Horror is good if they cheat in Emrakul or Omniscience with Show and Tell, and can even bounce itself if they try to bluff by putting a land into play. The problem is that it doesn't stop Sneak Attack and Griselbrand from getting their abilities, Hypergenesis overloads aside.
Hi guys.
Still very new to the different types pf this deck - working on a decklist, might go the white splash.
I've got Arbor, VE, S-TE, DRS, Blossom, Witness, Thrun, Thrag, P-Titan so far. It seems okay.
Thing is, I like the acceleration of this deck, but I don't wanna just rely on GSZ either. Have a couple Intent too.
I'm looking at a few creatures, still not sure on good/bad.
Living Wish? I really like it, I've been trying 2, thinking 3, and a small toolbox;
Vexing Shusher, Gaea's Herald & another Witness maybe, but what else?
I'd like a few hate creatures to help a tight spot....Teeg? Harmonic Sliver? Ooze?
I like the flexibility of Acidic Slime, but are there really any lands that this deck fears?
What else should I be looking at?
More importantly I guess;
Can we afford using sideboard space for this, or is it better to fight storm, dredge etc etc.?
I just dont think leyline of the void is necessary. Theres nothing Id take out for leyline against fair decks that KINDA use the GY (esperblade, GBx, etc) so its only for dredge/reanimator and also helps against hermit druid combo and ANT (past in flames). This deck already does really good against dredge, and not bad against reanimtor. I think there are better cards we run against ANT/Druid combo, and the best of those options, I think is mindbreak trap, which also randomly helps against stuff like omniscience, NO-Elves or even sneak and show sometimes (since they often go overmaster/cantrip>petal>S&T/sneak all in one turn). I dont like having to play it, but its better than leyline of the void at what it is needed for. If you have ALOT of dredge and reanimator in your area and just want to never lose them I would support void, but otherwise Id play mindbreak trap.Originally Posted by Siiig
2 of Sancity in a non-white deck doesnt seem good. Again Mindbreak trap I think would be better.
I like the move of cutting reanimate. I love that card, but I usually just use it to turn a B-wish into a creature against an creature deck, and DRS being one of the most played creatures, makes that play a little less doable.
I would still want AT LEAST damnation in the side, but I could justify cutting perish/virtures ruin if there isnt much mav around. I think id still want pyroclasm though. Killing bobs, delvers, and golbins/fish/elves for just 1R is really nice.
I dont think reverent silence is needed, pulse can deal with leylines.
Keep in mind I have 2 abrupt decays in my "flex slot" and 60 cards, but otherwise the basic list. Personally, In the northeast, I would run this:
1 Thoughtseize ---- My most wished for spell, scapeshift is the only other card that comes close. I wouldnt cut this.
3 REB
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Slaughter Games
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent blood
1 Sowing salt/ruination (not sure whats better, havent tested ruination)
1 Innocent Blood
1 Damnation
1 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom pulse
I WANT 2 extipates in there, but I think they are the least needed. They arent that great against dredge and reanimator just makes you discard them. While they obviously are better than most of the other 60 cards in your deck in those matchups, they arent a silver bullet. I really like extirpate but not cause it is GY hate, because its a beast in the miracles matchup and because it is at least decent against any combo deck really. Also, REB is great against those 2 GY decks. It can hit breakthroughs, S&Ts, careful studies, cantrips, etc.
One thing to keep in mind, this actually happened to my last weekend. G2/3 dredge players will probably assume you have some GY hate and SB in antihate, thereby actually slowing their deck. I havent played with dredge in while, but usually the strategy is you take out your "combo" (dread return + fatty, and sometimes 1-4 breakthroughs too) for your anti hate cards. Which is awesome for us! Cause we can kill zombie tokens, narcomobeas and ichorids all day.
Oh really? My bad :/ why does that not work, at what point do you choose what the auras are attached to?
Probably the same time you would name a card with Phyrexian Revoker
Has this changed recently (by recently I mean during the past 18 months)?
As far as I know this should work, they Show and Tell an Emrakul, you Fetters / Control Magic it.
Sry for double post but I wanted to share my updated BUG list. It works out nicely. If I were to play tournaments in the near future I would probably play it. I have looked into ELC's build and other posts and taken a few things from them. I like the idea to go with Primeval into Creeping Tar Pit, but I am a bit less greedy with the mana base.
