referring to boarding into DD/Maniac - in which case I think there are too many sideboard cards to make it viable).

[catmint]

Played a bit with the man plan and my first conclusions are:
- the explosive starts like T1/2 multiple discard & creatures seem to be frequent enough to make it worth considering
- white decks will leave swords in, so 12 creatures would be minimum.
- it sucks to topdeck illusory angel having to wait for a spell, so its a bit swingy. Maxing out efreet might be better.
- There are decks where you are not sure the man-plan gets there but they still might pack ugly disruption which you then cannot answer. This and the right way to go will only be evaluated by testing I guess.

Still not sure if 3 spots for removal are necessary. SFM - Batterskull can be handled with discard and to make sure confidant can attack the 3 spots are way too little. So having confidant just as a fragile draw engine might not be worth it. So dropping confidant enables Tombstalker which should be easy to support.

I did not play against Jund so far - certainly a deck where you want to go for the man-plan. I suspect they side out liliana since it would enable our combo leaving them cold to Obliterator. They will probably side out decay, liliana and bloodbraid before any burn (since damage matters) making confidant or any creature without shroud and toughness smaller than 2/3 a weaker choice.

Problem I have with obliterator is that
- I want a basic island
- Even without a basic island BBBB without dark ritual does not seem realistic given you want to discard your lands to careful study.

Considering decay is sided out bitterblossom might be an option. Pretty slow but synergies with cabal thereapy and jumping in race situations pretty well. Probably just...slow...

Going all flyers maybe something like:
4 Delver
4 Serendib Efreet
3 Tombstalker
4 flex like: Hypnotic Specter, Bitterblossom, Vendilion Clique, Vampire Nighthawk or funny stuff like Shadowmage InfiltratorTidehollow Strix and of course phyrexian negator if you feel lucky.

I have limited time so hope others with more experience start testing this idea as well.

[Jules]

One thing I would definitely change though is dropping a couple Underground Seas for Scrubland/Tundra.

Tundra or Scrubland for Children of Korlis? Most of the time i already played a land in my "combo-turn" before casting grisel.

[Grave]

@Grave - I'm not really convinced that Pact is where we want to be over Ponder, but let us know how it goes. One thing I would definitely change though is dropping a couple Underground Seas for Scrubland/Tundra.

Hello Richard, I don't mean to change Pact over Ponder, Pact was primary changed for Cabal Therapy and Careful Study over Ponder. And as far as I see goes quite well since Careful opens gates to discard Griselbrand.

Thanks for the hint for the Useas, I was planing change 1 Usea for 1 Scrubland ;)

[ZimAshe]

Doesn't look like there is a lot of Blue in your meta, so Careful Study over discard spells seems good. I would probably run Thoughtseize over Duress in the sideboard, since you can use it as a combo piece as well as disruption when playing against BUG or RUG.

I'm unsure what you're BEB-ing - that card seems a little out of place. Why Disfigure over Deathmark? I see that you're not expecting Knight of the Reliquary, but you can still nab a big Goyf putting pressure on you with Deathmark. Also might consider another Pithing Needle since it looks like it can have good uses in almost all of those matches except RUG.

I'm personally not a huge fan of Lab Maniac in the board as it doesn't really fix any of your problems from Game 1 (unless you're referring to boarding into DD/Maniac - in which case I think there are too many sideboard cards to make it viable).

unfortunately I don't have access to Thoughtseize I would if i did though.
I figured BEB would be a good answer to Goblins and Burn if it shows up. My friend will probably show ups with some brew. he can't help but jam jace and FoW into EVERY deck he builds lol.

I was thinking the same thing about the DD side board. i thought it would be neat but realized that it would take too many slots.
Disfigure was for the turn 1 DRS. i was also thinking about Silence or Abeynce in the board.

[.dk]

unfortunately I don't have access to Thoughtseize I would if i did though.
I figured BEB would be a good answer to Goblins and Burn if it shows up. My friend will probably show ups with some brew. he can't help but jam jace and FoW into EVERY deck he builds lol.

