Agreed. I don't draw 7 off Grisel very often, but you have a good point. I'm still gonna play around with the list a bit more and see of I can tweak it a bit more in Spy's favour..see if I can come across anything more useful than status quo.Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Counter can still deny you playing anything but the grind-it-out gameplan. Games against counter-heavy decks are easier than with a "fair" deck though, as they'll only be able to stop the combo part of the deck, provided Therapy hasn't worked it's magic. Hyuk!
When I first started playing this deck I thought Manaless was the poorer, less useful cousin of LED Dredge (High five to Hollywood for correcting me on that!)
Manaless is more consistent than LED Dredge, although less likely to go BANG!!! on turn 2. The non-interactivity is a major plus to getting in a winning position.
LED Dredge tends to crumple to hate a lot easier than Manaless, due to having less threat density, and part of that is being a lot more vulnerable to counter. Manaless also doesn't worry much about Wasteland, as Dryad Arbor isn't necessary to kick some arse.
Don't take my word for it though, I'm a little biased now, as I'm lovin this deck more than any other right now.
you should try using this on a big event.. but try to do some solitaire first before you join and see how it works
My sentiments as well... I've actually sold my LEDs after a few tournies playing Manaless. I might have placed better with the Quadlaser List, but even while just starting out Manaless seems to be the better option.Agreed. I don't draw 7 off Grisel very often, but you have a good point. I'm still gonna play around with the list a bit more and see of I can tweak it a bit more in Spy's favour..see if I can come across anything more useful than status quo.
Counter can still deny you playing anything but the grind-it-out gameplan. Games against counter-heavy decks are easier than with a "fair" deck though, as they'll only be able to stop the combo part of the deck, provided Therapy hasn't worked it's magic. Hyuk!
When I first started playing this deck I thought Manaless was the poorer, less useful cousin of LED Dredge (High five to Hollywood for correcting me on that!
Manaless is more consistent than LED Dredge, although less likely to go BANG!!! on turn 2. The non-interactivity is a major plus to getting in a winning position.
LED Dredge tends to crumple to hate a lot easier than Manaless, due to having less threat density, and part of that is being a lot more vulnerable to counter. Manaless also doesn't worry much about Wasteland, as Dryad Arbor isn't necessary to kick some arse.
Don't take my word for it though, I'm a little biased now, as I'm lovin this deck more than any other right now.
short tournament report on a local tourney in our area last saturday. (22 players showed up)
game 1 vs high tide (2-0) -> he got no candelabra in the deck so he needs to play more lands to combo out. win!
game 2 vs goblins (2-0) -> he didnt sacrifice his siege gang which griselbrand blocked. Win!
game 3 vs omnitell (0-2) -> turn 2 snt to omniscience to enter the infinite playing borborigmos discarding all his lands
game 4 vs affinity (2-0) -> its his first time facing a dredge deck . Win!
game 5 vs nicfit (2-0) ->
ended at 2nd place getting 2 pcs hellrider (foil)
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short tournament report again for today's game
game 1 vs elves (0-2) -> got a slow opening hand in rd1 lose!. he drawed his 3 pcs relic of progenitus
game 2 vs manaless dredge -mirror- (2-1) -> rd 1 he won on his 2nd turnlose. rd 2 and 3.. 3rd turn kill i think. win!
game 3 vs omnitell (1-2)
game 4 vs the gate (2-1)
game 5 vs RDW (2-0)
10 people showed up.. ended at 5th place.. 8 combo decks and 2 non combo... bad meta for me
Last edited by rektareloaded; 02-25-2013 at 01:02 AM.
Hey peeps.
A few observations.
Took manaless along recently and had a rude shock.
Deathrite Shaman is weasling into almost every single bloody deck! Now I know this is not a new thing, but every single deck I faced was playing them. Contagion has never been more relevant. Even monogreen rogue decks I played against were playing that little pest.I had a tough time against all those GSZ > DRS turn 1 plays.
Secondly - Annex is kinda average. I tried it. Don't like it.
(could be more to do with me not facing any Storm the last two outtings I've been packing Manaless btw.)
It's only relevant to turn 1, and almost any deck will just get rid of their least useful spell, or simply pay the mana on turn 2. So the most we hope can for is to slow them down. Now I realise this can potentially be a big thing against Storm - I'm not saying it's a bad choice - but I don't like it.
Nature's Claims for Grafdigger's Cage etc., seems a far better choice in the side for me.
