Miracle Control

[Malakai]

Lingering Souls ended up being pretty terrible. It helped vs aggro a decent amount, including Delver decks, but it wasn't amazing. It was terrible against control decks, especially if those decks had their own Lingering Souls + Equipment (not surprisingly).

[alphastryk]

Lingering Souls ended up being pretty terrible. It helped vs aggro a decent amount, including Delver decks, but it wasn't amazing. It was terrible against control decks, especially if those decks had their own Lingering Souls + Equipment (not surprisingly).

Thanks for sharing your results. It doesn't surprise me that it is poor vs the other control decks, especially stoneblade. Souls being a less powerful version of their plan seems suspect, but at least it gives you something to board out?

I think I'm going to start trimming RiP / Field pieces for now, as my local meta has moved away from goblins, thresh, and graveyard combo a fair amount. If that trend continues, I'll likely be back on a more traditional plan with more counters and a 4th terminus & Jace. Still, I think the benefits of being in red are much greater than those of black, so I'll stick with the splash even if Blood Moon moves to the board or goes away.

[cschacal]

I'd like to know what list is currently playing oarsman. What non RIP+Helm list do you think is the best?

[twndomn]

You bring flawed arguments to bash my assumptions of red. You basically took my words and reasons to play red and twisted them in a convolute way so that they sound false or illogical. I'll try to go the kind way another time and repeat myself:

You cannot just your own logic when I quote your post, and you blame your own flaws in your posts on your arbitrary so-called twisting. Do you always blame other people refuting your argument based on your own logic, as if no faults are ever your own?

No amount of time you spent can undo your own flaws, feel free to repeat yourself to cover up yourself.

[Waikiki]

You cannot just your own logic when I quote your post, and you blame your own flaws in your posts on your arbitrary so-called twisting. Do you always blame other people refuting your argument based on your own logic, as if no faults are ever your own?

No amount of time you spent can undo your own flaws, feel free to repeat yourself to cover up yourself.

I think you misunderstood what he was actually saying. His arguments are valid you just seem to disagree or not understand.

[twndomn]

Congrat to Joe/oarsman, who made as far as traditional miracle could.

Then thank to Jack Colwell, for re-affirming what people and I have already mentioned, and dismissing some on this forum calling RiP version clunky, to actually win the whole thing.

[Dzra]

re-affirming what people and I have already mentioned, and dismissing some on this forum calling RiP version clunky

Not to feed the trolls, but both lists splashed Red for REB.

RiP has a certain appeal to it, despite it being clunky in a lot of MU's. I suppose it depends on what you're expecting, but at worst, boarding out (or in) the 4 card RiP/Helm package isn't overly strenuous. It's curious that he didn't run a single Energy Field in the whole 75 though. And I have to say, I like Elspeth making a reappearance.

Congrats to both though. Hopefully with combo and RUG on the rise again, we'll see Miracles start making more appearances... and I wouldn't mind seeing a tournament report or two.. ;)

[Jakgotbak]

Not to feed the trolls, but both lists splashed Red for REB.

RiP has a certain appeal to it, despite it being clunky in a lot of MU's. I suppose it depends on what you're expecting, but at worst, boarding out (or in) the 4 card RiP/Helm package isn't overly strenuous. It's curious that he didn't run a single Energy Field in the whole 75 though. And I have to say, I like Elspeth making a reappearance.

Congrats to both though. Hopefully with combo and RUG on the rise again, we'll see Miracles start making more appearances... and I wouldn't mind seeing a tournament report or two.. ;)

Yeah, I hate Energy Field. The RiP/Helm combo may be a bit clunky at times, but at least it wins the game on the spot, instead of just delaying things until your opponent finds an answer.

I can't take credit for the Elpseth. If you compare lists, I'm only a few cards off Plattenburg's Atlanta list. I just started with that, took out the few cards I didn't like, and remade the sideboard to my taste and expected meta.

I'll probably do a tournament report soonish.

-Jack

[SBGpinas]

Congrats on the win Jack!

