Originally Posted by Vandalize
I disagree here, sometimes against some of the faster combo decks or even reanimator(which is more popular after tinfins did well), using purge can slow them down immensely and allow you to win on your own terms. I know myself when I started playing this deck I always wanted the Combo win, to pop out a bunch of tokens, and win with FKZ or Flayer. Through playing the deck more and more, I am realizing that(I know vets of the deck know this) grinding games works just as well. Using Therapies and Purges, while on a slow dredge plan can many times just grind out a game. I know a few weeks ago I played against MUD, and they dropped turn 1 Trinisphere, and we both durdled around, long story short, I ended up recurring Ichorids and pass turning with them to just generate a ridiculous amount of Tokens and out aggro them, winning through two active Wurmcoil Engine and them at 30 Life with several blockers up. While I understand the desire to go nuts and just tap out for everything sometimes that is not the right call to make.
Belcher
Delver
Dredge
When your heart won't beat, your eyes go black
There's a light in the tunnel and you can't turn back
Your friends can't save you, your family's gone
You're waiting on your judgment at the foot of the throne
Will you beg for some mercy? Will you cop some pleas?
Will you stand on your own or get down on your knees?
Will your angels release you from where demons dwell?
Will you make it into Heaven or go right back to Hell?
Only time will tell
By comboing out I don't mean Dread Return into some finisher. Combo out means playing a Draw spell after dumping a dredger in the yard. This usually happens turns 1 and 2, and is mostly when we tap out. Your best bet against reanimator is trying to get as many cards in the graveyard before their turn 2 (critical turn) and overwhelm them with Therapies. If you don't develop in the early game against such a fast deck, he'll just go for Exhume or counter your Coffin Purge/Journey.
Slow dredging and tight playing is another story. Against MUD and Control decks in general, we do have time to setup, DDD, and things like that. But these are not matchups where Coffin Purge/Journey is relevant, anyways. You can usually grind out Surgical Extraction if you lead them to misfire it. Or even add more threats (Ashen Ghoul), which get the job done.
Dredge's sideboard is just reacting against something that is really dangerous (e.g Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void). Against other decks, we don't need much hate because we're usually the beatdown deck (except Reanimator and T.E.S.). There are several matchups where I just don't board game 2, just to keep my deck as consistent as it can be, and sideboard correctly in game 3 against the given hate.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Hi Vandalize!
I like your list very much, but I would like to ask you something about it.
How do you feel with DRs + targets in a field of deathrite shamans? How often do you get your target removed by shaman? Anyway we can just use DR as a sac outlet and to reanimate a fatty troll.
How do you feel with "only" 3 breakthroughs and 3 Pimps? Do you miss the fullset? Is 3 and 3 a sufficient number for them?
Is the 13th land really required?
When do you board in the single ray of revelation? Vs rest in peace?
Thanks a lot!
"You must believe you are the best, and then make sure you are" Bill Shankly
This is not my latest list, my sideboard has changed a bit. I'll post it here.
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Griselbrand
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Woodfall Primus
I don't really miss my 4th Breakthrough. It enables a lot of explosive options, but it's usually the first card to be sideboarded out in a lot of matchups. 3 Putrid Imp is fine, as well, as we have a lot of discard enables maindeck. Griselbrand is the best target avaliable for Dread Return, and I win 95% of times I could return him.
As for Deathrite Shaman, they will usually have a hard time deciding what to take. If they can't stop you from chaindredging with a Draw spell, they'll have 1 possible activation, that won't really harm us. If they take Griselbrand, we still have a lot of zombies for them to deal with. If this match goes to the late game, you'll lose, of course. But here I'm talking about turn 2 or 3.
If they have Deathrite Shaman plus another kind of hate, things start to get difficult. But that should be post-board, when you bring your Firestorms. And makes things a little easier.
I usually board nothing against Jund in game 2, and if they bring Leylines or Tormod's Crypt, I usually do it like this: -3 Breakthrough, -1 Griselbrand +4 Firestorm. Jund usually have a hard time against us, because their Discard is really ineffective (unless it's a turn 1 Thoughtseize), and they don't have Swords to Plowshares, to exile our stuff.
