[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[Richard Cheese]

For the record, Xantid swarm is probably poop. The reason I brought up Grand Abolisher is his unique ability to stop permanent hate. It hits: Top, DRS, Tormod's Crypt, Relic, etc. It may even stop Counterbalance itself (not sure on the rules, since it says "cant' activate abilities"...is this activated abilities or all abilities?). Not to mention, you can straight up win the game when he hits play, unlike swarm. But the price is probably too steep at WW.

Counterbalance is triggered so I think it won't get shut off, but Top will. I would assume a smart opponent would try to leave a 1 on top in that situation, which I guess we could still win through but it would be tough.

[Dark Ritual]

How do we combo through a counterbalance basically set at 1/chalice at 1? I honestly don't see how, outside of 4 lands + 4 petals hardcasting griselbrand. The amount of essential one drops in this deck is quite staggering. Or we have to draw up to 8 cards, pitch griselbrand, then shallow grave/goryo's vengeance him. Usually drawing up to 8 cards doesn't work so well in a deck that generally has under 5 cards in hand due to discard and entomb effects being cast early on.

The 4th goryo's vengeance is quite unneeded. Having reanimate or exhume in that slot is much better, as they get children back while goryo's vengeance does not, which is an issue sometimes when trying to combo out if you just draw all goryo's vengeances'.

Xantid swarm is not where this deck really wants to be. Doesn't solve counterbalance at all, and silence is usually superior. Card puts a strain on the mana too. Too bad we can't run bob due to the risk of flipping over certain 8 and 15 drops in our deck unless we straight up transformed into bob bitterblossom tendrils.dec postboard, where we go turn 1 bob, turn 2 blossom, turn 3 discard some of their stuffs and beatdown, turn 4 tendrils of agony.

[.dk]

For the record, Xantid swarm is probably poop. The reason I brought up Grand Abolisher is his unique ability to stop permanent hate. It hits: Top, DRS, Tormod's Crypt, Relic, etc. It may even stop Counterbalance itself (not sure on the rules, since it says "cant' activate abilities"...is this activated abilities or all abilities?). Not to mention, you can straight up win the game when he hits play, unlike swarm. But the price is probably too steep at WW.

Oh, completely agree. I wasn't suggesting adding bugs - i meant that Abolisher wouldn't be vulnerable and could be a good sideboard option for the same reason that bugs are good in TES.

Didn't mean to spur discussion about Xantid Swarm - was just using it as an analogy. It's trash in this deck.

[phazonmutant]

Teferi's Realm has hilarious applications with Batterskul. Also in case it's not obvious, it shuts off Chalice and 3ball if you name Artifacts, you can bin cards with Leyline of the Void / Rest in Peace phased out if you name Enchantment and they won't be exiled when they phase in, and it obviously shuts off Counterbalance. I'm liking this card a lot, although it seems pretty loose at first glance.


Richard Cheese is correct that Counterbalance still happens through Grand Abortionist.


Koby - grindy Bitterblossom Tendrils aggro? That sound awesome! All the more reason to have a pile of Chain of Vapors to board in. Now if only we had Necro to go along with our 2cc black threats and we'd have a standard deck

[Richard Cheese]

Teferi's Realm has hilarious applications with Batterskul. Also in case it's not obvious, it shuts off Chalice and 3ball if you name Artifacts, you can bin cards with Leyline of the Void / Rest in Peace phased out if you name Enchantment and they won't be exiled when they phase in, and it obviously shuts off Counterbalance. I'm liking this card a lot, although it seems pretty loose at first glance.


Richard Cheese is correct that Counterbalance still happens through Grand Abortionist.


Koby - grindy Bitterblossom Tendrils aggro? That sound awesome! All the more reason to have a pile of Chain of Vapors to board in. Now if only we had Necro to go along with our 2cc black threats and we'd have a standard deck

Also note that naming enchantments will cause it to phase itself out, so your opponent won't get to choose (if they get another turn).

I think it could actually not be terrible, providing we can make it stick.

[Freggle]

Teferi's Realm does everything except not get countered!

If you're going as deep as Teferi's Realm (which is cool) you might have luck with Devastation Tide, but a transformational board is likely better.