I'm curious as to why you have the Jace Beleren in your sb. Sorry if I sound a bit noobish, but I can't seem to imagine which matchups you use Jace Classic on...

[Jakgotbak]

Congrats on the win Jack!

I'm curious as to why you have the Jace Beleren in your sb. Sorry if I sound a bit noobish, but I can't seem to imagine which matchups you use Jace Classic on...

Any deck running Jaces of its own. Being able to sneak one into play a turn earlier is pretty great.

Plus, I just love the card.

[alphastryk]

Yeah, I hate Energy Field. The RiP/Helm combo may be a bit clunky at times, but at least it wins the game on the spot, instead of just delaying things until your opponent finds an answer.

I can't take credit for the Elpseth. If you compare lists, I'm only a few cards off Plattenburg's Atlanta list. I just started with that, took out the few cards I didn't like, and remade the sideboard to my taste and expected meta.

I'll probably do a tournament report soonish.

-Jack

I appreciate the credit. ;)

I'm actually not a huge fan of Elspeth at the moment, but she can be pretty powerful.

Energy Field can definitely be clunky, and I'm down to just one copy myself. I'd not thought about actually cutting all of the Energy Fields, but I tend to run into a lot of things like Goblins that actually cannot beat the RIP / EF lock in game one. I'm guessing that's less of a concern in your meta, although you do have a Moat to shore those matchups up post-board.

I've never been a huge fan of the Geist of St Traft plan, but it looks like it worked out for you. Any thoughts on that decision you'd like to share?

[igormagic]

Congrats on the win Jack!

I'll test your list this week in championship, the only card that does not yet have is 1 volcanic island.
What better replacement for her, steam vents or plateau (i have both)?

[Jakgotbak]

I appreciate the credit. ;)

I'm actually not a huge fan of Elspeth at the moment, but she can be pretty powerful.

Energy Field can definitely be clunky, and I'm down to just one copy myself. I'd not thought about actually cutting all of the Energy Fields, but I tend to run into a lot of things like Goblins that actually cannot beat the RIP / EF lock in game one. I'm guessing that's less of a concern in your meta, although you do have a Moat to shore those matchups up post-board.

I've never been a huge fan of the Geist of St Traft plan, but it looks like it worked out for you. Any thoughts on that decision you'd like to share?

Funny story, on Saturday night, I went 1-3 in the Legacy Challenge, which included a loss to a Goblins player that burned me out from 17 after I resolved a turn 4 Moat. Sometimes you're not meant to win. (And, as it would seem, sometimes you're not meant to lose, no matter how ill-advised some people think your mulligan decisions are.)

The thing with Energy Field is that I just don't ever, under any circumstances, want to draw it. I don't want to be tempted to burn my Enlightened Tutor to get the Rest in Peace, only to get 3-for-1ed by someone blowing up the RiP. Against pretty much every deck, I have something else I'd rather tutor for; and if I've already drawn the RiP, and I'm looking to combo, I 100% of the time will go for the instant win with Helm. And I know you can always brainstorm away an extra combo piece, but our Brainstorms are already so overtaxed in game one - shuffling away the chaff or setting up miracles.

I figured cutting E Field would make random stuff like goblins harder, but not impossible, whereas the decks I was most concerned with were Jund, BUG, SnT, and to a lesser degree, Tin Fins. Cutting those two cards made room for another Entreat and a Venser, a decision I'm very happy I made. Also, for all the random stuff that E Field used to beat, more surprise angels is pretty good.

As for Geist, he does a lot of work. He's great in the mirror and against Jund and BUG, but he's also just great when you're going to game 3 with 10 minutes left and you need to go aggro. And sometimes, you just need a body. I sided them in against UR Delver just to have something to trade with Goblin Guide, and it worked. I stabilized at 4 life after he played GG on turns 1 and 2. Also, he's a 3-drop for counterbalance, which is pretty nice.

Congrats on the win Jack!

I'll test your list this week in championship, the only card that does not yet have is 1 volcanic island.
What better replacement for her, steam vents or plateau (i have both)?

