I like the idea of fitting FoW maindeck, but you really want 18 blue cards. Also, when thinning normal Green creatures, pitching Navigator or Palinchron to Force becomes thoroughly awkward. Against fast combo, it's an okay thing to do, as little guys can aren't much slower of a clock than big guys by the time you can play them. But it makes your Forces really awkward in other matches, where you want the combo, as your reasonable pitch count is like 14.Originally Posted by Kich867
I played around with this some tonight (when our tournament failed to fire), and was not impressed. Opening with Palinchron or Navigator is miserable, obviously. When I comboed out, another reasonable fattie would have been fine instead. Any counterspell or discard spell or removal spell would have been enough to disrupt me, and they had several turns to play find/play it.
I *do* like that throwing Navigator and Palinchron into a normal/fair BUG Nic Fit (with Empath) sideboard opens up an incredible mid/late game (when you know they don't have StP, at least, so you're not running weak/dead slots), but I don't think I'll maindeck this. And really, being able to run a 2-card, tutorable, infinite combo is pretty stinking strong. I'm used to spending 4 sideboard slots to get 3 shots to find Natural Order->Progenitus as a fair trump. This is 2 slots yielding 5 shots to find GSZ->Empath->win.
Dinrova Horror is actually quite amazing when going infinite, because you basically eat their board and discard their hands at the same time, and it's tutorable with Empath and it's not superbad on its own either ^^
I'm personally trying to make a pick between the Horror and Zegana for that slot, because Zegana is pretty amazing tbh.
I'd also definately want to try and fit in Jace, aswell as Venser, considering they can both be backbreaking cards in certain matchups, and Venser can form a soft-lock if you play with Wish -> Karakas.
I'm not sure if it's the right call to play FoW mainboard, unless your meta is really full of combo, because combo decks are the only decks you want them for, imo.
As soon as i get the few missing cards i'll start brewing aswell, i'm abit busy with my girlfriend in the hospital right now :(
Hope she feels better soon -- nothing serious, I hope!
I really don't like Dinrova. I've never liked Dinrova. I feel like he's just worse than Frost Titan. I guess Dinrova answers Omniscience as well as everything else, but....eugh. Maybe it's just a knee-jerk reaction to the fact that they can keep whatever card they want. Like, "Target player discards a card" is never good, unless it's happening 80 million times via Raven's Crime. But I dunno -- it's possible that it's better than I'm giving it credit for, I guess.
@Tao -- I fully acknowledge that I -shouldn't- be playing Nic Fit right now. But I guess I just have too much loyalty to the archetype =) And, at the end of the day, I play other decks when I feel like playing other decks. I have the ability to field Esperblade, BUG Delver, Shardless, 12post, U/B Stiflenought, AggroLoam, Miracles, Jund, Junk, BUGStill, and a few more random options; and I'm 4-8 cards from probably another half dozen archetypes. But, when I want to win, I play Nic Fit, because I have the experience with the deck. I can make it sing.
-------------------
A thought occurs.
I think there's a way that we can accomplish a straighter BUG control oriented list, while still making Deadeye better (but keeping the "kill" compact). Something like:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Master Biomancer
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Prime Speaker Zegana
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Palinchron
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
(note: 42 cards -- just a sketch of the idea, not a finished decklist)
This loses the Wish package, which is rough, but I like this direction overall -- creatures-as-spells. Deadeye wants creatures to interact with, preferably creatures with CiP triggers. However, blue control wants spells. I added a few more early threats, and I specifically went for Obstinate Baloth over Thrun BECAUSE Baloth doesn't have Hexproof. I WANT my opponent to use removal on him, so as to clear the way for Deadeye shenanigans.
I think that even if all of my other thoughts on this list turn out to be trash, Spellstutter Sprite is an enormous takeaway. Sprite gives us early interaction against basically everything, is a blue card for Force, and plays well with Deadeye, both as a flicker target and as a way to protect Deadeye from Swords.
Biomancer actually seems legit as a 4-drop threat, and I'm wondering if a 2nd copy would just be better than the Baloth. Making Spellstutters 3/3s and Cliques 5/3s (as well as Zenithing up 3/3 Explorers and Oracles) seems really legit. He also has a favorable interaction with Zegana if you get to that point.