I was thinking the same thing about the DD side board. i thought it would be neat but realized that it would take too many slots.
Disfigure was for the turn 1 DRS. i was also thinking about Silence or Abeynce in the board.

You might actually want to run some other Discard spell then that can act as a combo piece. Raven's Crime comes to mind.

In goblins - the only cards you care about are the grave hate, if they are splashing white for Thalia, or the random Earwig Squad. Don't think BEB is worth it here. Would rather board in bounce.

Burn - sure, if (like Caleb) you want to make sure you don't lose the match. I've had a bit of trouble in the past, but it isn't that bad of a matchup.

Deathmark can also take care of DRS and I think has some more utility otherwise for larger green or white creatures. For instance, Linvala, which is a pretty big issue.

I've tried both Silence and Abeyance too - Silence just seemed worse than Counterspells to me. And while Abeyance's effect is very awesome - it always seemed like adding 1W to your combo turn was a little oppressive. If you're planning on slowing down post board though, it may be an option. Always wanted it to work - just couldn't figure out how, I guess. Hope you can!

[Richard Cheese]

Tundra or Scrubland for Children of Korlis? Most of the time i already played a land in my "combo-turn" before casting grisel.

But sometimes you haven't made a drop yet. There are also situations where you just want to cast Children. Against other storm decks they basically beat Tendrils, or can fog for a turn against aggressive decks. There's also the dreaded Children beatdown.

@ZimAshe - I think Careful Study is probably a reasonable Thoughtseize stand-in. You could also run Funeral Charm, which can self-target, is an instant, and has the added bonus of occasionally being able to double as removal. The problem with Charm and Raven's Crime though is how bad they at actually being discard spells when you need them to, so I'd almost just stick with Careful Study since it digs harder and is a pseudo-shuffle effect after a Brainstorm.

[.dk]

But sometimes you haven't made a drop yet. There are also situations where you just want to cast Children. Against other storm decks they basically beat Tendrils, or can fog for a turn against aggressive decks. There's also the dreaded Children beatdown.

@ZimAshe - I think Careful Study is probably a reasonable Thoughtseize stand-in. You could also run Funeral Charm, which can self-target, is an instant, and has the added bonus of occasionally being able to double as removal. The problem with Charm and Raven's Crime though is how bad they at actually being discard spells when you need them to, so I'd almost just stick with Careful Study since it digs harder and is a pseudo-shuffle effect after a Brainstorm.

I was referring to replacing duress in the board but that may be wrong too. Duress may be just fine. You're right that the other options are pretty crappy as actual disruption so... yeah, duress is prolly fine if that is what you're looking for.

[Jules]

Hi,

i have questions regarding sideboarding.

How do you board g2 / g3 against decks, where you can expect that they play extirpate/surgical?

The Decks im refering to are RUG/Jund/Esperblade....

My sideboard atm:

2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth (i have no third chain)
3 Pithing Needle
1 Duress
2 Deathmark
3 Surgical Extraction
3 ? flex......

i'm thinking of adding 3 Pull from Eternity and board it against the mentioned decks above?

My Mainboard ist more or lesse Calebs list....

[.dk]

You could try Pull - would recommend changing your maindeck land configuration around a bit if you do though, to make sure that you have W available.

4 other options that I see:

You could run Show and Tell instead of reanimation.

You could get a hand with double reanimation and enough mana to cast it in response to Surgical.

You could run counterspells out of your sideboard.

You could run Silence/Chant and cast that before binning Griselbrand.

In general both Surgical and Extirpate are big problems for this deck. Probably the biggest problems, actually. You can at least bounce a Leyline or Rest in Peace and then combo off from there on the same turn. if Surgical resolves on Griselbrand, you're in trouble. That was one of the original reasons for a transformation as there were so many Snapcaster + Surgical decks out there.