Thanks a bunch! Gotta go with Steam Vents, I think. The life loss will suck a little, but you'll have twice as many fetch lands that find it.

EDIT: on second thought, Plateau's not bad if you run 4 Tarns instead of the random blue fetches I was running. That way, you'll have 9 ways to fetch it. And I found myself from time to time wishing I'd had more white mana in play.

[twndomn]

As for Geist, he does a lot of work. He's great in the mirror and against Jund and BUG, but he's also just great when you're going to game 3 with 10 minutes left and you need to go aggro. And sometimes, you just need a body. I sided them in against UR Delver just to have something to trade with Goblin Guide, and it worked. I stabilized at 4 life after he played GG on turns 1 and 2. Also, he's a 3-drop for counterbalance, which is pretty nice.

Well..., by that logic, Mirran Crusader does almost the same thing.

Mirran Crusader
Pro - block Goyf/Mongoose all day, can kill Liliana since BUG only has BG creatures. Clique/Snapcater/Goblin Guide/non-first strike creature falls to double strike.
Con - does not work against Burn.

Geist
Pro - almost burn proof, cannot be bounced by Jace
Con - not as effective in blocking Goyf or any creatures.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Is not playing Spell Pierce really not a huge issue for you (I mean this less as a question about tournament anecdotes, but more about "how the deck feels")? This may be more of a MODO phenomenon, but every time I cut Spell Pierce, I regret it. Various GBx garbage and combo decks, especially on the draw, have been very difficult for me without it. On the other hand, 3 copies have largely alleviated the feeling of clunkiness for me, if not just because it's been much easier to make it to the midgame relatively intact without having my hand torn apart by discard (or just dead to some combo). Has that just not been the case for you?

[twndomn]

If you're a fan of Spell Pierce, perhaps you should consider Joe Lossett's traditional Miracles. Spell Pierce is great in any combo-heavy Meta-game. In RiP version, those slots become Enlightened Tutors.

Joe's version also run 2 FoW and 2 Misdirection MD, that's such a.. trap. I bet he traps a lot of Jund/BUG. Misdirect Punishing Fire to a Dark Confidant/Deathrite Shaman... etc or Misdirect a Hymn (that's 2 for 3); maybe he's ahead of the curve here.

[Jakgotbak]

Well..., by that logic, Mirran Crusader does almost the same thing.

Mirran Crusader
Pro - block Goyf/Mongoose all day, can kill Liliana since BUG only has BG creatures. Clique/Snapcater/Goblin Guide/non-first strike creature falls to double strike.
Con - does not work against Burn.

Geist
Pro - almost burn proof, cannot be bounced by Jace
Con - not as effective in blocking Goyf or any creatures.

Hmm... Could be good. I never even thought about Crusader. One pro (and con sometimes) you left off Geist's list is that he's blue. Sometimes relevant (for better or worse).

Is not playing Spell Pierce really not a huge issue for you (I mean this less as a question about tournament anecdotes, but more about "how the deck feels")? This may be more of a MODO phenomenon, but every time I cut Spell Pierce, I regret it. Various GBx garbage and combo decks, especially on the draw, have been very difficult for me without it. On the other hand, 3 copies have largely alleviated the feeling of clunkiness for me, if not just because it's been much easier to make it to the midgame relatively intact without having my hand torn apart by discard (or just dead to some combo). Has that just not been the case for you?

I haven't really missed Spell Pierce, and I tend to love that card.

I hope I never sold myself as some kind of expert, by the way. I've played UW for a little while, but I've only played 20 matches with this particular build. I just had one really good tournament.

[Einherjer]

So has everybody ditched the Stoneforge Mystic - package? According to my testing a well timed/protected Mystic is very good vs Junddecks. In addition to this, it helped at the tempo-MU too. Obv. don't slam that Mystic on T2 but rather hold it until the Mid/lategame and win with it right on the spot. But there are ofc hands/MUs where a T2 protected Mystic just wins aswell... and remember, it's just 4 slots, the rest is Miracle, still.