I also gave Unmask a go in the main. I tried to like it, but a lot of the time I found it to be tricky to get the best out of. Against fast combo (that can win t2 or 3) I tried using it quickly, only Brainstorm etc., screws us. Copping a Brainstorm to see nothing relevant (and Therapy next turn will still be a guess for whatever they hid) sucks considering it can cost us a timewalk....
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So for me;
Contagion is going up to 4, dropping Sickening SHoals. I've only ever cast SS maybe two or three times EVER after drawing off Grisel (how often that happen right?) And most of the time I wish I had a Contagion instead. Are most of you on the same page here?
RE: Annex - I'm gonna try Forge. It gives me a blocker against so many T1 creature threats (Lackey etc.) and possibly accelerates out a DR on T2 aswell. It's not gonna help against Storm, but I see aggro a lot more than STorm.
One last thing;
I've been running the 2 Verdant Catacomb, 1 Forest tech for ench/art removal for ages.
Lately, this is what's been happening;
Game2 answers & hate, Verdant in my starting 7; T1 lame duck discard, Opponent T2 = Gradigger;s Cage etc., I Wraith on opponent's T2 > My T2 Dredge = Forest in the graveyard.
SHIT!!!
Now Catacombs isn't just a forest, it's also Dryad Arbor, sure;
But Arbor just BEGS for removal for a turn, and if your opponent is clever Arbor eats it, and your answer is gonna just fester in your hand while they close you out of the game. The only saving grace here, is that no-one would ever comtemplate extracting Arbor.
So I think I'm gonna run an extra forest in the side.
How is it possible to have a tough time against DRS and dislike Chancellor at the same time? Chancellor is not a combo hate card, in the first place it's your best answer to DRS and discard.
Personally, I have never cast removal after drawing it off Griselbrand yet, when do you need this instead of just winning?
If you feel you need a non-Abrob free creature, it's probably a better idea to try Shield Sphere. It has some advantages over red Chancellor, the most important of which is being able to deliver Zombie tokens.
Just letting you all know my findings after running Annex & Trap.
And you'd be right most of the time, but last time I left the house with Manaless, Chancellor didn't help me much in this regard.
Simply, they put us on the roll. We get timewalked.
Even if it goes to plan;
Thier turn 2, they pop down a second land and play DRS. Now this isn't bad, but this assumes they're not playing any 0-cost artifacts or alternate mana-sources or other spells that have 0 or alternate costs that cheat into play and only need to pay one to Chancellor.
Paying the Chancellor off (or a 0-coster), and plonking their DRS down on turn 1 is very possibe. Chancellor isn't a strangle hold on turn 1 like we all wish it was!
Okay...maybe I've had a few dud matchups, i dunno. I did face a few rogue decks....
Chancellor didn't seem to slow my opponents hating my turn1 graveyard anywhere near as much as I thought it would.
A few ways, like Platinum Angel for one - I've had to deal with that thing a few times.
I've never seen Lich in play before, but that's another possibility...
Most of the time, FLayer is enough to deal with it, provided your opponent doesn't have Misdirection/hexproof effects running on the thing.
Maybe, but that's also a Timewalk. Red Chancellor gives me a creature without losing a card from my hand.
No deck in the format plays Deathrite Shaman and 0cc artifacts, and I think in order to gain an appreciation for how good Chancellor of the Annex is in Dredge then you actually have to play against Dredge with Chancellor of the Annex to understand how annoying it is.
since I'll be joining tomorrow's major legacy event in our country, I took some time to browse some of the top decklist we can see in SCG and in other countries to see what are the things they usually have for GY hate/dredge hate. this is also to help myself and some of my fellow dredgers to figure out or to have an idea what other decks might have for us on postboarding.
let's take a look at UW/UWB stoneblade
SIDEBOARD #1
1 Force of Will
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Path to Exile
1 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Perish
SIDEBOARD #2
1 Force of Will
1 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Hydroblast
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Disenchant
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Duress
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
SIDEBOARD #3
2 Force of Will
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Detention Sphere
2 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Flusterstorm
1 Perish
1 Deathmark
1 Celestial Purge
so we might be facing surgicals and relic (and extirpate for some) vs this deck
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vs RUG Delver
SIDEBOARD #1
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Chill
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rough / Tumble
SIDEBOARD #2
1 Rough / Tumble
4 Submerge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Divert
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Pithing Needle
SIDEBOARD #3
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough / Tumble
2 Pithing Needle
4 Submerge
2 Engineered Explosives
i guess it will still be surgical , rough/tumble and explosives
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vs SNT variants
SIDEBOARD #1
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wipe Away
1 Misdirection
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Mindbreak Trap
wow! this one hurts!