[Herjan]

Teferi's Realm has hilarious applications with Batterskul.

Sadly, doesn't work. Token permanents don't phase out with Teferi's Realm

I wonder if with probe in the deck now a Doomsday/Shelldock Isle transformational is possible.

[phazonmutant]

Sadly, doesn't work. Token permanents don't phase out with Teferi's Realm

I wonder if with probe in the deck now a Doomsday/Shelldock Isle transformational is possible.

Fair, I didn't specify. Naming artifact to phase out their Skull every turn is what I meant, sadly the Sapphire Charm trick doesn't work as you point out.

DD is certainly...more...reasonable. But that's not saying all that much. It looks like Dela is working on making that plan work. The list looks reasonable for that approach.

[catmint]

From my testing I still don't feel equipped well with anti-hate given there are many things that can come up. "Generic" answers like discard, silence, and bounce (decay) are generally better than more specific artifact or creature hate. You can be really attacked from a lots of different angles and I agree that if you are attacked from 2+ angels aka GY/permanent hate + counter/discard the %goes down a little too much for my taste, so I would like to theorycraft a little bit and talk about the underlying problems I see.

The thing about dredge (except for RIP, Leyline, Cage) is that even if hated, they don’t need to rely on anti-hate but their engine enables them to be a grindy aggro deck instead of the fast combo deck. Fins does not have this option. Also the available hate for Fins is much broader than for dredge (like burning the face or stupid stuff like needle on Griselbrand, canonist, Wasteland…).

So I have been testing the transform to man-plan not too extensively but enough to discard it. The thing is that people will have dead cards and/or board bad and keep some stupid removal in. Also, more important if you cast creatures, fair decks will do the same and will regularly trump you with their creatures/walkers/equipments/miracles. Especially if you have a medium start and not the god-hand. This experience also showed me that spending a couple of slots on alternative win-cons like Geist or Bitterblossom won’t bring you anywhere. This stuff will just get trumped, while diluting your deck more.

Coming back to anti-hate: It is an uphill battle by nature. You need a “2 card combo” + a certain life total and a 1-2 pieces of anti-hate to fight their 1-2 pieces of hate. The first problem you have is that for the deck hating us they can keep many different hands and dig for many different answers. 2 Spell Pierce and a brainstorm might be as good for an opposing deck as 1 Thoughtseize and 1 Surgical or 1 Rip and 1 Force of Will. So besides of the hate significantly outnumbering the anti-hate they do not need specific hate whereas we need specific anti-hate depending on which hate they bring to the table. Compare that again to dredge – having a bunch of counterspells might do nothing if they Draw-discard-dredge. Or compare it to TES where they toolbox for permanent hate without diluting the maindeck + are very often able to ignore gravehate/life-total and their natural maindeck setup fights the “counterspell-hate” already very effectively.

Now it is of course not easy going times for Dredge either, but I like the comparison because it shows what Finn’s lacking compared to when Dredge was strong. (TES is still strong to me by the way, but not an option unless you really master it).

So with this analysis which fits my experience of losing too much, my conclusions is that transforming is the way to go. Painter stone or RIP Helm look very funny – both taking advantage of enlightened tutor and silence as white protection comes naturally. Both option ignore GY hate & lifetotal + the redundancy (+ cantrips) as well as discard and silence make you equipped much better against opposing disruption. The surprise factor will also just randomly win games, which is what you want from the deck right? More white in the manabase and a maindeck that suits the transform would be necessary of course.

Happy to hear why people think anti-hate will get them there and results of successful transform tests are most welcome.

[Richard Cheese]

Fair, I didn't specify. Naming artifact to phase out their Skull every turn is what I meant, sadly the Sapphire Charm trick doesn't work as you point out.

DD is certainly...more...reasonable. But that's not saying all that much. It looks like Dela is working on making that plan work. The list looks reasonable for that approach.

If I'm reading this right, they wouldn't get their germ token back though:

702.24d The phasing event doesn’t actually cause a permanent to change zones or control, even though it’s treated as though it’s not on the battlefield and not under its controller’s control while it’s phased out. Zone-change triggers don’t trigger when a permanent phases in or out. Counters remain on a permanent while it’s phased out. Effects that check a phased-in permanent’s history won’t treat the phasing event as having caused the permanent to leave or enter the battlefield or its controller’s control.