A different point I'd like to bring up is the landcount. I've been playing 22 lands/Fetches+Basics+Duals +1 Karakas =23 for a long time now and I've been mostly happy with it. Last week I was talking to a good controlplayer I trust quite alot. He then said something along these lines:"In order to win you need to draw buisness, not lands --> that's why I play 21." --- Ok, at first glance this might look like a joke, but it might be too true. We have to keep in mind, that our Brainstorms aren't like Stoneblades Brainstorm, we can't like draw 3 and put 2 shit back and shuffle, because we rely on our Brainstorms to enable our Terminus/Angels. So playing a land or 2 less might not hurt too much? Well I was instantly trying and cut a Fetchland and went onto testing, mostly vs RUG and Jund. Obv. you can't say alot from limited testing as I did, only like 50 matches or stuff. I did not feel as confident as earlier dropping land for land until I just win. Sometimes I had to look for Lands with Top/Brainstorm, which shouldn't be the mainpoint. I think 22 effective Lands might just be perfect, therefore I thought about cutting the Karakas....

What are your peoples experiences with manabases? Do you like to play less lands, but only "realreal" ones or do you prefer to play more and fit in some Karakas/Ruins/Dust Bowl?

Greetings

[wizard_of_gore]

i'm happy with my 22 lands build, it works fine.... not so much combo and control in my meta, so i play hard counter base and load of removals because midrange creature decks are dominant on local tournaments...

3x stoneforge mystic
2x snapcaster mage

4x force of will
3x counterspell
4x swords to plowshares
4x brainstorm
3x terminus
1x supreme verdict
1x entreat the angels

3x counterbalance
1x detention sphere

3x jace the mind sculptor

1x batterskull
4x sensei's divining top
1x vedalken shackles

4x tundra
4x flooded strand
2x scalding tarn
2x flooded strand
1x tower of magistrate
5x island
2x plains
1x karakas
1x glacial fortress

sb: spell pierces, meddling mages, surgicals, disenchants, some path to exile or wog/verdict, back to basics...



Does anybody knows how good rip+helm combo is in countertop shell? is it main win condition or alternate way to win if someone disables your jace/batterskull ?

[alphastryk]

Funny story, on Saturday night, I went 1-3 in the Legacy Challenge, which included a loss to a Goblins player that burned me out from 17 after I resolved a turn 4 Moat. Sometimes you're not meant to win. (And, as it would seem, sometimes you're not meant to lose, no matter how ill-advised some people think your mulligan decisions are.)

The thing with Energy Field is that I just don't ever, under any circumstances, want to draw it. I don't want to be tempted to burn my Enlightened Tutor to get the Rest in Peace, only to get 3-for-1ed by someone blowing up the RiP. Against pretty much every deck, I have something else I'd rather tutor for; and if I've already drawn the RiP, and I'm looking to combo, I 100% of the time will go for the instant win with Helm. And I know you can always brainstorm away an extra combo piece, but our Brainstorms are already so overtaxed in game one - shuffling away the chaff or setting up miracles.

I figured cutting E Field would make random stuff like goblins harder, but not impossible, whereas the decks I was most concerned with were Jund, BUG, SnT, and to a lesser degree, Tin Fins. Cutting those two cards made room for another Entreat and a Venser, a decision I'm very happy I made. Also, for all the random stuff that E Field used to beat, more surprise angels is pretty good.

That all definitely makes sense to me, and I think playing only one Entreat like I did was a mistake, so there's that. Locally I feel like I run into enough decks that attack my mana enough that I can't helm them fast enough to not be dead, but energy field can buy a ton of time, so I'll stick with one copy for now.

As for Geist, he does a lot of work. He's great in the mirror and against Jund and BUG, but he's also just great when you're going to game 3 with 10 minutes left and you need to go aggro. And sometimes, you just need a body. I sided them in against UR Delver just to have something to trade with Goblin Guide, and it worked. I stabilized at 4 life after he played GG on turns 1 and 2. Also, he's a 3-drop for counterbalance, which is pretty nice.