SIDEBOARD #2
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pyroclasm
2 Through the Breach
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wipe Away
SIDEBOARD #3
4 Defense Grid
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Stifle
2 Karakas
OMG!
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vs BUG variants (aside from drs)
SIDEBOARD #1
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Engineered Plague
4 Force of Will
1 Life from the Loam
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
SIDEBOARD #2
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Submerge
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
probably surgicals
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vs Jund
SIDEBOARD #1
1 Punishing Fire
2 Extirpate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Krosan Grip
1 Choke
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Confusion in the Ranks
1 Angel of Despair
2 Duress
SIDEBOARD #2
1 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Plague
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Duress
3 Pyroblast
SIDEBOARD #3
1 Punishing Fire
1 Angel of Despair
1 Confusion in the Ranks
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Extirpate
2 Duress
=>tormod's crypt and extirpate (and some explosives)
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wish us luck for tomorrows event.. hopefully one of us here will take home the set of taiga
Well I guess the peeps around me play decks a bit different than around you?
Fact is, I played against it. If 0cc cards and DRS together in the same deck aren't popular round you, than I can understand your viewpoint.
But I can think of one deck straight off the top of my head that plays DRS and 0-cc cards, Pact Spanish Inquisition.
My knowledge of Legacy "decks" is quite limited, I'm sure many of you know more achetypes than me. But there's got to be more than that, just based on what I played against.
CHalice of the Void is pretty common round here, pretty easy to ditch that to Chancelllor and then drop DRS (which is what happened to me twice in game 2 and 3 of one MU)
Or;
Maybe just some original builds floating around?, or some peeps chucking DRS into other well-known decks that have G or B?
I dunno. Of the matchups I had that I did recognise, NicFit was good fodder for Annex, as was Jund. Both decks were as you say. The others I didn't recognise.
Annex was good - no question it made opponents play out their hand differently, and for that it is a good choice - but the other night it didn't stop the majority of turn1 plays like I thought it would. I was playing it out of the side only.
You guys seem pretty happy with Annexs' inclusion.
Do you all play this bugger out of the side, or are you mainboarding it?
Hello folks,
I am new to this forum but lingered around here for a while.
I play hollywood's list exept -1 Flayer +1 Angel of Despair.
Atm I am giving it a try MD with 2shoals and 2contagion in SB.
It helps if you are on the draw, even more if you are put on the play, protects against early discard, is nice for Dread return if you have no Grisel/Flayer in your graveyard and helps our nether shadows. And all that without timewalking ourselves. Seems nice to me.
It does not do very much on his own but it seems to have a good synergy with the deck. I like when it shines in my starting hand to ease the first turns.
MD or SB? Mmh... Since our first turns are crucial I would play it MD. Postboard it helps too.
On the other hand manaless is that consistant so that it might not be really necessary MD.
I do not play much against TES or ANT but I like it, too, in other matchups.
Only my humble opinion. Cya
P.S.: Good luck, Rektar!
Cards on the way to finish the deck! I'll have led dredge and manaless dredge put together. Won't even have to swap cards. I cant wait to get this together and play with this beast!
Playing Spy would require you to cut Dryad Arbors and any potential Dakmoar Salvage - Bloodghast plan. I'm not sure that I'd want to cut those, however on the flip side if you can hit it with DR then you're guaranteed to hit all the remaining resources in your deck.
It also seems more vulnerable to Stifle.
Yeah, it is a risky play.
I wouldn't worry too much about Stifle, as it'll only delay you. Just DR another Spy....
Moreso I'd worry about all the POP artifacts like Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progentius that could be sac'd in response.
Since RThomas suggested it I've tried quite a few different builds.
And no matter how I do it, I can't seem to cure the vulnerable side of it and retain the character of manaless.
The best I've tested is a less likely to win in a single turn version. Simply include a single Land/Dryad Arbor, similar to Charbelcher decks do. Less chance of killing yourself, but also less likely to win immediately, although it would force us to win via grinding it out like most post-side games.
Post sideboard, this would be a nightmare to win through hate......
other versions sacrificed safety for speed or vice-versa.