I do not like to mulligan with Nic Fit so I try to keep the mana as stable as possible. Maybe I could cut 1 Forest though, I am not sure. I have been very happy with 3 Abrupt Decays in BUG. The card is great.
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
//Sideboard
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 2 Damnation
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
Angel of despair kills anything they put in and gives u a beater.
You cannot use Auras or Clones with Show and Tell to kill the card they put into play since there is no target for before it comes into play. Angel of Despair and Oblivion Ring have triggered abilities for when they hit the battlefield, at which point there is a target to blow up.
Source: Tried it in a tournament with Phyrexian Metamorph and got Judge'd.
Claymore is correct. The difference between O ring and an aura is that O ring doesn't target something until the enter the battlefield has triggered. An aura needs a target upon coming into play, which doesn't exist with SnT.
Agreed that Sanctity is a bad idea in a non-white deck.
Mindbreak Trap alone isn't good enough against Spy. Here's why: Pact of Negation, Chancellor of the Annex. This is why I'm favoring Leyline of the Void in combination with Mindbreak Trap and Chalice of the Void. Spy is a DAMNED hard deck to effectively shut down, and I think that Leyline of the Void is necessary somewhere in the equation since they can't Pact it and they can't Daze it. Also, Reanimator IS making a comeback, whether we like it or not.
Cutting Reanimate is probably a mistake. Though, I had a bad experience when I experimented with cutting it -- basically the same thing that happened to Devin when he cut Innocent Blood. I'm pretty sure he's never cutting Blood, and I'm pretty sure I'm never cutting Reanimate.
False.
Think of it this way.
Revoker, Pithing Needle, stuff like that trigger "AS they come into play." This means that Show and Tell resolves. You both hold out the card you're Showing. They Show Griselbee, you Show Revoker. They come into play at the same time. You get to see Griselbrand before you name with Revoker. However, since it's an "As" effect and not a "When" effect, you get to name Griselbrand before they can respond by drawing cards. If Revoker said "When Revoker comes into play," they would be able to respond to the trigger by activating Griselbrand.
This doesn't work with Auras, Clones, Metamorph, and so on. Here's why:
Think about an Aura. Auras target while they're on the stack. Fetters, let's say. You cast Fetters targeting Jace. Upon resolution, it attaches to Jace, and the blue player gets mad. Rector: if you Rector Fetters in, it comes INTO PLAY ALREADY ATTACHED to a permanent of your choice. This gets around Monguise's shroud, for example. However, when you Show and Tell, you and your opponent both Show a permanent. They Show Griselbrand, you Show Fetters. They're coming into play at the same time. Since they're coming in at the same time, Fetters has to go onto a permanent that was previously in play. It cannot attach to the Griselbrand since the demon wasn't in play for the Fetters to attach to. It's all timing. Take Possession fits here too.
Metamorph and the other Clones work the same way. It's timing. Clone and Griselbrand come in at the same time. Like Metamorph, Clone uses an "As" wording, so you'd think it should work. However, Revoker is just naming a card, whereas Clone requires the card to be copied to already be in play.
This all make sense?
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If anyone here will be at GP Charlotte, I'll be in attendance. I'll be wearing a black Minecraft T-shirt with a Creeper on it and black jeans on Saturday, so if you can track me down, feel free to chat. I'll be doing a lot of legacy win-a-boxes, and while I'm planning on playing 12post in most of them (because I think 12post is a fantastic deck for win-a-boxes), it's a safe bet that I'll be doing at least one with Rector and one with Scapewish. Rector will be obvious that it's me, because every basic in it is Guru, I have Korean Explorers, and a bunch of jap foils -- Scapewish will be harder to spot, but hopefully it'll be fully FBB dual'd by the time I'll be playing it, and there'll be a good bit of german foil in it.....including a pair of 7th foil Waldelfen that I just picked up =D
@ Arianrhod: So . . . I'm confused. When do you choose a permanent with Rector into Fetters? What I'm saying isn't that Phyrexian Revoker doesn't work against Griselbrand, I'm saying it wouldn't work if it said "As ~ etb, choose target permanent", because "As" means that Griselbrand hasn't etb itself. In other words: names exist at all times, but bodies don't.
EDIT: Nevermind . . . reading is good tech.
Reading is actually the most tech card in magic.
[edit] Second only to an island [/edit]
Is the hate on sanctity on none-white because the only method you have to cast it is on the open? I feel like for decks where sanctity is relevant it's really the only time you'll have a chance.
