[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[codegoblin]

Funny, I was also thinking about chill against Jund since the card has other narrow applications (sneak attack, empty the warrens, burning wish, burn, UR burn, Goblins), but wanted to test it first before suggesting. Good to hear it works to some extent.

Coming back to land destruction: if this strategy is really the nuts (which is not the case), maybe they just add 2-3 life from the loam to their 75. It has a good synergy with liliana, punishing-grove and our hymns anyway and suddenly they get to 2 mana and boom your gameplan goes to hell. Also as I stated before land destruction is horrible if you are behind in tempo and/or are able to develop a board while you crush their lands. They have a good curve on 1,2,3 and it's not like esperblade/mircales, where they are just reacting/controlling the game to get to 4+ mana to do win the game (of course exaggerated).

Claiming punishing fire does not work because of land destruction shows also not enough testing to me. First you want to waste and sinkhole asap so it has an impact and can’t wait for Grove. They play their bad 2 mana shocks killing your delver/deathrite. Then their fires sit in their graveyard until they draw (another) grove (please don't tell me you want to use deathrite to remove fire because this will be really really rare). Once grove hits they get their fires back gaining an advantage even if you are killing their land immediately.

The statement “going slow is wrong I want to go as fast as possible” sounds pretty dull to me. With what do you want to kill them fast? Delver? (lol), Tarmogoyf? (they play them as well + have burn to break stalls). Tombstalker is the only reliable win-con so far but unfortunately is not really fast and they also run 4 liliana’s. True liliana is a problem for every other “non-removable” creature you might try to replace Delver with, so thinking tokens is a good direction. Bitterblossom is unfortunately so much worse than lingering souls which is the legacy standard for token playability.

I also heard “they will draw bad because no cantrips and 22-24 lands”. This is where I see the most potential, which is why I would like test the following: Attack their hand with Thoughtseize and Hymn and keep the board clean first and then play creatures they have a harder time dealing with. You can argue with “they will do the same and have card advantage” which is true, but I would like to try if card quality (cantrips) + “strong threat’s” and hate like “chill” can keep up better than the tempo plan.

Ok so what I said "sounds pretty dull." I'm always open to new ideas ... What would your sb look like? I'm not sure I feel comfortable letting jund go wild with lands, which essentially enables them to land a BBE off a bob even after hymning/seizing their hand once or twice. From my experience attacking their hand < attacking their land < attacking with big creatures. I've also been happy the couple times I've been able to blow up two lands in one turn w/ sink + waste and force them to play a second bob which pings them harder every upkeep.

P.S. - We play the same two decks (SA + TA) ;)

[catmint]

Sure, I also love that feeling too and as I wrote a couple of posts ago in some starts you get the feeling that you can't loose. E.g.: ony the play with deathrite, wasteland, sinkhole, daze,... I desribed this plan as too swingy since it can be really good, but sometimes you feel so behind in t2/t3 you can never get back. E.g. they land a confidant but if you remove him with decay, they play land into liliana or Goyf & discard/deathrite your sinkholes look pretty stupid.

So the bad scenario happens more often than the good one AND once behind I don't like my chances, whereas if we are ahead their chances to come back are better.

I am also not claiming to have the answer of what the best setup is, but I am pretty sure sinkhole is not. Next I am going to test maindeck thoughtseize with hymn in the sideboard. 6 removal maindeck + 2 SB and some new ideas like chill, Thrun or Contagion.

[Adryan]

Sure, I also love that feeling too and as I wrote a couple of posts ago in some starts you get the feeling that you can't loose. E.g.: ony the play with deathrite, wasteland, sinkhole, daze,... I desribed this plan as too swingy since it can be really good, but sometimes you feel so behind in t2/t3 you can never get back. E.g. they land a confidant but if you remove him with decay, they play land into liliana or Goyf & discard/deathrite your sinkholes look pretty stupid.