I give up!
I've been considering going "fearless" against artifact/enchantment hate, as number 1 they're rarely being played now due to DRS, and number 2 they're simply unreliable/inconsistent. You need BOTH Arbor and Claim/Silence in your opening hand or you're screwed, no way am I mulling for those. With Arbor gone, this can easily be replaced by 4 Chancellor of the Annex, which in my opinion, is simply the SHIT. I've been playtesting this against a couple of the more popular decks in our meta and it has worked wonders! Not only does it delay Brainstorm/Ponder for blue-based decks, it stalls DRS by a turn (and as all of you might already know, turn 1 DRS is the only DRS that a capable Manaless Dredge player fears), screws loose keeps (oh, so you kept a zero 1-drop hand because you had 2 lands and a Bob/SFM huh?) and finally it helps the deck go "faster" as our opponents go "slower".
By going "fearless", we open up shitloads of space in our SB. Removal obviously is the first choice (I've delegated much of the removal in the board as I am playing around with Bloodghasts and Probes again) followed by more combo hate (Mindbreak Trap). I can finally alot 2-4 spaces for the SnT matchup (Kederekt Leviathan and/or a split with Angel of Despair). I'm also trying to fit in 7-8 slots for LEDs and Faithless Looting which helps a lot when our opponent "time walks" us G2:
2 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Kederekt Leviathan
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Faithless Looting
Anyway, will be busy playing Nic Fit for a while :)
I wish you luck!
I would think your game1% will be boosted, but after that I'm curious just how much this side would benefit you running without answers to ench/art's.
I'm too scared, as I hate just copping Grafdigger's/LotV/RiP two games in a row with no answer at all.
I run 4 (forest & 3 verdant) additional sources in the side personally.
If you're truly going down this path, please let us know your game win/loss %'s though games 1, 2 and 3.
And don't forget that even decks like Goblins are running RiP these days....
I would consdier testing against a Enlightened Tutor deck too.
I don't understand how running LED's and Faithless Lootings sideboard is any different in the consistency then running lands and Disenchant effects in the side.
LEDs in your opening hand in G2 work great even without Looting. It also gives us the option to mull for it in G2 as even without Looting in your GY you still get to discard your whole hand. You basically go from all in G1 to NUTS AND BALLS ALL IN G2 if need be. Mulling/inconsistency issues with the anti-hate we pack post board is a different thing. LEDs post board offers explosiveness on the play. You only need LEDs in the opening hand, Looting is not an issue. Even if you keep 7 and DDD, you can keep the LED until you have Looting in the yard and just fuck the game up. FEARLESS
I will definitely try this out, maybe in the next few bigger tourneys in our country. But time is not yet ripe. Everyone is still scared of Mr. rektareloaded!
I'd like to know how you go with LED's. They solve the mulling prob. like you say.LEDs in your opening hand in G2 work great even without Looting. It also gives us the option to mull for it in G2 as even without Looting in your GY you still get to discard your whole hand. You basically go from all in G1 to NUTS AND BALLS ALL IN G2 if need be. Mulling/inconsistency issues with the anti-hate we pack post board is a different thing. LEDs post board offers explosiveness on the play. You only need LEDs in the opening hand, Looting is not an issue. Even if you keep 7 and DDD, you can keep the LED until you have Looting in the yard and just fuck the game up. FEARLESS
I will definitely try this out, maybe in the next few bigger tourneys in our country. But time is not yet ripe. Everyone is still scared of Mr. rektareloaded!
Anti-Synergy with Wraith & Probe seems pretty *meh* though, they are definitely putting all your efforts into the yard, hoping your dredging turns something up worth the effort.
So you have Annex to slow them down, and LED with Wraith, Probe & Phants to accelerate before they can hate your first dredger in the yard.
Gonna have to test it myself, so much accleration has me very curious!.although I'm still a bit scared of hate.....
Not really anti-synergy, you can cast Probe or cycle Wraith, hold priority, and activate LED. Much like how it works with BreakthroughI'd like to know how you go with LED's. They solve the mulling prob. like you say.
Anti-Synergy with Wraith & Probe seems pretty *meh* though, they are definitely putting all your efforts into the yard, hoping your dredging turns something up worth the effort.
So you have Annex to slow them down, and LED with Wraith, Probe & Phants to accelerate before they can hate your first dredger in the yard.
Gonna have to test it myself, so much accleration has me very curious!.
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