The presence of Zegana means that we can forego other win conditions and just focus in on Venser. You can draw as much of your draw as you need to to hit a Venser while going infinite, and at that point you bounce everything forever. Zegana is also better than Rune-Scarred Demon when you're playing a fair game.
An exploratory sideboard would be something like:
4 Force of Will
3 Negate
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Trygon Predator
3 Blue Elemental Blast
Leyline seems like the best graveyard hate, since we can protect it pretty easily. The BEBs and the Trygon I'm less sure about, but I'm pretty sure that the board starts 4 Force 4 Leyline 3 Negate.
I dunno. It's a rough thought, and I feel one that has merit as a "better" evolution of the Deadeye deck. Since the Empath kill is so compact, I do agree that the shell should be more controlling. And if we can make the controlling shell creature-based so as to make Deadeye better outside of the combo kill, I see no reason why we shouldn't. It is annoying, though, that Faceless Butcher costs 4, and there aren't any similar options outside of white. I want spot removal of some kind, aside from just Vensering.
What do you guys think of something like this?
This looks like a step in the right direction. I love me some spellstutter sprite, Im not sure if its good in here though. I might be prefect though idk. Clique is also another generally good card that fits this deck well, regardless of his interaction with deadeye.
I dont think master biomancer will be that good, you should give wolfir silver heart a try. Getting +4/+4 power and an 8/8 the turn you cast him seems better than biomancers ability to give addition creatures you cast on future turns +2/+2.
I dont think finks or baloth are necessary. Personally, id rather have abupt decays or jaces instead of them. Or just cut them to get to 38 non-lands.
Okay, that is a fair point. I like seeing this kind of dedication. But still, the problem is that I think that the list is too caught up in the danger of cool things. Maybe try to go for something like this. Overall I would think this should do fairly well in your meta. If you are hellbent on playing with Deadeye I can't help you but I still do not think it is nearly as good as simple Jaces.
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Brainstorm
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 4 Negate
SB: 4 Force of Will
This is the same(?) list in your sig, I guess I'm just a little confused as to how this has a good matchup against combo. Beating combo game one is huge, personally, I'm not a fan of playing decks that are particularly soft to any one thing. Like throwing your game one against combo out the window just because you're boarding into 8 counterspells doesn't sound like it'll actually get there, the FOW's need to be main decked.
And in regards to pitching combo pieces to force of will, that's fine. Personally I don't think I'd play with the combo after sleeping on it, since it's pretty clunky, and plop 2-3 jaces in the deck as Tao is discussing. But even if I was, pitching a combo piece to a force of will is absolutely acceptable. The idea here would be to use forces against shit you actually can't answer, because quite frankly the deck answers -a lot- of things on it's own between Deed and Pulse and "Big Dudes".
If you're forcing something, you damn well need to, otherwise, save it. You're not keeping them off balance with it or protecting your combo, you're legitimately stopping something that might kill you if it resolves. I have to do more tinkering with my list, though a part of me is telling myself to brew an old-fashion UB Control list, which seems likely since it won't cost me anything at this point..
@kich: Compared to my sig list it has additional Discard, Liliana and Ooze MD; and much more Combo hate in the SB. I don't think you can include much more hate without affecting the deck's functionality, but maybe 2 Vendilion Clques or Vensers would be possible.
I think that maindeck Force of Will will not be working, you would get beaten by Jund, BUG and RUG if you start 1 for 2ing yourself and include additional bad topdecks in the deck.
@discussion: I like the brewing with Nic Fit a lot. Often very useful stuff comes out of it, like Rector, Scapewish and Punishing Fire lists. Or, in this case, the Negate/FoW sideboard which looks like I will adopt it into my normal BUG list. So I hope I don't appear to be too negative with my criticism. It is just that I am sure that Deadeye is horrible, that is all.
Further thoughts on the Deadeye package.
1. Deadeye is ridiculous in and of itself. It's actually tempting me to go back to Coiling Oracle, because blinking Coiling Oracle multiple times is awesome. Not to mention Thragtusk, Empath, Witness, etc.