As for other Deathrite Shaman decks (like BUG), I usually board the firestorms in game 2: -3 Breakthrough, -1 Griselbrand, +4 Firestorm. They can counter Breakthrough easily, and LED usually plays arround Daze. If you expect a lot of hate, you can go -4 Lion's Eye Diamond +4 Firestorm, or -4 Lion's Eye Diamond +2 Tarnished Citadel +1 Elesh Norn +1 Iona.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
So I made the mistake of watching Dredge videos on youtube. Some of the players of this deck are so bad it makes me want to tear my hair out... People who don't maintain GY order, or sacrifice Ichorid to Cabal Therapy when they have Narcomoeba they can sacrifice, and those are some of the more simple stupidities I have seen.
Dredge
When your heart won't beat, your eyes go black
There's a light in the tunnel and you can't turn back
Your friends can't save you, your family's gone
You're waiting on your judgment at the foot of the throne
Will you beg for some mercy? Will you cop some pleas?
Will you stand on your own or get down on your knees?
Will your angels release you from where demons dwell?
Will you make it into Heaven or go right back to Hell?
Only time will tell
It's not always wrong to sac Ichorid for Therapy. Haven't you ever had to block flyers?
I went 5-0 today on my way to 1st playing quadlazer (-1 Thug, +1 Darkblast) with this sideboard:
4 Nature's Claim
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Dread Return
1 Iona
1 Elesh Norn
3 Ashen Ghoul
My rounds were UW Miracles, Burn, Deathrite Ale, Affinity, and Elves. I'm doing this from memory, but I'll try to highlight anything important. There were 17 people that showed up for this tournament.
Rd 1 - UW Miracles
I get paired against one of my friends round one and we know what each other play. I also know his hate is RiP, so I could board with 100% confidence. Game one, I keep a hand with all land and dredgers, but I have the luxury of knowing that I have all the time in the world. I just DDD until I overwhelm him. He goes for Enreat to stem the bleeding, but can only make two Angels. I accumulate zombies while smashing into his angels for a turn, then win on the following one.
SB: +4 Nature's Claim, -1 Darkblast, -1 PImp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 LED
Game two, he's on the play and drops a SDT. I start with Mine and PImp. Then he drops the RiP, but I have Claim in hand. I blow it up on my main phase, discard to my Pimp and cast Looting. I slow dredge for a couple turns and chip away at his life. He drops a Snapcaster for an ambush block hitting my Bridges, but I've made too many zombies at that point. I take it down a couple turns later with Ichorid.
Rd 2 - Burn
Before game one, I see he's playing sleeves with a giant red mana symbol on them. I put him on Goblins or Burn immediately. My suspicions are validated when he goes first turn "Chain Lightning you". Unfortunately for him, I draw the nuts. First turn LED, Breakthrough, and GGT with a land. I flashback my first Therapy on Lightning Bolt and hit three copies. It was pretty brutal.
SB: +2 Dread Return, +1 Iona, -1 Ichorid, -1 Darkblast, -1 PImp
Game two, he goes first turn Tormod's Crypt and Lava Spike. I still haven't seen any creatures from his deck, which is why I boarded out the Darkblast. I cast Study and dump an Ichorid and dredger in the yard. I find out next turn that he is playing an unconventional burn with Keldon Marauders among other interesting choices. He starts to apply pressure while I slow dredge, attempting to force him into using the Crypt. That eventually happens with an Ichorid trigger on the stack, and I have another Study in my hand that I've been saving all game. Unfortunately, I don't hit any Therapies and I die to Spark Elemental + Reckless Abandon. That's quite a bit of damage I didn't see coming.
