Hey guys. I've been watching the discussion develop over the past couple pages and while I'm not an experienced Thresh pilot, I've played with it in testing and lots against it.
From the combo player's perspective, jin is vastly underrating REB against storm combo. Brainstorm is at its filthiest & most degenerate in either Thresh or fast combo like storm, so REB'ing it can be devastating. Hitting early Ponders often will mean that they can't go off with protection (or at all) either by denying mana or pieces. Obviously it's good against Show and Tell as well. Spell Pierce is actually not that hard to play around as I'm sure many of you guys have experienced.
Snare is a very good card against most combo decks (exception being Sneak and Show) as well as every fair deck right now. Seems odd to not play a couple.
I'm surprised to see suggestions to play only 3 Daze in the main. Every time I test Thresh all I want to draw are Daze to pick up lands and Brainstorm to put them away.
Just my thoughts on some of the stuff. Definitely could be wrong, but thought it might help discussion.
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Agreed on everything. 4 Daze is definitely the correct choice for this deck, as is (at least currently) playing 2-3 Spell Snare. Not playing 2+ REB/Pyroblast in the SB is just bad.Originally Posted by phazonmuant
I actually had some time to test against UWr Miracles. Yes, they have some trumps (e.g. Rest in Peace + Energy Field, SFM -> Batterskull, SDT + Counterbalance, Elspeth), but as long as you can disrupt the chain via counterspells, your creatures and burn can generally close out before they can re-establish board control. Countering SDT is probably the most important thing to do in the early game, so if the choice on turn 1 is between leaving up Spell Pierce or deploying a threat, I'd probably opt for the former over the latter. The matchup didn't feel as hopeless as I would have expected.
Yep... This is all true. 4 Dazes can be clunky, especially if you end up with more than one and additionally if your opponent is playing around them. Yet in these scenarios, you can pitch them to FoW or Brainstorm them back and shuffle them away. If your opponent played around them, then they (the Dazes) essentially bought you time without costing you cards or mana. So the card may not do exactly what it says in the text box, but it is still gaining you some advantage, and as such is not truly dead.
My meta used to be flooded with Miracles of all flavors. It really isn't that bad. If you can stop a SDT, you are generally ahead by a good bit as our draws are better. Stifle is pretty awesome in this MU as it can stop Miracle triggers in addition to hindering land development. Both of these items are crucial for them to beat us. However, if you run Thought Scour and more burn (Chain Lightning), a la Saito, then you can probably burn them out. You also can mess with their Miracle tiggers, and Top stacking with your Scours. It can be a tough match up but it is very winnable. Vortex and REB/Pryo are pretty awesome out of the board. I usually have a Krosan Grip or two as well. There are a plethora of targets Counterbalance, Top, if you are playing the enchantment version, then Energy Field, and RiP, possibly Helm. So it is an all-star as well. Before the Helm-combo was all the rage and everyone was just using Jace and Entreat to win, I had 1-2 Echoing Truth in my board. Timed right, it can mean you opponent can't beat you with Jace, and 1-for-1's with Entreat. Since their deck is so light on threats, it can buy you a good bit of time, this is assuming that you are not lock out by Counter-Top/Efield-RiP. So Echoing Truth might be worht consideration if you are seeing a lot of the original Entreat-Jace builds. Additionally it is pretty funny/good against Dredge for Zombie tokens/Grave Trolls and Storm if they use Empty the Warrens. These are narrow considerations but other real decks where the card is good.
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Why would the miracle matchup feel hopeless?
Against a miracle version without Stoneforge you only have a couple of key-cards to worry about. Disrupting the manbase is usually not easily possible (and not necessary except spell pierce becomes awkward) but Stifle for RIP enter the battefield trigger or miracles is still a very valuable card. Not overcommiting, handling Jace, countering Entreat (or Terminus) + using Sulfuric Vortex - I feel comfortable with this matchup.
Edit: I have to be faster with my posts - damn you Sturtzilla.
Currently playing: Elves
On paper the Miracles looks pretty rough to unwinnable, but in practice we can typically just race them as long as we disrupt a key card here or there. Awesome thought on RiP enters battlefield trigger. I guess I knew that I could do that, but I never actually have. Probably a good thought to keep in mind if you are a Stifle version pilot.
I think the Enchanment version is a lot harder, as they have Jace, Entreat, RiP, EField, Counterbalance, Top, and Helm, which are all bad for us if they resolve. Spell Pierce and Daze gain us a lot of ground as do REB/Pyro and Vortex out of the board, but it is still tough because their density of spell that we need to counter is higher.
