I keep getting boned by surgical extraction games 2-3. I tried and save crop rot game three to bog myself once and that was stupid and obviously didn't work out. Now that my team has noticed that waste+surgical=win I've begun siding my own surgicals and it seems to be working out. I love being able to see my opponents hand, it makes everything else easy. The extra grave hate is nice too. Any suggestions that don't involve cannibalizing SB space? Also loam/crucible?
Team Awesome: Busting Toilets since 2009
Meth!
You can counter Surgical Extraction :) You're running a crap-load of counters in the SB right?Originally Posted by That nice guy
And yes, running your own Surgical Extraction works too. It's not really a waste of SB space because Surgical Extraction is still relevant in the Combo matchup (specifically by removing key pieces of their combo once they hit the 'yard).
If the whole Wasteland + Surgical Extraction combo becomes too prevalent, then it might be good to start running Pithing Needles main. It sees a lot of use even against non-wasteland decks (off the top of my head, you can use it to turn off Liliana of the Veil, Sneak Attack, Goblin Charbelcher, Recurring Nightmare, Cranial Plating, Kuldotha Forgemaster, and many more). It doesn't synergize well with Oblivion Stone, but planning ahead should take care of that problem.
It looks like a solid build. I think that if Maverick is truly a bad match-up in this case, see if Cursed Totem makes a difference.
Loam and Crucible won't help save you from Wasteland+Surgical Extraction if they come down at the same time, and Loam could actually open up other things being extracted as well. I'm not entirely sure what do when Cloudpost gets extracted though because my playgroup hasn't thankfully caught onto that yet (one guy did; I made the game a living hell by playing Plan B, a.ka. I'm going to gain a ton of life off Glimmerpost and get a Titan into the fray before things get even worse).
How'd your testing go with this new build? I'm incredibly curious as to how you will address the whole Sneak-Show menace...
The result ended up being logical. rather than spending time maximizing hand with brainstorm, just windmill pithing needles.
// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Island (2)
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [MR] Oblivion Stone
4 [GP] Repeal
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 1 [MR] Oblivion Stone
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
Funny, it's very similar to the main deck list we were testing... Main difference between your list and ours is:
-2 Trinket Mage
-1 Expedition Map
-1 Oblivion Stone
+4 Brainstorm
The reason we left Brainstorm in the main was because our local meta is still full of discard strategies, so we felt we needed it
Although your list looks very interesting. I will have to try and see how the Brainstorm-less config works out in a discard-moderate environment
Looks lika a very intresting list. I feel too at this time that needle is a high value card. I'm not sure I wouldn't cut barinstorms though, but can't say for sure untill I test the list myself.
Another card I have recently discovered is Cyclonic Rift. I have changed my Repeals to Rifts completly. It's good earlygame, cause it always bounces forand lategame/midgame when you bounce the entire opposing team. I know it only target opponents permanents but in my testings I usualy have the feeling of a Time Walk when i cast with overload. The only downside is that you don't get the extra card that Repeal gives you. How do you feel about it?
Take into consideration I play All is Dust over Oblivion Stone at the moment. It feels like I'm always too slow with Stone and it's wounrable against alot more. It may be wrong I don't know. Thay have started playing Death n' Taxes in my local meta. Phyrexian Revokers are pain in the ass.
Played this yesterday on the local tourney - I had a few games with the deck around 6 months ago on Cockatrice but other than that essentially zero experience with it as I haven't played Magic in over a month. Finished T16 @5-2 so I guess I got a bit lucky.
R1, Mirror (SBGpinas) 1-2: Did a lot of things wrong but to be honest I didn't know how to play against the mirror lol.
R2, UR Delver 2-0 (blindspotxxx?): Glimmerpost coupled with him not finding PoP save my ass in G1. G2 I was able to get Glacial Chasm into play in response to his PoP and won with 1 life remaining.
R3, Vengevine Zombie Jund 2-0: Both games I was able to clear his horde (Oblivion Stone, All is Dust) and then drop an Eldrazi for the win.
R4, 4c Waterfalls 0-2: G1 I got stuck with 2 lands even with Top in play. G2 I was dumb and Gilded Drake feat. FoW (to stop my Crop Rotation) annihilated me.
R5, Manaless Dredge 2-0: Both games I see a Crop Rotation in my opening hand.
R6, Omnitell 1-2: G1 lasted only 1 minute. Postboard I put in 10 cards (Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap, Spine of Ish Sah, Oblivion Stone) and let me eke out a win.
R7, Esperblade 2-0: It's probably impossible to lose this matchup unless your draws get horribly screwed.
Fun deck to play.
I feel like Repeal is too good to cut. Bouncing a flipped Delver for U and drawing a card is absurd, and Rift is both too slow to accomplish this before you've gotten walloped, -and- it's squarely in the firing range for Spell Snare. Repeal also has nice tricks with Top, so it's never actually dead.Looks lika a very intresting list. I feel too at this time that needle is a high value card. I'm not sure I wouldn't cut barinstorms though, but can't say for sure untill I test the list myself.