Sadly in my board I wasn't cutting thoughtseize, I just don't have one. I could pop it in place with duress, what do you find yourself grabbing it for?
Retired Berserk Stompy player
Current Decks: Scapewish NicFit, Grixis Affinity, Green Zombardment
Pretty much @ Sanctity. Every time you think that that's the case, the game will throw you some corner case that'll prove you wrong. It's one of the reason why I disliked Omniscience in Rector. Sanctity is a very good, very strong card. But it doesn't win you the game by itself. It can help buy you time -- but that's all it can do. You still need to do other things with that time. It's like Pithing Needle. It doesn't aggressively work towards ending the game in-itself. That's why I think that other options are better. Something like Mindbreak Trap, for example, is far more damning to such a deck. Think about Belcher. If you're vs Belcher, and you have Leyline in your opener, and they go for Belcher, then that's great. Until they Nature's Claim it...or Burning Wish for a Hull Breach or a Reverent Silence or something. Leyline buys you time, but they still have a Belcher sitting in play that you need to worry about. Additionally, if they went for Empty the Warrens, you're just dead. Your Leyline does nothing. Now, consider if you had Mindbreak Trap instead. It also buys you time -- they can certainly dig into a new way to go off if you give them too much time. But they'll be going off again without a Belcher in play. They won't have been able to make 14 goblins on t1, and all of the resources that they used to get to that point will have been spent. It's just more damaging to them -- it actively WINS you the game as opposed to just buying time.
Thoughtseize is something you should work on getting at some point -- just one copy is fine. Duress is your go-to if you don't have a Thoughtseize, but you will lose some games to corner-cases where the Thoughtseize would be better....usually vs Show and Tell based combo. The most common use for BW->Thoughtseize is if they've just tutored for something that they can't cast, or like a Stoneforge Mystic. Those are the most common. But sometimes, it's just nice to have an additional 4x discard spells in your deck....even if they cost RRB instead of just B.
@Leyline of the Void:
I havent tested the hermit druid/spy matchup much. I know MBT isn't actually that great against them, they will just duress/therapy it away if they suspect you have it. But leyline g2/3 has its weaknesses too. They can board in the belcher win, natures claim it, etc. If they have chancellor of the annex or negation pact, their hand will be a card slower, giving us a chance to put up a fight. Maybe leyline is needed, but I still think Id rather have extipate in that slot for its broader applications and accept my "not-running-FoW tax" but I'll have to wait and see.
@Reanimate:
I dont want to cut it, but I use it maybe 1 in 25 games and its usually just to get a dead huntmaster/thrag back. I think Id rather just have more slots of real SB slots.
@Auras off S&T:
Thanks for the clarification.
@Thoughtseize:
Its awesome, use duress at least for now. But ya you will wish you had thoughtseize in the S&T match. But having a way to turn BW into discard is essential. Often you have BW and shift in hand, and need to win through countermagic that turn. It can get stoneforge searches, or wished targets in the omniscience match. I have to say though its biggest use probably comes in during the combo matchup. It just gives you 4 more cards that interact with combo buy turn 3.
I ran a BUG list at a small event last night and liked having 1 Tar Pit, especially against my Goblins opponent, as he could generate quite a few chump blockers with all the Mountains I gave him.
(I also got to live the dream, against Dredge, and play T1 Explorer, T2 Tower->Thragtusk, T3 Land, Brainstorm, Explorer->Primeval Titan and pass with 9 lands in play T3.)
I left semi-satisified with my deck and 2 questions I'm kicking around for (non-"combo") BUG lists:
1. How do y'all like Strix? I ran 2, and they always seem like a super-wall in theory, especially against decks like RUG with few threats, but UB is awkward to play early if you're avoiding Wasteland and want G. Maybe I'm over-fetching basics to ramp "safely," but I have found that if I bin an explorer I have enough mana to want to play bigger things than a 1/1, and if I don't have explorer then I don't have enough fetches or the right ones to play it until turn 3-4, anyway.
2. On disruption: I saw Tao running 6 discard maindeck + 4 in the board, with no counters. That seems risky right now, when discard is so prevalent that Leyline of Sanctity is showing up in a lot of combo boards. I ran into a Cheerios deck last night and discard wasn't worth much. Since they play like a 1-card combo deck (with a pronounced ability to stall), any top-decked Glimpse wins the game, and no amount of Therapy for Orinthopter can clear out their hand enough to stop that. I didn't have Memoricide, and probably will, but Leyline still turns that off. (I was running 4 Therapy, 2 Thoughtseize maindeck; 3 Negate, 2 Mindbreak Trap in the board.)