Sorry dude!Edit: I have to be faster with my posts - damn you Sturtzilla.
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I played with it for awhile and had some good results with those versions. I just felt that slots are too tight to throw Probe in, but if you do, it would be whatever slot Thought Scour fits. You are also safe with just 18 land (maybe even 17 if you run 3 and are a bit ballsy) since you don't need mana to cast Probe.
And regarding 4 Dazes, I never found myself wanting 4 Dazes. Opponents already play around Daze vs RUG Delver so you basically already have a Daze with you at all times, and while it has some value in shuffling away with Brainstorm or pitching to Force of Will, I would rather just use that last slot as a utility slot and actually use the card. I don't think it's absolutely wrong to play 4 Dazes, but that's just my experience with the card.
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The comparison was REB and Spell Pierce in the SB. If that's what we are still talking about, Spell Pierce still hits the cantrips you are talking about. No one is going to Dark Ritual into paying for Spell Pierce. I'm playing a Stifle version of Tempo Thresh, so I think I'd be choking them on mana. If not, I'm probably losing.
Furthermore, Spell Pierce hits Dark Rituals and Ad Nauseams where REB does not. I'm not underrating REB at all. I just feel that Spell Pierce does the same thing in this deck.
I played this list in an 18 man, 4 round event last night
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Fire//Ice
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Ponder
1 Vapor Snag
Sideboard
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Gilded Drake
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm
I went 4-0 and beat Jund twice, Esper Stoneblade and Monored Painter.
Card thoughts:
MVP: Nimble Mongoose. I had to spend $4 to buy the 4th one today. It was worth every cent.
Random thoughts about other cards:
Fire//Ice, Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt. Forked Bolt is ridiculously good in my meta. Fire//Ice is a natural progression because the instant speed is good when you wanna hold up Stifle mana all the time. Lightning Bolt was average. It kills stuff and goes to face for 1 mana. I guess you can't really complain
Vapor Snag. I've seen some people play a Dismember. I went for Vapor Snag. I did have an interesting play where I Vapor Snagged my own Goyf in a counter war. I didn't draw it very often; it feels like a flex slot.
Snapcaster Mage. I do like value, the versatility and certainly the idea of Snapcaster Mage. Unfortunately I never cast it. Once I was trying to set up 3 mana to use it, but they died before I could do that. Ooops.
Sulfur Elemental. These were Pyrostatic Pillars until I scouted and saw 3 Lingering Souls decks.
Sulfuric Vortex. Wow. This card is insanely good for when games go long. Pretty happy to side these in.
Congrats. How did you sideboard against each deck? How was the Jund match up particularly? Which was the toughest and how did 2 Ponders serve you? Seems kind of little.
I've never been a fan of snapcaster in this deck. You never have enough lands for a 3 drop. Maybe if you upped the Volcanic Island or Tropical Island count.
Thanks. Some more notes about the matches:
Round 1 - Jund with Punishing Grove
Sideboarding: -4 Force of Will, -2 Spell Pierce, +2 Submerge, +2 Surgival Extraction, +2 Sulfuric Vortex
Round 2 - Esper Stoneblade with Geist of Saint Traft
Sideboarding: -4 Stifle, -4 Force of Will, +2 Sulfur Elemental, +2 Sulfuric Vortex, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Grafdigger's Cage. (I sided out the Stifles because I know he'll most likely play around them)
Round 3 - Monored Painter
Sideboarding: -4 Stifle, +1 Sulfuric Vortex, +2 Ancient Grudge, + 1 Surgical Extraction. The various blood moon effects didn't really hinder me too much. Drawing Ancient Grudge also makes it feel like he can never combo you out.
Round 4 - Jund without Punishing Grove
Sideboarding: -4 Force of Will, +2 Sulfuric Vortex, +2 Submerge.
Against the Jund decks, they were pretty mana screwed. One game went long but Sulfuric Vortex cleaned up. In another, I got Choked, but he was low enough and I submerge to finish him off. I guess Jund was only a problem if I kept a weak hand and couldn't punish them, or I let Deathrite Shaman live.
I like Ponder, but it's one area I tend to skimp on if I wanna fit in some spicy stuff. I can definitely see the attration of playing the fullset, but it's not necessarily needed. I've thought about even playing Gitaxian Probe before the 3rd Ponder.