Another card I have recently discovered is Cyclonic Rift. I have changed my Repeals to Rifts completly. It's good earlygame, cause it always bounces for
Take into consideration I play All is Dust over Oblivion Stone at the moment. It feels like I'm always too slow with Stone and it's wounrable against alot more. It may be wrong I don't know. Thay have started playing Death n' Taxes in my local meta. Phyrexian Revokers are pain in the ass.
I run a 1/1 + 1/1 split of All is Dust and O-Stone, splitting them maindeck with one additional copy of each in the sideboard. If you think Revokers are bad, you haven't had someone drop Stony Silence on your ass. Now THAT is a bitch. I'm still not sure how much I like O-Stone at all, honestly. It's too easily dicked with, and it costs 1 more than All is Dust (because you rarely want to just run it out there without the mana to activate it). I know Jeremiah is in hog heaven with it, but I dunno. Maybe I'm not using it right, but it just seems derpy -- it seems like its only advantage over Dust is that it can kill artifacts too.
Another advantage of Oblivion Stone is that it has some use in the Show and Tell matchup. When they cast Show and Tell, you can drop O-Stone and wipe their board afterward...
Another is that you get to play it early, and basically hold your opponent hostage. Did this plenty of times during playtesting, even in the face of removal... you'd be surprised how often you get to play it early and not be removed on the spot.
Admittedly, it was also the first time I played the mirror yesterday haha!Played this yesterday on the local tourney - I had a few games with the deck around 6 months ago on Cockatrice but other than that essentially zero experience with it as I haven't played Magic in over a month. Finished T16 @5-2 so I guess I got a bit lucky.
R1, Mirror (SBGpinas) 1-2: Did a lot of things wrong but to be honest I didn't know how to play against the mirror lol.
R2, UR Delver 2-0 (blindspotxxx?): Glimmerpost coupled with him not finding PoP save my ass in G1. G2 I was able to get Glacial Chasm into play in response to his PoP and won with 1 life remaining.
R3, Vengevine Zombie Jund 2-0: Both games I was able to clear his horde (Oblivion Stone, All is Dust) and then drop an Eldrazi for the win.
R4, 4c Waterfalls 0-2: G1 I got stuck with 2 lands even with Top in play. G2 I was dumb and Gilded Drake feat. FoW (to stop my Crop Rotation) annihilated me.
R5, Manaless Dredge 2-0: Both games I see a Crop Rotation in my opening hand.
R6, Omnitell 1-2: G1 lasted only 1 minute. Postboard I put in 10 cards (Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap, Spine of Ish Sah, Oblivion Stone) and let me eke out a win.
R7, Esperblade 2-0: It's probably impossible to lose this matchup unless your draws get horribly screwed.
Fun deck to play.
I just figured that since our Locuses affect each other, that I should leverage the use of Crop Rotation and only put Locuses in play as needed... That, and Candelabra wins games in the matchup haha!
Well then. Yeah bounching the Delver is nice, bouncing anyting else is slow imo. Though bouncing your own permanents have its advantages.
Maybe one shall ditch the AiD and Stone in favor for Cyclonic Rifts then? Instant AID is incredible.
Spell Snare is rarely played anymore? Or it's just Rug that keep on playing it.
Yea, Stony Silence is worse but a Revoker from a Vial also wrecks you. And then both of which O-stones can't handle at all.
Completly agrees with you on O-Stones, where I rather have a Rift instead.
I would rather bounce it with Rift/Venser. Anyway this is a bad match.
But they will never overcommit the board. So you never get the full wipe with O-Stone. And now plyaing needles it's even worse, eventually you have to use it to get rid of their stuff.
Show and Tell never overcommits because it doesn't need to... it's game plan is to get a single permanent into play, and kill the opponent with it - whether this permanent be Omniscience, Dream Halls, Griselbrand or Emrakul, there is no such thing as "overcommitting" when playing a Show and Tell combo deck because the deck wins with a single permanent anyway, so the point is moot.
As for other decks, even if they don't overcommit, the Tempo they lose out on not playing threats will give you enough breathing room to go do what the deck does best - survive to play the end game, so even if O-Stone ends up destroying only 1 permanent, I find that it's still worth playing. Not a lot of value in terms of Card Advantage, but whatever gets you to the end game...
Actually O-Stone's interaction with Pithing Needles isn't as bad as I thought it was during testing. Even if you can't save your Needles, by the time you wipe the board with O-Stone, losing out on the needles isn't a huge deal since you've already ramped up by then.
One thing you'd want to save though is Candelabra, but that's what Repeals, or O-Stone's 2nd ability is for.
However, in a meta full of Revokers, then yes, O-Stone is not that great, though again, this is where Repeal truly shines.
My only problem with Cyclonic Rift is the color requirement. The deck runs anywhere between 4-6 blue sources, but even then there are times when you just can't hit the colored mana because of Wastelands, even when running Pithing Needles main. This situation is where All is Dust or O-Stone is significantly better.
