Chalice of the Void and Devastating Dreams haven't been generally good maindeck inclusions since 2007 or so. Chalice in particular does not seem hot in a world of Abrupt Decays.
Also, Show and Tell is a "supposed to lose" matchup. Aggro Loam doesn't have the right combination of speed and disruption to actually race them.
Chalice is actually a lot better maindeck than you give it credit for here. You can set it on 0 to get free game one wins against Storm decks, for example, whereas post-board they'll bring in Chain of Vapors and Abrupt Decays. Also, Chalice@1 is still big game against Esperblade in particular, but also the whole Delver school of decks.Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
And if you run into BUG Delver, and they have anything resembling a mana base left, -and- they Decay your Chalice? Well, that's a Decay they aren't using on a Countryside Crusher or a Tarmogoyf, which is still acceptable.
So I mean....sure, Chalice isn't quite the monster that it used to be pre-Decay, but the same can be said of all kinds of cards (Counterbalance coming immediately to mind). That doesn't mean that it's actively bad. Absolute worst case scenario it lightning rods for one of your threats. Best case scenario, they don't have the answer for it and you just obliterate them.
Worst case scenario is you can't run any one-drops of your own. I think the format has evolved past the point where not doing so is a defensible idea.
I mean, Deathrite and Bolt are both important early and mid-game cards in a lot of matchups, while Grim Lavamancer gives you outs to your opponent's DRS. People really, really overestimate the rate at which turn one Chalice at one happens, as well as the usefulness of casting Chalice as the game goes on. The longer you wait to cast Chalice vs. blue, the more likely they are to be able to just straight-up counter it; every Brainstorm they resolve between their first turn and when you actually stick Chalice@1 puts you that much further behind. I would rather run a battery of proactive cards than one random reactive one that doesn't synergize well with my overall plan, is imminently answerable, and is really variably useful in a lot of matchups.
Also, land, land, Mox Diamond, Chalice, three cards is not usually conducive to forming a good opening seven. If you have three other good cards you have the Nut Draw, and I would not want to bank on getting that.
No worries, I can find the other thread :)
Legacy:
Combo Elves
WB Tokens
Cheeri0s
Chalice is and always will be solid. It stops so many relevant cards in legacy. I certainly feel that in the current meta, chalice could be main or sideboard. It all depends on how you want to play it. If you want your first game to be explosive then you play the chalices in the side bc deathrite certainly adds more to the table the first game. Then you bring in chalice to replace the drs, i've even read from Antonius that he doesn't even board them out sometimes haha... But on some stuff that was recently posted:
Lightning Bolts is very good but keep in mind of chalice, that's why i actually prefer 4 punishing fires, and the fact that you reoccur them is really good. This deck lets you filter fast enough to get multiple copies to use them for the punishing combo. PF also gets around chalice.
Abrupt decay should be a 3 or 4 of, The reason I feel for that is because they just make this deck more anti control lol...
I agreed with a post before that devastating dreams is not as good main as it is sideboard.
Aggro Loam; I feel is good right now, I run ensnaring bridges in my sideboard against show n tell decks but im going to probably play angel of despair. Against combo you can still run thorns....
4 color aggro loam used to be very good but I think it's too slow right now. The latest thing i've been testing is bringing back burning wish in the main...
I'll post a list when I figure something I can play.
What are everyone's thoughts on the 4-Color Aggro Loam list that was in Top 4 of SCG Indy yesterday? How good is it? Does it have a place in the current meta? Would you make any changes to the deck?
Link? Too lazy to search for myself.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=53930
Alternatively
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...m_with_je.html
It's less aggresssive (less creatures) than the usual Aggro Loam, but with more control elements.
EDIT: Obviously better against Sneak and Show due to Knight & Karakas compared to RGB, which seems good right now.
One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
Jeff's list ran no Knights, Goyfs, or Crushers. I would be hesitant to call it "Aggro" at all.Oops, the direct link from the Topdecks shows the partial list.
I like the KotR inclusion, but the lack of Goyfs or Seismic Assault (and in place PFires) makes me think this is more control oriented than aggro. Congrats to Jeff on his finish!
West side
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It seemed when I was watching the 4C build go, he wasn't "fast" enough, if that makes sense. It was basically DRS or bust (but the other guy didn't seem to run Mox, or maybe he did but I didn't see them):
This is what I'll be trying in the next little bit:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf/Liliana/something
3 Countryside Crusher
2 Terravore
16
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
2 Sylvan Library
3 Punishing Fires
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Mox Diamond
21
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
2 Taiga
3 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
25
I still don't like this deck right now due to being a DOG to combo. I know you can make it better, but it's still pretty boo. So many different types of Combo in the format as well.