Also no exile trigger for RiP, and possibly some other relevant stuff?

[H]

If I'm reading this right, they wouldn't get their germ token back though:

They would not. Even better is if they have a Batterskull on a Germ and you choose creatures to phase out. The Germ phases and the Batterskull does as well, indirectly; the Germ ceases to exist and so the Batterskull itself, which has nothing to return attached to, is exiled permanently.

[Koby]

They would not. Even better is if they have a Batterskull on a Germ and you choose creatures to phase out. The Germ phases and the Batterskull does as well, indirectly; the Germ ceases to exist and so the Batterskull itself, which has nothing to return attached to, is exiled permanently.

"At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player chooses artifact, creature, land, or non-Aura enchantment. All nontoken permanents of that type phase out."

[H]

"At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player chooses artifact, creature, land, or non-Aura enchantment. All nontoken permanents of that type phase out."

Ugh, sorry, that's what I get for figuring I knew what the card did and not checking.

[kihachi]

Is this still a decent deck to bring to Indy? I'm worried about the added exposure just like everyone else, but I still think a lot of decks will try to just bring in three Surgical Extractions against it and think they have its number.

I'm toying with the sideboard but currently not running white in the deck, so all I have is a combination of Massacre, extra Thoughtseizes, Abrupt Decay, Pithing Needle and Spell Pierce. Not sure if any non-white cards would be good. Chain of Vapor seems redundant with Decay and hard to fit in after I bring in 4 Decays and 3 Spell Pierces.

[ThomasDowd]

I may work on a doomsday(SI) board this weekend. I think it is good enough vs things you hate: rest in peace and CB. i always boarded it in with doomsday versus those slow decks and very rarely lost, even just jamming multiple doomsdays. it's pretty nice. you could maybe play a lab maniac but as it stands it is only 5 spots which is nice and compact enough to be reasonable, adding lab maniac makes things tighter.

I really do like grand abolisher and think he is a boss with 6+ actual white sources he shouldn't be too crazy to cast and he does beat down for 2.

will report back with results later in the weekend. all theory and massaging numbers in the 75. no physical playtesting, maybe after Monday I'll have some real games in.

I do like the degeneracy of the deck though and beating mild grave hate seems relatively easy.

How have probes been? i am skeptical in a deck where you want to be at 15 most of the time so you get two activations with griselbrand to 22 them( w/cthulu and gris) or kill them on the spot with tendrils. The info is king and having it cycle for free is pretty useful, i guess probe + fetch is only putting you to 17 and then a thoughtseize puts you to exactsies 15.

[phazonmutant]

Is this still a decent deck to bring to Indy? I'm worried about the added exposure just like everyone else, but I still think a lot of decks will try to just bring in three Surgical Extractions against it and think they have its number.

I'm toying with the sideboard but currently not running white in the deck, so all I have is a combination of Massacre, extra Thoughtseizes, Abrupt Decay, Pithing Needle and Spell Pierce. Not sure if any non-white cards would be good. Chain of Vapor seems redundant with Decay and hard to fit in after I bring in 4 Decays and 3 Spell Pierces.

Very sure white is worth it. Silence is very good against both combo decks and tempo decks. Gotta be able to play through the Pierces, Stifles, Dazes, etc. Pull from Eternity also pulls its weight as a generic anti-hate.

Don't play Pierce. Don't play Pierce. Don't play Pierce. We've talked about this, don't play Pierce. Also Chain is much better than AD against anything that's not Chalice or Counterbalance.

I may work on a doomsday(SI) board this weekend. I think it is good enough vs things you hate: rest in peace and CB. i always boarded it in with doomsday versus those slow decks and very rarely lost, even just jamming multiple doomsdays. it's pretty nice. you could maybe play a lab maniac but as it stands it is only 5 spots which is nice and compact enough to be reasonable, adding lab maniac makes things tighter.