SB: +1 Grudge, -1 Study
Game three, we both keep our seven and I play Study first turn, dumping two dredgers. He plays Crypt again and a burn spell. I have Breakthrough to explode on turn two, but I can't go for it yet. I slow dredge and take a lot of damage in the process. He uses the Crypt once I flip the Grudge. He also removed one of my Dread Returns incidentally. I fall down to three life and finally can use my Breakthrough, which I do. I flip over the Iona, but the last Dread Return is in my final 10 or less cards. I have to cross my fingers, pass the turn, and hope he doesn't topdeck a burn spell. He draws.... land. I Dredge 6, find the DR, and turn his deck completely off. Phew.
Rd 3 - Deathrite Ale
I saw this guy playing before the tournament started and I knew he had Deathrite Shaman. What he didn't realize is that DRS is terrible against any quick start from me. Game one, we both keep our seven and he goes first. His first turn is land, go. I'm thinking "hmmm, you have at least six discard and four DRS, but no first turn play? Why did you keep? You know I'm on Dredge." I play solitaire for the first game. First turn, I cast Looting. He plays Bitterblossom. Second turn, I activate Coliseum and leave him with two Bob and a Liliana. I only hit one Therapy, which took out StP blind while he was tapped out. His really powerful cards in hand are completely irrelevant to the matchup and I win with zombie and Ichorid beats.
SB: Nothing
Game two, I keep the nuts. I can remember this hand exactly: City, City, LED, PImp, PImp, Breakthrough, GGT. He casts Inquisition first turn and takes the Breakthrough. That's when I decide to prove to him I'm really good at Magic and top deck the second Breakthrough. It happens. I chain dredge four times, flashback a Looting, dredge a couple more times, strip his hand, and he scoops. Sorry bro. You're a nice guy though.
Rd 4 - Affinity
At this point, there are three of us with 3-0 records. One of them had a bye, so I get a little frustrated when I'm the one who gets paired down because I heard some guys saying this was the last round. Oh well, I can't change it. Game one, the only important thing that happens is I find out he's playing affinity. He tries to be hyper aggressive, as Affinity has to, but I flip some Narcos to block his Ornithopter wielding a Plating each turn, netting zombies in the process. I bring back Ichorids only to let them die for more tokens until I can build a lethal alpha strike. I swing for 28 damage once it happens.
SB: +1 Grudge, -1 Breakthrough
Game two, he opens with land, Relic, Ornithopter, and Memnite. I cast PImp and pass back. He drops a Plating, Mox Opal, equips and swings for a lot. This was a pretty good draw from him. Seeing I'm under duress, I decide I have to cast some draw spells to force that Relic and hope for some amazing dredges afterwards. I use my Looting to get some Ichorids and Bridges in the yard, but no Narco to block. I fall under five life and he still hasn't activated the Relic. I can't win so I pack it up before he sees the Grudge.
SB: Nothing
Game three, I start with a good hand: Breakthough, Looting, Stinkweed, GGT, Therapy and two lands. He keeps his seven. I start with Therapy naming Relic. It hits two copies, and I take a sigh of relief. He takes his turn and draws a Crypt. Not the end of the world, but not what I wanted to see. At that point, he admits that he brought in three hate cards and saw them all. He also plays an Ornithopter and Signal Pest before passing back. I draw a Study and cast the Looting in my hand, finding another dredger and LED. I discard a couple dredgers and pass back. On his turn, he casts Ethersworn Canonist so I can't Therapy his hand apart once I deal with the Crypt. I dredge and cast the Study I drew last turn. It finds normal graveyard goodies, but not any Narcomoebas, which I'm actually happy about since he has a Crypt. He plays a Plating on his turn and swings in for seven. On my turn, I bring back an Ichorid, flip over the Grudge, and swing in for three. I tank for a minute and decide to use my Grudge now since Ichorid is in play, rather than the gy. In response, he activates the Crypt and I'm ready for my next turn to save me. I'm still holding the Breakthrough from the beginning of the game, as well as an LED and several dredgers. He plays another creature and attacks me really low. I think I'm at four life now, if my memory is correct. I go for LED (thankfully that's an artifact or Canonist would've won him the game) and cast Breakthrough, cracking the LED in response. I dredge 23 cards deep and hit all four Narcos and two more Ichorids. I can't flashback Looting though, but that's okay. It would have only been icing on the cake. Now I can block his attacks and net four zombies each time, plus gain 12 on mine. I bring back the three Ichorids and let them die for zombies. If I attacked, he could block one, I'd lose my Bridges and I wouldn't have enough for a lethal alpha strike. My plan works and I win next turn when I attack for 30ish damage. Once again, phew.