2. Palinchron, on the other hand, is blargh: it doesn't do anything without Deadeye, and even with Deadeye it seems like win-more.
3. Empath Targets that work with Deadeye only need to go infinite to win on the spot, not to guarantee a win. Just think about it: if you allow me to live long enough to blink Frost Titan, Rune-Scarred Demon, Dinrova Horror, Grave Titan, Kokusho, or any other 6-drop creature with an EtB or LtB effect one to three times a turn, then you just sealed your fate.
If you start running cards like Stroke of Genius, take a look at Cunning Wish. The best Wish may also open up the window for Force of Will by pushing the blue count.
Wish options of an "X" kill spell, Abrupt Decay, Counter, Surgical Extraction, perhaps a trap, but what else?
@Arian:
I do play a Rusalka as a sac outlet, still Thoughtseize on GSZ does not help -.-
anyway, this is not what I wanted to tell.
I have to agree with Tao. I do not see at all how the latest list does anything against Combo. And I don't see how this is better than Scapeshift in that respect.
And by far, Nic Fit is not suited to play vs Combo.
Wanna play vs Combo ? play Force of Will.
Wanna rape Combo ? play BUG as Tao said.
I do not think it reasonnable to make it an achievement to find a Combo-resilient build for Nic Fit.
The best one could do is to make a main deck build good against S&T, but I doubt one could do better than that.
Nic Fit dies to Combo, that a fact, then make a Sideboard ready for it.
This said, you can do cool stuff with Nic Fit, and this reminds me when I was playing Full English Breakfast with a Reveillark-Venser loop to bounce the board of my opponent.
But those are *cool* things, and they are dangerous (and sure very fun :D, and yes I know what I am talking about).
And your cool stuff with the Deadeye, seems a bit of a gas-factory to me (I don't know if this means anything in English, at least in French it does ^^).
If the goal is to play a mid-range combo I will not move from my Omniscience build to this. Even in that role, I see Scapeshift better there.
Are you planning to go to Jupiter?
I really wish I could get a better feel for beating down combo. But I do have a TES to play against locally now. Reanimator was super favorable (after adding void to my GY, and realizing if I mull to that and therapy for SnT I win).
Retired Berserk Stompy player
Current Decks: Scapewish NicFit, Grixis Affinity, Green Zombardment
No Im busy this weekend. Ill be at mythic though.
My best advise would be to playtest against the combo decks on cockatrice. Knowing how different combo decks operate can be really useful. Also, go read up on Tin Fins, Caleb Durward recently top8d with it and its a solid deck that we will probably see more of. Also my philosophy, which a lot of players differ from, is that when playing a non-tempo deck, I will take out any and every clock piece if I have cards in my SB that could possibly interact against a combo deck. If they cant win, I win. But no matter how many huntmasters I see, Im not going to win before them if I don't interact with them.
Like even against S&T Id bring in mindbreak trap. Its hilarious when they go cantrip>petal>S&T - EXILED. Or if you have a REB in hand, you can use the MBT to end a counterwar. Its going to do a whole lot more than a huntmaster or thrag will. I usually try to leave in one of those beaters to GSZ for, but the rest can go. Prime stays, if you have him in hand and they show in anything that doesnt win that turn, you can often untap and win.
Some more tips for scapewish vs combo:
- A common trend for TES, ANT and hermit druid combo, (even omnicences) is to run gitaxian probe, in addition to regular discard and therapies. If you have a top out, don't draw more REB/MBT than you need to. Instead, float them on the top of you your library for as long as you can (draw them before you need to shuffle, but avoid shuffling if you can help it). And just draw them with top when you need them, it catches ALOT of people off guard.
- Dont be afraid to REB cantips at any point of the game if you are against a non-S&T combo deck. Decks like ANT/TES dont actually keep a winning 7 most of the time. They have to sculpt for a few turns usually, and besides diminishing returns, they dont play much blue spells once they are already comboing, so REBing a cantrip can often buy you a lot of time. Also, once they are comboing, if try to past in flames a cantrip or even just hit with off an Ad Nauseum, sometimes countering those cantrips can really mess them up too. Resolving AdD or PiF usually means they think they have the win, but if they arent expecting disruptions they can fizzle easily.