So the bad scenario happens more often than the good one AND once behind I don't like my chances, whereas if we are ahead their chances to come back are better.

I am also not claiming to have the answer of what the best setup is, but I am pretty sure sinkhole is not. Next I am going to test maindeck thoughtseize with hymn in the sideboard. 6 removal maindeck + 2 SB and some new ideas like chill, Thrun or Contagion.

Serious? Contagion? Card Disadvantage against Jund? I still think the LD plan is the best against Jund. What else can you do as a tempo deck? Submerge, Sinkhole, Hymn and other Tempo Cards are the best things you can probably do against Jund. You can't be serious about Thrun. Why not play Shardless Agent in a tempo shell? Still better than Thrun.

[catmint]

I Said that I want to try new ideas... And some new strange stuff to replace delver submerge, which are bad and the tempo benefits associated with these cards. Trying out awkward stuff like Contagion, chill or trunn is part of the learning proceess . Even if they don't make the cut you get a deeper understanding of the matchup.

Keep your

'I do what everybody tells me to yourself'

[mike1987]

I Said that I want to try new ideas... And some new strange stuff to replace delver submerge, which are bad and the tempo benefits associated with these cards. Trying out awkward stuff like Contagion, chill or trunn is part of the learning proceess . Even if they don't make the cut you get a deeper understanding of the matchup.

Keep your

'I do what everybody tells me to yourself'

How is sinkhole in the side treating you guys? I just bought my playset and raring to go. So its usually sided in against stoneblade and miracles? Any other matchups whereby sinkhole is good?

[Amazing Larry]

How is sinkhole in the side treating you guys? I just bought my playset and raring to go. So its usually sided in against stoneblade and miracles? Any other matchups whereby sinkhole is good?

I'm loving the Sinkholes myself. They are great against Stoneblade and Miracles, a little less so against Jund, but still one of the better plans (I might try and test out Chill like some have been doing and it could also shore up the burn matchup). Sinkhole also shines against Sneak & Show for sure. I've also been overloading on maindeck discard lately, cutting the Sylvan Library and Dismember, going down to 19 lands and running 3 Thoughtseizes in their place maindeck. Then again, my meta is littered with combo, so the extra discard is great for me.

[codegoblin]

Sure, I also love that feeling too and as I wrote a couple of posts ago in some starts you get the feeling that you can't loose. E.g.: ony the play with deathrite, wasteland, sinkhole, daze,... I desribed this plan as too swingy since it can be really good, but sometimes you feel so behind in t2/t3 you can never get back. E.g. they land a confidant but if you remove him with decay, they play land into liliana or Goyf & discard/deathrite your sinkholes look pretty stupid.

So the bad scenario happens more often than the good one AND once behind I don't like my chances, whereas if we are ahead their chances to come back are better.

I am also not claiming to have the answer of what the best setup is, but I am pretty sure sinkhole is not. Next I am going to test maindeck thoughtseize with hymn in the sideboard. 6 removal maindeck + 2 SB and some new ideas like chill, Thrun or Contagion.

Right on, man. Yeah, report any results. Every deck has its worse matchups and jund is one of ours. I've only lost a _slight_ bit less than half the rounds I've played vs jund with the sinkhole plan, but there's always room for improvement, especially in a liquid meta like legacy's. I've thought about putting an extra thoughtseize or two in the board before ... getting esperblade-like protection against combo is always nice.

On the subject of delver ... ya, he's not *the greatest* vs jund ... but very relevant in just about every other matchup, so I'm not sure I have the same desire to cut him that you do. A turn 1 3/2 flyer is just ... never bad? Seems like if he were gone the deck would loose a whole lot in the tempo dept. DRS does good work, but it's damage that gets you there and he's not as good as delver in that respect. I feel like if you want to play bigger creatures, more hand disruption, etc etc, then maybe play bug midrange/control?