-Matt
Probably about 90% of Aggro Loam's issues with combo stem from it being a Life from the Loam deck. The architecture required to make an engine card like Loam worth it means you don't actually have that much room to do things combo decks actually care about.
The remaining 10% comes from not having enough blue cards to support Force of Will.
4c Aggro Loam seems exceptionally greedy for marginal benefit, but I guess there weren't enough tempo decks in the meta to punish him for it. If that's the case, then just playing a pile of good cards tends to be good enough.
The pilot of the deck made a report on Reddit, you can read it (and his follow up comments to questions) here: http://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comme...g_indy_report/
Here's a copy/paste of the report itself straight from reddit for easy reading:
This comment was hidden due to downvotes but it challenged Jeff on the combo matchup:Howdy All,
This is a report from the SCG Legacy open in Indy this past weekend that had over 300 people – I finished third. You can find my deck list with a deck tech here.
I’ve posted a few things around here before. I’m what you could call a Midwest grinder, this makes for my third SCG Open top 8 (second in legacy). I’ve also top 64’d an SCG invitational and have too many top 64s on the open circuit to count at this point (I’m also really good at x-2ing modern PTQs). I enjoy playing decks that allow me to confuse the other player slightly with some non-standard card choices.
Round 1 – No Side Board Burn
Sometimes rounds 1-2 can be a bye at these things. My round one opponent sat down across from me and set his deck face up on the table for all to see – Chain Lightning. We shuffle and cut, my opening 7 is perfect – two land, mox diamond, chalice of the void and three cards that aren’t terrible relevant. He wins the die roll and bolts me to 17, I untap and slam a chalice on one. The game ends a few turns later after I stick a Knight.
Game 2, I mulligan till I have a turn 2 chalice. Thing go as planned.
1 – 0
Round 2 – Adam Prosak with ANT
This is one of those times where keeping up with the SCG circuit paid off. Prosak sits down across from me and I put him on ANT even though I haven’t seen him play yet today. I win the die roll and mulligan aggressively on the play, I get a chalice in my 5 card hand. He cabal therapies me on his turn one and I see his eyes get wide when he sees my turn 2 chalice (he missed with the therapy). A few turns later I beat him down with a Knight.
Game 2. I probably should have mulliganed some more. I also miss-sideboarded and brought in both my thoughtseize by mistake. I might have been able to pull this game out if I had left a thoughtseize in my SB to burning wish for on turn 3.
Game 3. I act like a good magic player and mulligan aggressively again – I am rewarded for my troubles. I go to 5 on the play again, but this time I have three land, chalice and a mox diamond. I chalice for one on turn 1 and pass, my next two draws are Knight, followed by a second chalice which I promptly place on zero. He dies 4 turns later to a 5/5 Knight.
2 – 0
Round 3 – RUG Delver
I don’t recall the exact specifics of our game 1 – I just remember he didn’t have a threat in his opening hand, shuffled a bunch of ponders and later had his Goyf get out raced by my Knight. Game two he kept a greedy one lander and opted to play a delver on turn one. I promptly wastelanded him and then killed his delver a couple of turns later with a punishing fire. He didn’t make a second land drop till at least turn 6 – far too late.
3 – 0
Round 4 – Camera Match with Goblins
Variance caught up with me in game one of this match. I have one land in my 7 and then no lands in my 6, 5, and 4 card hands. I keep my four because I am on the draw. I lose to a bunch of goblins a few turns later with only one land in play.
Games two and three I Devastate his Dreams – in the most literal sense. I’ve yet to lose a match to goblins with this list – and this round was no exception. I stick a knight and cast DD for 3+ cards at least once in both of the last games. In game two I killed him in one shot with a 19/19 Knight.
4 – 0
Round 5 – Maverick
He wins the die roll and I mulligan to 6. He leads out with cavern of souls on humans into Nobel Hiarch. I draw my card for the turn and decide to be aggressive. I play a land, drop a mox diamond and cast devastating dreams for 1 on my first turn. The three cards in my hand when I discard one at random are two lands and a dark confidant. I manage to keep my dark confidant. His second turn he drops a wasteland and passes – I know I am in good shape. Confidant draws me too many cards before he can find his way to colored mana.
Game 2. We have this really awkward board stall that I can’t find a DD to break. I did however draw all four Knights – they ran him over.