There are two of us with 4-0 records now and I'm elated when I hear there's another round, because the other deck is Elves. Zombies eat elves for breakfast and don't ask to be excused from the table.
Rd 5 - Elves
Game one, I draw the nuts for the third time. LED + GGT + Breakthrough = GG before it started. I hit three Therapy and leave him with a Glimpse and lands but no creatures. He scoops on his third turn.
SB: +2 Dread Return, +1 Elesh Norn, -1 Ichorid, -1 PImp, -1 Study
Game two, he starts with a mana elf and passes. I have Breakthrough, Stinkweed, GGT Looting with one land and two blanks. I start with Looting drawing LED and blank. Play the LED and pass. He needs to combo this turn or I have a feeling I'm going to Therapy him out of the game. He plays a Priest and passes back. I dredge and cast Breakthrough, but he responds with Surgical on my Looting when he could have hit Therapy. Oops. Breakthrough resolves. I hit two Narco and two Bridges, plus the DR and Elesh Norn. I sac the first Narco to Therapy him naming Glimpse, then I bring Elesh Norn. That's GG.
I probably can't play Dredge next week as everyone will be ready, but it was a good day. I had some nail biters, but managed to get there.
The Quad Cities: twice as nice as the Twin Cities.
I should amend my post, they were playing against burn. Or another player who did the same thing against elves. Or the player who didn't cabal therapy the cranial plating out of the affinity players hand etc. I kind of wish I had either a camera that didn't suck or a good screen capture program. I am by no means an expert but god some people who 'play' this deck just have no idea... lol.
Dredge
When your heart won't beat, your eyes go black
There's a light in the tunnel and you can't turn back
Your friends can't save you, your family's gone
You're waiting on your judgment at the foot of the throne
Will you beg for some mercy? Will you cop some pleas?
Will you stand on your own or get down on your knees?
Will your angels release you from where demons dwell?
Will you make it into Heaven or go right back to Hell?
Only time will tell
Hi everyone! I want to share my take on Dredge. I'm kinda new in the forum, but not in the format but i think that constructed criticism is the best way to improve so here they are, my 75s:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgrai Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
SIDEBOARD
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Angel of Despair
3 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Memory's Journey
3 Nether Shadow
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Unmask
Some cards may seem awful in the sideboard, specifically Memory's Journey and Unmask. The first one is against Reanimator because i really dont know how to succesfully approach this matchup games 2 and 3. The other one is Unmask. I included it originally because i played Street Wraith over Careful Study because of the high DRS decks in my metagame, i ended up cutting the Wraiths, but Unmask keeps in. Why is that? Because i like to answer to threats before they hit the battlefield, i think that the better way to deal a Rest in Peace is throwing it to the graveyard; this forces me to mull agressively g2 and g3, but even mullin' to 5 to keep a hand with unmask i can pull wins far too easy without having to worry of the hate.
I expect your opinions, best regards, tw0as .
Hi! I would like to ask you something about that game, because I think that Miracles is one of the thoughest match ups for me. How do you feel boarding 4 claims with only 8 lands that can cast them? I saw that you didn't board any land. Do you think that keeping in the LEDs and breakthroughs would help to have a better game due to a probably faster start?