I really do like grand abolisher and think he is a boss with 6+ actual white sources he shouldn't be too crazy to cast and he does beat down for 2.

will report back with results later in the weekend. all theory and massaging numbers in the 75. no physical playtesting, maybe after Monday I'll have some real games in.

I do like the degeneracy of the deck though and beating mild grave hate seems relatively easy.

How have probes been? i am skeptical in a deck where you want to be at 15 most of the time so you get two activations with griselbrand to 22 them( w/cthulu and gris) or kill them on the spot with tendrils. The info is king and having it cycle for free is pretty useful, i guess probe + fetch is only putting you to 17 and then a thoughtseize puts you to exactsies 15.

Cool, let us know how Doomsday works out. How does Lab Maniac help against Rest in Peace though? Grand Abortionist seems good in this matchup too.

Probes have been very, very solid. I love having the information and as insignificant as a straight-up cantrip seems, it does help the consistency a fair bit.

The difference in percentages of whiffing on drawing 21 vs. drawing 14 don't actually seem that large. I almost always kill on 14 cards, so the lifeloss isn't a huge deal. The added consistency in finding the combo is worth it to me.

[ThomasDowd]

Very sure white is worth it. Silence is very good against both combo decks and tempo decks. Gotta be able to play through the Pierces, Stifles, Dazes, etc. Pull from Eternity also pulls its weight as a generic anti-hate.

Don't play Pierce. Don't play Pierce. Don't play Pierce. We've talked about this, don't play Pierce. Also Chain is much better than AD against anything that's not Chalice or Counterbalance.




Cool, let us know how Doomsday works out. How does Lab Maniac help against Rest in Peace though? Grand Abortionist seems good in this matchup too.

Probes have been very, very solid. I love having the information and as insignificant as a straight-up cantrip seems, it does help the consistency a fair bit.

The difference in percentages of whiffing on drawing 21 vs. drawing 14 don't actually seem that large. I almost always kill on 14 cards, so the lifeloss isn't a huge deal. The added consistency in finding the combo is worth it to me.

you just cast him. maintain priority and cast a brainstorm, you build a stack that wins in like 2-3 turns with some disruption which is fine versus the control decks. it's probably pretty bad. since it costs 4+ mana.

also i meant drawing 14 before attacks so you can hit more pieces to emrakul and just kill them in the swing instead of having to tendrils them. both lines i'm sure are just as lethal.

[lordofthepit]

I may work on a doomsday(SI) board this weekend. I think it is good enough vs things you hate: rest in peace and CB. i always boarded it in with doomsday versus those slow decks and very rarely lost, even just jamming multiple doomsdays. it's pretty nice. you could maybe play a lab maniac but as it stands it is only 5 spots which is nice and compact enough to be reasonable, adding lab maniac makes things tighter.

What kind of Doomsday package would you bring in and try to create against Rest in Peace? Emrakul? It seems like RiP cuts off a lot of the good storm options.

[phazonmutant]

you just cast him. maintain priority and cast a brainstorm, you build a stack that wins in like 2-3 turns with some disruption which is fine versus the control decks. it's probably pretty bad. since it costs 4+ mana.

also i meant drawing 14 before attacks so you can hit more pieces to emrakul and just kill them in the swing instead of having to tendrils them. both lines i'm sure are just as lethal.

I think you're missing something. Even if you swing with Griselbrand, you can still kill them before they untap without casting Tendrils. As long as you can sac Children of Korlis at least twice and have Emrakul available to shuffle your graveyard into your library, you can gain infinite life and mana and then just cast Emrakul, take another turn, and attack. In my experience, you're very likely to be able to find a way to make Children with 14 cards, and once you do that, you're likely to find another way in another 14 cards, and from there it's cake.

It takes a lot longer in gametime, but that really shouldn't be an issue.

[Kryptor]

I have a question about the number of enablers (entomb).

This deck is only runs 4 entomb to get a creature in graveyard (with 2 Grizz the discard option is very rare). While testing i had often the problem that 4 entomb are not enugh and even with 4 bs and 4 ponder i am not able to find one.

I am not sure but maybe 1 - 2 burried alive or intuition helps ?

Does anyone else have this problem ?