[Hammunition]

First things first: the name:
Grislebrand = Grizzlebees = TinFins. If you don't get it, I can't help you.

I'm sure you can give us more than that.

Please?



Also, have you guys noticed the prices on Shallow Graves? The last ebay listing closed at $45 for a playset, and the only set available now is at $100 for the four. That deserves a pat on the back.

Goryo's Vengeance is starting to pick up as well (you can find them for around $3 each, but a few months ago they were $1 to 2), so if anybody that hasn't gotten them, you probably want to get on that soon.

[phazonmutant]

Well, not much of a tournament report. I brewed up a Pull from Eternity + Serum Powder list for the local tournament last night.
4 Serum Powder
3 Pull from Eternity
4 Entomb
3 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtsezie
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Children of Korlis
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland

// Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Silence
2 Massacre
3 Show and Tell
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Unmask

I think the list is sweet, but not better than regular TinFins. Some of the openers are hilarious with Serum Powder, but it's not really doing anything consistently good.
Round 1 - Played against unsleeved commons.deck. T1'd him both games without any Serum Powder shenanigans.
Round 2 (nedleeds) - RW Vial Humans - I got him good g1, but then Canonist and poor draws beat me down g2/3. We both mulled to 4 g3, drew, and mulled to 7 and I kept an unkeepable hand without having seen Serum Powder yet this tournament.
Round 3 - Aggro Loam - He's on the play an t2s Chalice on 0, Chalice on 1. I respond with Entomb and swing for 7, then discard a Griselbrand, but he untaps into Ooze. Filthy. G2 he boards in 13 cards and I have no chance of winning.

Saw Serum Powder once, on turn 4 against aggro loam. Pretty salty about that. Some other directions to take it are to cut U and just play Spoils of the Vault (isn't that just adorable?).


I'm currently testing an actual list that might be good.
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
2 Children of Korlis
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
2 Silence
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Reanimate
2 Ponder
2 Careful Study
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
1 Exhume
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

// Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Pull From Eternity
1 Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Massacre
2 Thougtseize

It's still unrefined - 61 cards maindeck, testing the Ponder / Study split. So far it's been working very well though. Silence is an utter pounding for most decks we're slightly soft to g1 (the permission decks), and Abrupt Decay is a versatile answer to prison pieces as well as CB and RiP. Pull from Eternity finally gives us a reasonable answer to Extirpate effects, which is very valuable (and Exhume maximizes that effect).
The manabase is reasonably stable, not sure how bad wasteland is for it though. Hasn't been a problem so far.
The biggest problem is that I have no idea how to board in different matchups, especially ones that present a variety of hate. More testing will help. So far though, this list seems to have by far the best sideboard. It loses some percent in the manabase, but hopefully gains it in versatile answers.

[alphastryk]

Some other directions to take it are to cut U and just play Spoils of the Vault (isn't that just adorable?).

I have a tentative list for this plan. Warning - this deck is super inconsistent, but very fun:



4 Serum Powder
4 Entomb
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
4 Pull from Eternity
4 Spoils of the Vault

4 Unmask

3 Children of Korlis
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

2 chrome mox
4 lotus petal
4 dark ritual
4 marsh flats
4 bloodstained mire
1 swamp
4 scrubland

I'm currently testing an actual list that might be good.
<...>

Any particular reason for the move to an Exhume / Reanimate split in the main?

[.dk]

I'm sure you can give us more than that.

Please?



Also, have you guys noticed the prices on Shallow Graves? The last ebay listing closed at $45 for a playset, and the only set available now is at $100 for the four. That deserves a pat on the back.

Goryo's Vengeance is starting to pick up as well (you can find them for around $3 each, but a few months ago they were $1 to 2), so if anybody that hasn't gotten them, you probably want to get on that soon.

Check this out: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0696982/
Google "tinfins" and see what comes up. :)

New primer should have a link to the trailer...

