I don't know if dropping Goyfs is due to budget, but splitting Goyf and Tidehollow is pretty intriguing, especially when you have GSZ to tutor it up turn 3.
Turn 1 discard, turn 2 Tidehollow, turn 3 Knight or GSZ Goyf...would that be too slow? Maybe drop Knight to 2 instead and run 2 Tidehollows.
All this issue of Tidehollow Sculler seems to be more like a wishful thining to me. It is a nice card, no doubt but it is absolutely terrible in real magic. There are so many better cards to play.
It used to be playable when you could vial it in after draw or in response to his fetchland. When you could protect him with Mother of Runes and seriously equip him.
What is his job in your deck now? Be an awful discard (since your opp will get the card back soon) that is mana+color intensive or a pathetic creature that can't do anything. There is no justification for this guy. Play either discard or Canonist, Hymn, Teeg in the board.
Last edited by Koplinchen; 03-06-2013 at 03:19 PM.
I absolutely hate it when someone trashes a card that someone else has had success with. I wonder Koplinchen, have you ever tested the card or is this simply your opinion? If we all agreed on what is the absolute best build wouldn't we all be playing it? If you're gonna bash it at least offer some theory behind it or some alternatives.Originally Posted by Koplinchen
I would disagree, especially in a combo heavy-meta. He's a thoughtseize on a stick that -doesn't- hurt you. At worst, he demands an answer as your opponent wants their card back, at best, he applies pressure while keeping your opponent off of something important.
Show and tell doesn't have a great answer to it, you exile their emrakul, they're left with gas but no business and they have no way to remove him. He's there as maindeck flexible combo hate. Also, it's uncommon, but the chance of your opponent not knowing how to play around him can absolutely blow them out, if they kill him in response to the trigger you exile a card from their hand permanently.
I played a few games without top. I didn't have consistence, I thing I need to either use green sun zenith or a different sfm package (maybe run 4 of her and 3 equipments?). I'm just loving lingering souls, but sometimes I miss big beatsticks (though I'm running goyf). I feel that if my opponent is able to seize the game, I can't "come back" like in the early days. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong?
i tested tidehollow sculler as a 2 off for a bit now, and i have to admit he is way stronger than i anticipaded
obviously he does the best in combo matchups, where they have now way to get their card back
but he also is doing rather fine in other matchups, even against removalheavy decks, simply because he either keeps their removal away from himself and pings the opponent a bit, or he might even become target of a removal, so they get their important spell back,.... in this case its one removal spell less that can be pointet to confidant/goyf/knight
i think he might even be worth testing as a 4-off in addition to the standard creatures we used to run
he is capable of slowing down other decks, and in this case we have it easier to win
one thing i was wondering about..... if you sac tidehollow sculler with therapy for example, does the opponent get the card back before therapy takes effekt....... obviously only good if you know the opponent has a 2nd card in hand (same as sculler removed)
does therapy make them discard both cards in this case or not?
i really recomend testing him, he is fun to play, and opponents often do not know how to react to him properly, or when to react to him
There's a lot of that on this forum, unfortunately. :l
Tidehollow is at least a one-for-one. He looks meh, but it's pretty decent value. If your opponent wastes time just trying to find a way to get the card back, then he's already better than a plain old one-for-one.
Therapy is a sorcery so you can't actually sac Sculler to it until the Sculler's ability has finished resolving. So, you'll give that card back. This is important because you're giving it back after you've look at their hand and before you name a card with Therapy (name on resolution). So, you can call the card you took.
Basically, if you want to get that more bang for you buck, you need Sculler to change zones (die, bouce, phase, or exile) before his/her ability resolves.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
After a lot of play I've actually been not loving Lingering Souls. It's rarely what it is for a deck like Esperblade to me. I find it's often just a stalling tactic while I durdle to find a Knight. So I dropped them for Green Sun's Zenith. I should be coming into a good bit of money soon, so I may try and swing some Thoughtseizes.
Though I'm fairly ambitious, and I want a playable build for Aggro Loam, Reanimator, and The Rock. Loam I'm just missing the lands for, Reanimator I could use another U. Sea and a pair of Grizzlebees. And for The Rock, I'm really interested in testing out Tidehollow Sculler's and be a bit more proactive with the deck. This gives me 9 discard effects and 3 of them have a body. If I can find some cheap on ebay or something I may replace Duress with Thoughtseize.
// List: 60
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Duress
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Sylvan Library
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
2x Scrublands
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
3x Wasteland
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Swamp
1x Forest
// Sideboard: 15
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Batterskull
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Hymn to Tourach
@kich867
regarding souls, it works better with sfm package. I actually replaced kotr for them, but this was due to the fact that souls is good to have against bug, and sfm is good against burn - when these two sum up to 4-6 of 18 decks in the metagame that matters a lot. Also, the aggro match is good either way and combo is combo...