- Burning wish for thoughtsieze to interact on turn 3 is good, but if you think you have time slaughter games is obviously the nuts against these decks. Below is what I would name for various hard matchup combo decks and my logic (which my be flawed, anyone feel free to leave imput):
--- ANT: Tendril of agony - They lose on the spot. Godknows why, but most lists dont run BW or empty so you win! And if they do the empty, at least deed can answer it.
--- TES: This is tricky, If you have seen their hand, try to them to discard something important. Otherwise, Id say name BW.
--- HyperGenesis: HyperGenesis
--- Sneak: Griselbrand - Again if you know their hand, take a combo piece from it. If for some reason you did some crazy play where you got to cast a slaughtergames before they could make 3 mana for Show, name that, otherwise name Griselbrand. They win if he gets in play. We can IB Emra without having to face down a 14 card hand of counterspells. If they sneak emy they sneak emy, but its still better than a Grislebrand.
--- Omnicence: Again, unless we out mana them somehow, saw their hand, etc, name BW. They have 3 MD shows, and 4 BW which can get shows OR other good stuff. If its at the point where we are casting slaughter games, mana probably doesnt matter, so the fact that BW+show costs 5 doesnt really matter anymore.
--- High Tide: Time Spiral - They cant wish for it, and they have a much harder time winning with out it.
--- Reanimator: Not sure whats right here. I think entomb is right G1, show and tell G2/3.
--- Hermit druid: If you get to cast a slaughter games, they have probably already lost, but name Narcomoeba. They cant win G1 without it. If you name other stuff like azami or their angel in theory they could still get you with narc beats or zombie tokens. Sometimes the SB into belcher combo, but thats hard to read, I think id still name narc.
--- Belcher: Belcher. We can deal with goblins.
Good luck with that. They're being sued.
A: They received a cease and desist, not a lawsuit
B: You can still play on cockatrice, however you cannot download the client or use the main server.
How? I checked more than one server and it seems they're all down.
P.S. @Arianrhod: Yes I tested Palinchron and the infinite mana combo. It is certainly cool, but in my opinion:
1) It occupies a sideboard slot that could be used better
2) It forces you to play cards maindeck that are just bad in your opening hand or early in the game (Blue Sun's Zenith, Palinchron itself etc.), while not gaining that much power later
3) The combo when disrupted abandons you to topdeck mode.
Why I would play prime speaker and the rest?
In my opinion the deck should evolve into a highly synergistic mechanism. I would rather play many strong by theirselves CIP abilities, than a combo with suboptimal pieces when played alone.
Basically, if you get Zegana online, you have literally answers to anything (you can even interact with the stack thanks to the snake).
However, I agree with you that a few changes to the creature pack should be done in order to get the most from Zegana.
Also, Cloudthresher is sick, really. Thanks to him you can still have a "combo" ending that doesn't target and that is good on itself (and more important, doesnt require another card like Palinchron, which during a combo just generates mana).
Mulldrifter looks like fun!
I concur with those observations. Even if you want an infinite combo, anything past the singleton Palinchron to enable infinite mana is excessive. Whether that's sideboard Maga, or Stroke/BlueSun, or whatever else. It's either a hardcastable utility dork, Navigator or Palinchron or it's out.
I usualy just step out of the thread when I see conversations like these but I think it's about time to move on. I don't need to test cards like Storm Crow and Chimney Imp to know that they don't belong in Nic Fit.
Obviously they have some greater purpose elsewhere...
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
dude, you did a great job pointing out the key cards in nic fit but you forgot some that are considered really important. 1, deathrite shaman. this card is insane in the mirror and other decks like maverick or control decks die to deathrite. 2, liliana of the veil. this card is good against combo, sneak and show, and is a threat when played. 3, sensei's divining top. you should run about 2-3 in the deck. the reason is because top fixes dead draws. 4 hymn to tourach. some people think this is a card that should not be played in nic fit but they are wrong. you have a bad match up against combo and hymn gets rid of the gas that storm or high tide usually need to storm off.
sorry replied to wrong thread
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