I definitely understand the need for a body in some matchups, Meddling Mage does pull Grizzly Bears duty on occasion. I feel like for the most part if your opponents play at a reasonable pace you shouldn't be that low on the clock, but that's a valid consideration.

Is not playing Spell Pierce really not a huge issue for you (I mean this less as a question about tournament anecdotes, but more about "how the deck feels")? This may be more of a MODO phenomenon, but every time I cut Spell Pierce, I regret it. Various GBx garbage and combo decks, especially on the draw, have been very difficult for me without it. On the other hand, 3 copies have largely alleviated the feeling of clunkiness for me, if not just because it's been much easier to make it to the midgame relatively intact without having my hand torn apart by discard (or just dead to some combo). Has that just not been the case for you?

Spell Pierce has never been super impressive to me in any build of the deck - it's only relevant eary if you can also afford to leave up mana, and is an awful topdeck later (and we always want games to go late). I'm back to one copy right now, but I trimmed a Force of Will for it.

I'm not clear how it would help vs various GBx decks though. Liliana? I'm usually not very worried about discard, we can draw out of it fairly well with top and brainstorm, and top lets you play from outside your hand.

I've never felt like I needed help against combo either, but my board has more combo hate than most seem to.

So has everybody ditched the Stoneforge Mystic - package? According to my testing a well timed/protected Mystic is very good vs Junddecks. In addition to this, it helped at the tempo-MU too. Obv. don't slam that Mystic on T2 but rather hold it until the Mid/lategame and win with it right on the spot. But there are ofc hands/MUs where a T2 protected Mystic just wins aswell... and remember, it's just 4 slots, the rest is Miracle, still.

I've played a bunch with Stoneforge, and it really only improves good matchups and Goblins. RIP / EF is a better plan against Goblins, and RIP is insane against the field right now - everyone else uses the graveyard these days it seems like.

A different point I'd like to bring up is the landcount. I've been playing 22 lands/Fetches+Basics+Duals +1 Karakas =23 for a long time now and I've been mostly happy with it. Last week I was talking to a good controlplayer I trust quite alot. He then said something along these lines:"In order to win you need to draw buisness, not lands --> that's why I play 21." --- Ok, at first glance this might look like a joke, but it might be too true. We have to keep in mind, that our Brainstorms aren't like Stoneblades Brainstorm, we can't like draw 3 and put 2 shit back and shuffle, because we rely on our Brainstorms to enable our Terminus/Angels. So playing a land or 2 less might not hurt too much? Well I was instantly trying and cut a Fetchland and went onto testing, mostly vs RUG and Jund. Obv. you can't say alot from limited testing as I did, only like 50 matches or stuff. I did not feel as confident as earlier dropping land for land until I just win. Sometimes I had to look for Lands with Top/Brainstorm, which shouldn't be the mainpoint. I think 22 effective Lands might just be perfect, therefore I thought about cutting the Karakas....

What are your peoples experiences with manabases? Do you like to play less lands, but only "realreal" ones or do you prefer to play more and fit in some Karakas/Ruins/Dust Bowl?

I think 21-22 lands is right, and fill the other slots with more cantrips like Ponder and Portent to hit lands early and business late. Having extra cantrips also helps to take some pressue off of our already overloaded brainstorms. 22 means you can fit a utility colorless lands, 21 means you can't (my opinion). Karakas is too good to not play, it helps beat unfair decks (SnT, Reanimator) and helps vs Gaddock Teeg and Thalia, as well as your own Clique, Venser, etc.

Does anybody knows how good rip+helm combo is in countertop shell? is it main win condition or alternate way to win if someone disables your jace/batterskull ?

Insane. The primary wincon for me, followed by Entreat. Jace is tertiary (but helps you find / setup the others), creature beats is a last resort. Having access to an 'oops, I win' is very valuable in my experience. It's a big part of how the deck can steal wins in bad matchups, and actually is starting to make the deck feel a bit Vintage-y to me.