I never liked the Snapcaster version of RUG Delver when ISD came out. I like the idea, the value and the versatility of Snapcaster, but it is a bit hard to cast. I guess I also played it because I wanted more than 12 creatures. I did try to setup 3 mana for Snapcaster in one game vs Monored Painter, but I pitched it to a FoW to kill him when he tried to Pyroblast my Delver
Speaking of Goyf, we can all agree on the fact that Goyfs are or worst creatures in the deck. They suck versus combo as tapping out versus combo is a big mistake. They suck against decay decks and especially Jund as they can be so easily removed. I want an efficient beater. Has anyone else thought about another creature that can fill the Goyf slot?
Please... stop...
Even though Tarmogoyf might be suboptimal from time to time he is the friggen best creature we got for this slot. There are no alternatives, no shitty trolls, no shitty tigers or anything like this. Deal with it.
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Disliking goyf for beeing clunky in 1 drop deck is an "ok claim", but he is still by far the best option and there is no maindeck alternative to him. I played tons of games with him as a 3of and did well, but these days threat count is more important and I would recomment him as a 4of. Goyf is especially good versus red decks since his toughness is usually between 4 and 6. That the best red deck also runs decay sucks and is the reason so many people talk about this new player "Jund" in the meta, but Goyf is surely the 2nd best creature against Jund with Delver beeing the worst - Delver is also removed by a single fire and red-blast from the board.
If you are looking for another threat against Jund in the sideboard this has been discussed. Stuff like Sulfuric Vortex, Mire Boa and Plaxmanta have been tried out. Vortex has the potential to make the last 4-8 damage before they stabalize and is only answered by decay. If you are behind in life total you loose anyway so that would not be an argument against vortex, but you can't use the vortex like against UW decks where you kill them with almost even life total since they are able to make a lot of damage themselves, so it is weaker. Shutting down P. Fire is another nice addon in vortex's favour.
Exotic things like Mire-Boa, some trolls or uncastable Obstinate Baloth to hate on liliana are not an option for me since it is way too narrow and not useable against other decks. Especially because this supernarrow threats like the boa are not even immune to their hate. Punishing twice without enough regeneration mana or lili still take care of boa.
Plaxmanta is an old personal favourite of mine since it is good against UW decks and it won me a couple of games. My evaluation might be biased though since I don't like to remember the times where he did nothing.
After a lot of testing my group came to the conclusion that there is no "tech" that can turn that machup around. You have to rely on the old Stifle, Waste, Daze - screw them plan, but that does not work out more often than it will work. So then you have to accept that they run more removal than we run threats including recursion, uncounterability and edict while running their own tarmogoyfs to stall + having a good chance to play around Submerge.
Divert has some potential, but again does not change things significantly enough and is an otherwise dead SB slot.
I don't think the matchup is as bad as the Nic Fit matchup, but my guess is with a skilled pilot 65% in their favour.
Currently playing: Elves
I'm with you. No one is replacing Tarmogoyf. Cut Tarmogoyf, lose mirror. Actually, Tarmogoyf is sometimes a 4/5 against combo. You can play him a turn or 2 later. He ends games.
So... Goyf?
Historically, I've gone down to 3 Goyfs at times for more burn or counterspells, but right now it feels like 4 is the right amount definitely.
That said, I like to board out a Goyf in some matchups where threat density is less important (against Miracles for example).
Lowering your threat density makes their Swords to Plowshares better. I don't like that plan.
What I mean is, their Swords to Plowshare will hit all of your Delvers now. That seems annoying. I rather they plow some Tarmogoyfs so if they do land a Rest in Peace, I have some Delvers left to close out.
That seems... erroneous
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I can see boarding out goyf vs rest in peace
I can see wanting to keep goyf in vs counter balance
Against some decks, it can make sense to cut a Goyf or two. You need to properly evaluate which cards are going to be the weakest in any given matchup and cut accordingly. Especially if you are playing some number of Sulfur Elemental, you can easily justify cutting a Tarmogoyf or two for a threat that can be played EoT, is uncounterable, and impervious to grave hate.
I also play 19 lands, so sometimes the first card I cut is the 4th Wasteland against decks where it is less useful (e.g. UW Miracles, Elves, High Tide). Hell, against High Tide, I might even cut more.
Outside-the-box thinking is essential for proper sideboarding. There's a lot more to it than something as simple (and generally wrong) as 'cut Daze on the draw, and FoW on the play'.
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