For those that are interested, chill has yielded pretty decent results for me. Against burn it goes without saying that it's amazing, but it also does solid work vs any combo deck that plays red (Sneak/Show, TES, ANT) and makes it so jund has a harder time plowing your board ... obviously there's the threat of being immediately abrupt decayed, but if they're prioritizing their mana and destruction to blow it up then that kinda tells you it's the right card to be playing ;)

GENERAL QUESTION:
How much GY hate are you guys putting in your sb these days? I'm always scared to cut mine, but I'm also very interested to see how putting some thoughtseizes in my sb will work out.

[Spike]

GENERAL QUESTION:
How much GY hate are you guys putting in your sb these days? I'm always scared to cut mine, but I'm also very interested to see how putting some thoughtseizes in my sb will work out.

I would definitely play some gravehate in the Sideboard at the moment. There are quite a few Reanimator decks (traditional and Tin-Fins as of late), and there´s also the new "oops, all spells" combo deck with Undercity Informer. Besides that there will always be some Dredge and Loam.decks, so all in all I think it´s reasonable to pack some gravehate in addition to Deathrite Shaman. I like Surgical Extraction the most cause it´s also good against Combo Decks (Storm, Show and Tell) together with the discard. It´s not an easy card to play with, but very rewarding if you get the timing right.
The other card I would consider is Tormod´s Crypt, which is generally stronger against Dredge and Reanimator, cause it also doesnt get hit by discard, but if you´re on the draw this could already be to slow against Tin Fins or the Undercity Informer.deck, and it´s useless against most other Combo decks (besides Past in Flames ANT). It´s also important that your gravehate has cmc0, so you can Ponder into it T1 for example, hence I´m not considering Cage or Spellbomb atm.

Nice to see that my other suggestions (Chill, Snapcaster,...) get some attention finally, I can definitely recommend them :)

@Sinkhole: It´s not the best card and it doesn´t win you the game on the spot against Jund, Esper, UW, ..., but for me it´s still the best approach at the moment. The Jace+Thoughtseize plan can also be successful of course, but how do you want to deal with Entreat the Angels, Geist of Saint Traft, Lingering Souls, Bloodbraid Elf, ... etc then? What if they just go for Stoneforge Mystic and beat you down with some equipment instead? There are also many things that have to go right with this approach, but I haven´t found 15 cards yet, that are capable of doing that. On the other hand, just playing 4 Sinkholes is a nice and clean strategy.

[Barbed Blightning]

Chill has been this shit for me. Wrecks Jund, esp. Punishing Jund, since their decays are focused on your other permanents

[catmint]

On the subject of delver ... ya, he's not *the greatest* vs jund ... but very relevant in just about every other matchup, so I'm not sure I have the same desire to cut him that you do.

I was obviously not talking about cutting delver but siding him out vs. Jund which would require some replacement slots to hit for the win.

[sdematt]

I told you Barbed, I fucking told you so :P

-Matt

[Barbed Blightning]

I told you Barbed, I fucking told you so :P

-Matt

I don't think I ever doubted it in the first place? :P

Why would we side Delver out? Evasion is our best friend against Jund, and given that we only run two Tombstalker, I think Delver should stay in. My plan is pretty simple, actually:

-4 FoW
-4 Daze
+4 Sinkhole
+3 Chill
+1 Jitte

It's been ridiculously solid so far.

[KobeBryan]

I don't think I ever doubted it in the first place? :P

Why would we side Delver out? Evasion is our best friend against Jund, and given that we only run two Tombstalker, I think Delver should stay in. My plan is pretty simple, actually:

-4 FoW
-4 Daze
+4 Sinkhole
+3 Chill
+1 Jitte

It's been ridiculously solid so far.

agreed...

You side out all the counters in a matchup with jund. Though I have to say, daze on the play is still pretty powerful.

And why are you running 3 chills in your sideboard?

[Barbed Blightning]

agreed...

You side out all the counters in a matchup with jund. Though I have to say, daze on the play is still pretty powerful.

And why are you running 3 chills in your sideboard?