Don't you want some counters somewhere in the 75?
@SnT/Fetters/Emrakul: oops, learned something new there, always thought it worked
1. I had played them and slowly reduced their numbers until 0 were left. I haven't though about why I wasn't perfectly satisfied but your argument sounds pretty convincing. I think that is it.
2.
My reasoning is that the Combo matchup is bad enough that I can't play around anything. My plan is to mulligan into a T1 Discard spell (maybe two or one and a Surgical) and cross my fingers. I don't think there is much else that you can to against Combo. They have a 40% chance of having Leyline in their opening hand, and if they do so they win, I am willing to live with that. Negate is solid, but imo a bit too slow. I want T1 disruption.
Mindbreak Trap does that but currently there are two Combo decks (Sneak and Tell, Reanimator) in the DtB forum against which it is completely dead. So if I spend two of my SB slots to fight Combo they shouldn't be dead vs the two most played Combo decks, right? Same thing with Angel of Despair which is great against Show and Tell decks but dead against Reanimator, Elves or Storm Combo.
There are not nearly enough SB slots to cover all fronts and I also do not want to spend 15 slots to fight Combo. I want some slots to keep my edge against fair decks too. Decay is amazing and having one is often the difference in beating Delver or not. Damnations are great against all fair aggressive decks (Tribal, Jund, BUG Aggro, RUG, Maverick) and Wurmcoil is insane against Jund and midrange BUG.
@Tao:
You're BUG list is actually very similar to mine as far as the maindeck is concerned. I'm still very happy with Negate in the board however.
On another note, just to let you all know, I've finally updated my signature with my current lists like the rest of you cool kids! So enjoy!
So finally, gonna play this baby this weekend at a local event:
3 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Acidic Slime
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Memoricide
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
I'm still torn on whether or not I should be playing DRS or not. I haven't tested it much (used to be 2 Innocent Blood) but as I tested it earlier today with a couple of blue decks it gives me the ability to not rely on Veteran Explorer as much (therefore not ramping my opponent as well) against UWx/URx control as well as SnT (buying a turn helps!). Helps VS the Reanimator matchup as well.
If I were to rid of the 2 DRS, most probably will be +1 Innocent Blood, +1 Thragtusk. Feels like the 2nd Thragtusk is not as needed, but our meta has a ton of Burn and that would certainly help. I am also trying to consider slipping in the 3rd Abrupt Decay somewhere in the main, maybe instead of the Innocent Blood or 2nd DRS.
The biggest problem for me, as a noob to this deck, is to decide which hands to mull. I usually mull loosely (as I used to play Dredge, and with that deck its extremely easy to just shuffle it up and draw less), but with this deck I can't seem to decide which hands are keep-able sometimes, and it usually ends with me losing the game because of that.
As for the SB, if I were to include the 3rd Abrupt Decay in the MD I'd certainly cut the 1 in the SB. Golgari Charm is a great utility spell, especially against Elves. If I were to cut that I'd probably add a 3rd Engineered Plague or the 4th P. Deed. I'm quite low on surgical effects, but that's because I don't own the others. If I had Extirpates I'd probably swap them in with the Memoricide. 3 is max though.
Duress is there because I will NOT throw cash on those Thoughtseizes. I know its good, but Duress will do for now.
I'm going to need more ways to deal with SnT though, I'm thinking more Diabolic Edicts for now, as well as a one-off Obstinate Baloth to improve the Jund matchups somewhat. Or maybe a Wurmcoil Engine or 2?
He had a double extraction and something else that didn't do anything. His turn before the cascade he activated Lili's plus one and pitched one of the extractions. A previous activation had a hypergenesis in the GY. I was about ready to yell at my computer when he didn't respond to the cascade trigger there.
I would play another abrupt decay main. It's just so good vs everything. With all that burn in your meta you're gonna pray you have one in your hand when they cast sulfuric vortex before you get thragtusk. Vs Jund I think you just want an explorer to die. Once you cast grave titan I don't see how they can win. I've been liking deathrites more and more recently only due to the fact that show and tell is running rampant. I always gsz for a deathrite shaman for ramp as I don't want to give them lands. I'm playing 3 natural order maindeck so I'm running 3. Reanimator seems to be getting more popular atm so it's great vs that also.
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