@all: from my tests I found out that Dredge can be really well positioned in the meta as far as you can open fast hands. Now that the counters are heavily reduced there are a lot of times that you can start without any answer from the opponent. But if you don't open a fast hand, you'll lose pretty much always! Decks with DRShaman can grind you out very easily if you don't start as fast as you can, and also fast aggro decks can race you.. It seems incredible, but I lost a G1 vs Goblins because i had 2 LED in play, but I wasn't able to find looting to go for the all-in, I had 2 ichorids and 2 bridges.. I lost to a Sharpshooter killing my Narcomoebas and himself exiling my bridges, and some goblins put up some race, and that race was better than the one of my ichorids. I really hated this game, so my program now is to mulligan very very aggressive into faster hands, even at 5 or 4.
"You must believe you are the best, and then make sure you are" Bill Shankly
It's the same odds as you playing Looting or PImp in the first game. I only bring in the lands if I'm playing against Wasteland. Basically, I wanted one of two hands: a fast start with LED or a hand that can both dredge and cast Claim.
The Quad Cities: twice as nice as the Twin Cities.
What about Pithing Needle to combat DRS g2? It could be also good in fighting other cards, like Scavenging Ooze et similia.. Sadly I can't find space for it in my board, and I think Firestorm is simply better...
"You must believe you are the best, and then make sure you are" Bill Shankly
Did you see the Japanese Nationals thing? That was hard to watch.
Also, I'm back, Ladies! Yay for the annoying german!
I sold all my legacy card pool so I am not really actively dredging anymore but once in a while I think I will borrow my friend's japo-foiled out Dredge pool.Just to make some lives miserable...I miss my poor dredge deck and all my trusted therapies, I even shed a tear when I sold it but it couldn't be helped :/
Meh maybe one day once again...
Sooooo how are things going in this Deathrite Meta? I would imagine quite ok, but I saw no really big results the last month or so.
The meta is kinda similar to when I played 4 Firestorm maindeck and it was a fun time :D
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
I think Pithing Needle is a great fill for that slot post-board. No one is bringing in artifact hate against you and shutting off their activated hate for the rest of the game seems good. Also, Needle is more diverse and less situational in that respect.
Thanks Hollywood for your support!
So, definitely I'll give Pithing Needle a chance. But I wonder how can I make room for it in my board, which is:
4 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
3 Tarnished Citadel
2 Ashen Ghoul
2 Memory's Journey
I'll try doing -2 Ghoul, -2 Journey, +4 Pithing Needle.
Journey was really good in the Miracle match-up, but Needle can do the same work naming Top, in order to protect me from a Terminus during my own turn. Maybe I'll suffer Surgical effects, that are quite played in Jund and BUG as a 2 of in the board, but shutting completely down DRS is definitely worth it.
I'll try this configuration, as far as I don't want to play without Firestorms, they help a lot in a bunch of different match ups I think
"You must believe you are the best, and then make sure you are" Bill Shankly
Watching dredge on camera at star city games hurts. The opponent is playing some sort of U/W deck with a sensei's diving top in play so what move should you make next?
Cabal therapy him and don't name the rest in peace he has in hand.
Yeah, that was pretty ugly. It may have been the pressure, and he blanked on what to name. I know that guy (I apologize for forgetting his name) has had success in the past, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt this time. Although, I don't think his list was close to optimal. Hopefully he feels the same way after he was forced to Dredge 2.
Actually, I just remembered the commentators saying how the two playing knew each other. Yeah, there's no excuse for not naming RiP.
The Quad Cities: twice as nice as the Twin Cities.
One bad Dredge player on camera followed up by another one wearing a fedora. A really, really tough weekend for Dredge players everywhere this weekend.
Just a remainder, while Pithing Needle is a versatile answer to most things, Jund and BUG have Abrupt Decay, they'll eventually destroy the needle
And you'll eventually win before they're able to do so.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
So 4 Top 8 SCG finishes and 7 top 16 finishes in total makes you a bad dredge player (Not including other Top 8s and 16s without drege)? :/
@igri, LT. I was there live. The rest and Peace was found after a top activation. When Jason Therapy'd Jack he did in fact Call RIP. He missed obviously and Jack drew it off the top and played it...
Of course I can be completely high and rewatch the stream to make sure that was the case. This was game 1. I didn't stick around for the rest of it. lol
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