Jund and, to an extent, burn are big decks right now, as are combo decks featuring red (tes, sneak attack, etc) so chill has some applicability across the meta. Submerge wasn't pulling its weight, which chill replaced.

Daze is daze. On the play, perhaps you should leave it in. I think countermagic is moot against jund

[KobeBryan]

Jund and, to an extent, burn are big decks right now, as are combo decks featuring red (tes, sneak attack, etc) so chill has some applicability across the meta. Submerge wasn't pulling its weight, which chill replaced.

Daze is daze. On the play, perhaps you should leave it in. I think countermagic is moot against jund

I actually think daze is not moot against jund. With your sinkholes, jund will try to cascade on turn 4 with 4 lands. Thats the perfect time to daze that stupid liliana.

[Barbed Blightning]

I mean, fair enough... but why not essentially turn off half of their removal and BBE altogether?

[KobeBryan]

I mean, fair enough... but why not essentially turn off half of their removal and BBE altogether?

If i am the jund player, i'd glady see your chill in the deck. it stops my burns, and my bloodbraid.

i still have 4 dark confidants, 4 goyfs, thoughtseizes, hymns, abrupt decay, deathrite shamans. out of the 16 creatures that they play, you only shut down 4 of them.

Also, you only delay them 2 more mana. its not going to "SHUT THEM OUT" like null rod to affinity.

3 card slots in the sideboard is just too much to waste for mediocrity against jund and burn.

[codegoblin]

If i am the jund player, i'd glady see your chill in the deck. it stops my burns, and my bloodbraid.

I still have 4 dark confidants, 4 goyfs, thoughtseizes, hymns, abrupt decay, deathrite shamans. out of the 16 creatures that they play, you only shut down 4 of them.

Also, you only delay them 2 more mana. its not going to "SHUT THEM OUT" like null rod to affinity.

3 card slots in the sideboard is just too much to waste for mediocrity against jund and burn.

I can attest (as can others around here) that it doesn't exactly shut them off, but definitely evens the playing field. I'm running two, not three. Sorry, but for the current meta it's a great sb option. Burn has almost been an auto loss for me too ... which I can't stand, so the chills stay.

Recently I've noticed a slight resurgence in W decks, particularly mav and D&T. This might be particular to my meta, but god damn does D&T just own BUG tempo. Anybody else noticing this? If it gets any worse I might have to throw in a couple dread of nights, at least for my friday night tourneys (also good vs lingering souls).

Anybody else taking TA to Vegas this weekend??

[StoneColdEffy]

My updated list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Thoughtseize
1 Dismember

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Sinkhole
1 Life from the Loam
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Disfigure

[Valarne]

D&T is definitely a bad matchup, and a really underrated deck with tier 1 potential. Its pretty popular in my meta, but it also takes a lot of skill to play optimally, so its not for everyone. Dread is obviously awesome, but pretty narrow, eh? Golgari Charm is good and more versatile I think.

The Chill seem narrow too from my perspective. i don't think burn is an autoloss at all. Hymn is very good, and so is Deathrite Shaman. We can ctualy construct a gameplan, leading up to a DRS untapping with them more or less hellbent. Its not a good matchup for sure, but not something that I think I would skew my sideboard with Chill for. The thing is also, that Chill doesn't stop their topdecks, which are the ones that kill us turn 6. Turn 2 it is probably at least as good just to drop a Goyf to block.
If I was dedicating slots towards Jund and Burn, I would prefer Obstinate Baloth. It wrecks Liliana at any +1 activation stage of the game, and destroys Burn if we get to play it. Double green is a bit tough, but it could be worth a couple of sb slots. I haven't gotten there personally yet, but it seems better than Chill.

Edit: What are your mirror sb-plans? It isn't unlikely to face, and I personally want some ways to deal with opposing Tombstalkers. I run 2 Dismembers main, but feel better if I have a bit more answers in the board, like Jace - which should be good in the mirror.