But tidehollow seems too interesting not to test.
I have to split the posts, otherwise my phone will cut them :(
continuing, my real problem is that I often find myself in such a scenario: both of us without hand, board clear, one (or two) lingering souls used up, and a almost dead opponent. Then, I brick in lands/discard spells and my opp recovers.
In my particular meta, it's not uncommon to see Reanimator, Show and Tell, and Hypergenesis, all of which sort of require Karakas to answer effectively. Mainly, this build is looking to have a better combo matchup than what I've previously been doing. I think part of that involves having Knight be a sexy-land-tutor for Karakas / Maze of Ith. Lingering Souls helps in no particular matchup I can think of that Stoneforge and Tidehollow Sculler don't also operate pretty well in. Bug also gets pretty rocked by Sword of Feast and Famine. Their Abrupt Decays are a little overloaded in this matchup. Knight + Bog + Deathrites will also keep them off of tombstalker. BUG Tempo right now is just absolutely backbreaking against a lot of decks though, the whole Delver + Flip into Hymn with Daze / Force backup is just fucking game ending.
Preaching to the choir there, buddy
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
Kich I just looked at your list. You managed to fit it all, but no lilianas. I'm traumatized by "no lilianas": on the last tournament I played I met 2 guys playing BG NO-Pro... And it was awful...
Liliana's were consciously cut as they'd be the only source of double black and I find myself very, very rarely wanting to discard any cards. I usually just used her to -2 and thats it.
I would love to get her back in there, but gsz is too important and there's really nothing left to cut for her. She definitely just takes some games over though. Maybe ill try and squeak two of her in though.
Last edited by Kich867; 03-06-2013 at 09:45 AM.
I am sorry I did not mean to be offensive. I just wanted to be brief and clear.
I did play Tidehollow Sculler of course. Not in Rock but in the BW Tempo where he was really good for obvious reasons. (equipment, Mother, Vial)
Tidehollow Sculler is playable. He is descent (not good) against combo. The good thing is that you can see his hand and then you can hit him hard with Therapy. Another thing is that you can attack (against combo or with equipment) In theory you can blow out Show and Tell Omniscience version when you steal his wish or Emrakul.
The bad thing is that usually he just sits there and can not attack or block. Sometimes you are waiting to be blown out by his removal into THE card. For 2mana he is slow against deck he is good against and even slower in the other matchups. The fact he is an artifact doesen't help either.
Tom
I've messed around with Tidehollow Sculler some as well. He was alright in the sideboard mainly as a complement to my already fairly heavy maindeck discard suite (4x Thoughtseize, 3x Cabal Therapy in a Lingering Souls build).
I do agree he's pretty bad against all those midrangy decks, especially Jund. Usually he's going to eat a removal spell and usually isn't going to be a very effective attacker much less a good blocker. Punishing Fires is a particular nightmare for this guy to fight against.
However, against combo he's been alright in the sideboard since they usually don't have a way to get rid of him so he's just like a free discard spell on a 2/2 body.
No you didn't offend, I think your post just set me off because I've seen a string of similar posts trashing a card but not offering much insight. The above post however is great. You offered first hand experience with some insight and strategy which helps sell your opinion much better. Thanks and no hard feelings.
I'm all for testing cards in other decks and I think it's a great way to find out if things work. I am against testing a card(s) in one deck and passing judgement on them in another. Each deck has it's own set of strengths and weaknesses which allow it to support each potential addition in different and a lot of the time unique ways. You should always try cards in the deck that they're going to be replacing cards to figure out if they work; don't pass judgement based on another deck.
tl;dr - One man's trash is another man's treasure. See if it's treasure here before deciding it's trash from the opinions of other(s) there.
That being said, I am currently using Hymn over Sculler. Sculler always ended up disappearing (typically from Burning Wish into Pyroclasm) and the cards would go back. While that may have just been my bad luck, them having the cards in the first place was the issue. I, however, am still running Mox and have gone back to 3 SFM as well. 3-4 Deathrite did not work well for how I expect the deck to function. They (Sculler and Shaman) are working well for other people.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
I completely understand he wasn't trying to be offense, lay of the brothers grill....
Ian, I was doing the same thing until i realized that I actually like having more bodies to put in play and drs isnt completely dead if i draw it late compared to the mox where it would be a dead draw or didn't matter no more. Then I tried playing 2/2 split of drs and mox then 3/3 and i liked it but way too many of my utilities disappeared and I didn't like that also. I mean you can try it out. I will say that I have started playing stf again also just because batterskull is a bitch to deal with lol ask any jund player, bug player or even esper, ant players and burn players also have a hard time dealing with it.
My creature base
4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shamen
3 Knight of Reliquary
3 Tarmorgoyfs
2 Stoneforge Mystic
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