Personally, go with whatever works for you. I hate getting color-screwed, so I will stick with colorless board-wipe effects for now. I will give Cyclonic Rift a second look though.
I'm playing in MTGO and I realize a couple of things:
1)Mindbreak Trap is not good against Belcher decks. They play the 2nd spell per turn and Charbelcher cames without answers. And more: all of then will go off turn 1 or 2. We need a minimum of two land in play to stop damage with Crop + Chasm. Yes, it is slow yet :(
2)I dunno wich card is best to replace against Belcher decks. For exemple: Grass stops tokens. Chalice prevents combo. Needle prevents Belcher. Trap prevents spells and Flutterstorm is by far the best option. But there is no slots for all stuffs.
3)Aways keep a Karakas untapped to bounce Eldrazis against Swords to Plowshares.
4)Never EVER play a Show and Tell agains Omni decks. Is very hard to manage and handle with. What you gonna do when Omni cames into play? Opp will play Burning Wish or Griselbrand and win looking your Emrakul in table doing nothing. That's my opinion. I like to run Vensers against and Karakas isn't enough. Bounce the creature makes opp play it again and again.
Finally I would rather Flutterstorms than Traps. I wuold like to hear your opinions about it and how to be more faster with this deck.
Anyway play with in MTGO is much better than cockatrice players :)
Snare is insane right now, and if it isn't being played in your meta, it probably should be. There's so many Goyfs, Burning Wishes, Infernal Tutors, Bobs, Hymns, Stoneforges and so on at the moment. RUG is poised to make a strong comeback, and BUG is currently running Snares, I believe, as well as U/W Blade.
Rift is definitely a "sweeper" slot card. Bouncing Delver is the best use of Repeal, I would say, but there's a lot of other uses...and I don't think that the "speed" of it necessarily matters. The deck builds up enough colorless mana that it shouldn't have a problem. Think about it temporally:
U: 0 drop
1U: 1 drop
2U: 2 drop
See a pattern? It's always one turn behind. But when you introduce a 2-mana-making Cloudpost into the equation, you're at parity. Additional mana off of a Post (or a 2nd Post) means that you're forever ahead of their mana development. Also, if you're on the play, that brings you to parity immediately with no work required. When they have a 1-drop, you'll have 2 mana to bounce it.
Eh. My opponents just always have it. Sometimes you need to hail Mary and hope that they don't have it -- and I will grant that it's nice to have that choice. But way too often, O-Stone will just get Decayed, or Qasali'd, or Sliver'd, or Pulsed, or whatever. Pernicious Deed has the same exact problem. You don't jam Deed in vs Maverick and let it sit there as a nuclear deterrent. It doesn't work. They'll just Zenith up Pridemage or Sliver, and you'll be sad.
I will grant you that it's good vs Show and Tell, but if they're Showing, it's usually better to put out a Titan or a Space Monster...or even Expedition Map....or post-board, something like Spine or Venser. It costs 5 to activate O-Stone. If they go Tomb->Petal->DERP, Showing your Stone won't do a damn thing. Corner case at best IMO.
Oh for sure, the best thing to SnT into play is still Venser or Titan, followed by the Eldrazi. Still, having additional relevant options for an opponent's SnT is still pretty good.
Corner case or not, I'd take whatever help I can get in an otherwise abyssmal matchup.
If they have removal for O-Stone, then thems the chops...
I can see only two scenarios where Mindbreak Trap will not be able to stop Goblin Charbelcher (i.e. it is the 2nd spell of the turn)
- His hand was full of Spirit Guides
- He spent the early turns playing permanent mana sources, and drew into Charbelcher later on
Now, Scenario 1 is a very rare occurrence. If you see that happen all the time, then you must be facing extremely lucky players, and I'd tell them to go buy a lottery ticket.
Scenario 2 is far more likely. In which case, Pithing Needle on turn 1 for Goblin Charbelcher is a killing against them. If this happens at anytime beyond turn 3, then you can hard-cast Mindbreak Trap by then...
Majority of the time though, Goblin Charbelcher is the 3rd-4th spell for the combo turn, meaning Mindbreak Trap's alternate cost is active by then, so you can Mindbreak Trap it away while it's on the stack.
I never said that SnT would overcommit. It was a reply to your post below. And as Arianrhod replied to the same Quote
But I don't like permanent based swepers. You are giving your opponent useful information about what you plan the coming turns. Maybe this is just my personal feeling.
I still don't think it's that good. You risk it will get destroyd before you even have the posibility to destroy a permanent yourself. And after that they keep playing threts..
As I said ypu maybe wanted to play repeal for targeting your own permanents.
With Mother of Runes, Repeal is truly great...
Well that might be true. Still the deck needs a blue source 9 times out of 10 to win. Am I right?
Sure! It's defenetly good in todays meta but I have rarely seen it. Prehaps I've been lucky.
Eitherway I'm on the play or draw, I always think I'm one turn behind when repealing. And that's also why I think the Rift is better when it comes to hit permanents with CMC 4+ then you usualy can bounce all of their permanents instead.
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