Pretty hilarious about the price of Shallow Graves, isn't it? go go reserved list? :/

@phazonmuant - funny report, and hilarious list. Was trying to find some way to fit Pull and Powder into a list, but couldn't do it without cutting too much business. You might be right that cutting blue is the only way - Spoils sound pretty much awesome for that, btw.

The second list you posted is interested - but I'm not sure why the move from 2 Reanimate to 1 + Exhume when you've weakened your manabase to wasteland. The ponder/study split seems reasonable as well as cutting down on Thoughtseize. My current list that I keep meaning to test has the 2/2 split right now as well, just to test out if nothing else. Silence seems odd to me - wouldn't we just be better off running countermagic? We're better at making blue than white.

I may end up bringing the deck to my local this weekend rather than DDFT for a change, so we'll see how it does there.

[phazonmutant]

funny report, and hilarious list. Was trying to find some way to fit Pull and Powder into a list, but couldn't do it without cutting too much business. You might be right that cutting blue is the only way - Spoils sound pretty much awesome for that, btw.

The second list you posted is interested - but I'm not sure why the move from 2 Reanimate to 1 + Exhume when you've weakened your manabase to wasteland. The ponder/study split seems reasonable as well as cutting down on Thoughtseize. My current list that I keep meaning to test has the 2/2 split right now as well, just to test out if nothing else. Silence seems odd to me - wouldn't we just be better off running countermagic? We're better at making blue than white.

Haha thanks. Credit to alphastryk for terrible ideas *ahem* Spoils of the Vault.

Exhume vs. Reanimate - fair point. I just wanted to see how often Pull + Shallow Grave / Exhume would come up. Probably too cute.
I think Silence is better than countermagic. The manabase I posted is about as good at making W as U, and we have Petals and more W cards to pin now. Silence is better for 2 reasons - it forces them to react right then, so you don't have to fully commit, and it stops Surgical shenanigans so they can only interact with you with counterspells. Our own counterspells would be stretched trying to deal with both grave hate and permission.

[.dk]

Haha thanks. Credit to alphastryk for terrible ideas *ahem* Spoils of the Vault.

Exhume vs. Reanimate - fair point. I just wanted to see how often Pull + Shallow Grave / Exhume would come up. Probably too cute.
I think Silence is better than countermagic. The manabase I posted is about as good at making W as U, and we have Petals and more W cards to pin now. Silence is better for 2 reasons - it forces them to react right then, so you don't have to fully commit, and it stops Surgical shenanigans so they can only interact with you with counterspells. Our own counterspells would be stretched trying to deal with both grave hate and permission.

Ah yeah, I guess you can do the Exhume thing and Pull in response, as you said, like we do with Shallow Grave. That seems like a good enough reason, actually. Maybe not too cute - worth testing. :)

You're right that in some matchups that Silence is insane - but a good counterspell suite can also deal with other grave hate (permanents) that come down earlier. Depends on the meta I suppose - Silence trumps stack wars. I definitely like both, there have just been enough times where I've been unimpressed with Silence in this deck that I'm a little turned off. I do like that it gives you something to pin under Chrome Mox as well to cast Children - I did that out of the sideboard back in December quite a bit when I ran Silence/Chant in the sideboard along with Show and Tells. Made the Show and Tell plan into casting Children to still storm out much more viable (or, the Hot Carl plan, as you call it). :)

[ZimAshe]

Re: shallow grave $ increase

glad i jumped on that when i did! holy moly!

[Koby]

Damn you guys. I went and bought Entombs today.

lol @ $2. Good timing! I probably did a good part to help promote this deck. Next time, I'm buying 20 copies

[Grave]

Re: shallow grave $ increase

glad i jumped on that when i did! holy moly!

Phewww, I get my spanish playset (Tumba precaria xD) just in time!

[ZimAshe]

lol @ $2. Good timing! I probably did a good part to help promote this deck. Next time, I'm buying 20 copies

when i bought the 1 copy i needed for my playset off ebay there were tons. i shoulve bought them all then lol!