5 - 0
Round 6 – Alex Binek with UWr Control
Binek is a good friend of mine and we are one of the only top tables not called over to the feature match area. I can only describe our match as a grindy 50 minute troll fest. I had some very timely abrupt decays to kill his counter balances and a RIP in game one. In the second game I was able to bait a FoW with a dark confidant and then stick a game winning devastating dreams. I always hate beating a friend so late in an event, but it all worked out because Binek won his next two to make top 8 with me.
6 - 0
Round 7 – Eric Riley with NO Elf Ball
Eric is a very good player – he has top 8s under his belt wielding his legacy weapon of choice (Elves). Thankfully creature decks without counter magic have a VERY poor DD match up. Not going to lie, I miss played a LOT in our first game (but hey, this was my 18th round of magic in 48 hours), but my punishing fires are able to get me there.
Game 2. I messed up again – I forget that elf ball now plays NO as a finisher. I boarded out my Gaddock Teeg. Whoops. He kills me very dead with a Progenitus while I fail to find white mana for the Retribution of the Meek I found with my burning wish.
Game 3. I fix my side boarding mistake and bring back in my main deck Sir Teeglesworth along with my sideboard copy. On the play I put him into a “soft lock” with double chalice on 1 into Teeg. I eventually beat him down with my bear.
7 – 0
Rounds 8/9
The next two rounds I ID with RUG delver and twelve post. These are both fairly good matchups and I want them in the top 8 with me. Swiss record 7 – 0 – 2. I’ve only dropped three games all day – one of which I mulliganed out of. I’m feeling good. Entering top 8 as the third seat, which means I get to play in the quarter finals.
Quarter Finals – Twelve Post
This matchup isn’t close – watch the camera coverage if you don’t believe me. Game one I have turn 1 dark confidant off of a wasteland and a mox diamond. Game two I’m not nearly as explosive, but my opening 7 has two wastelands, two other lands and a loam in it. He mulliganed to six and didn’t get to do much that game. It ended with no permanents on his side of the table. His deck has three pithing needles main deck and a fourth in the board. I’m not sure why he didn’t mulligan more to find one – I’m not sure I’d have won if that had been his turn 1 play naming wasteland.
Semi Finals – Binek Again
We prize split the top 4. I was fairly giddy with excitement, lack of sleep, and my twentieth round of magic in 48 hours. I don’t think I should really call what Binek and I played on camera magic though. It really resembled more a game of soccer where he and I punted a ball back and forth to each other. I haven’t checked the twitter feedback yet from that match – but I’m sure it isn’t very kind. He punted game one to me, I punted game two to him and game three he helm combo’d me out of the game. The entirety of the match myself, Binek and the handful of judges remaining were laughing pretty hard while Alex and I trolled each other in both subtle and obvious ways. Easily the most fun I’ve had playing magic ever.
Wrap Up
So over all I went 8 – 1 – 2 in matches for the day. I was pleased with my play for most of the day and I have a nice check coming in the mail to pay for future magical trips.
Thanks for reading this wall of text – feel free to drop any questions below as comments.
I was really happy with my 75 all day. Going into a diverse field of match ups I believe I would play the same list again in a heart beat. That being said - I do tweak based on the meta game I expect. For instance if I am expecting more grindy/fair decks I generally cut the second GSZ for a Volrath's Stronghold for more late game creatures. A Scavaging Ooze also bounces in and out of the 75 based on how many graveyard decks are running around and the number of creatures seeing play.
Cheers,
~Jeff Hoogland
WHOA. Holy scoops to combo batman. Didn't we establish that combo is on the rise again? It seems like you lucked out in who you were paired against.
I'm not trying to be a hater, but wouldn't you rather play a deck that beats more of the field?
EDIT: I don't see why I'm getting hated on. Chalice of the Void is good for crushing RUG and ANT, but it doesn't stop TinFins nor any Show and Tell decks. Thalia and Teeg are good, but you need more than 2x discard spells out of the SB to back up one's hatebears.
You automatically lose to half of the SCG Las Vegas Legacy top decks (it applies if you count the top 16 OR the top 8).
This kind of non traditional combo (which dodges Chalice) is today's boogeyman. Playing a deck that scoops to this type of combo game one and doesn't hit 50% win rate in games two and three seems like a very bad choice to me. The only way one could be immensely victorious with your deck is if you don't get paired against those decks. Hence, my harsh statement about your pairing luck.Erm... Chalice is a decent card against almost EVERY deck in that top 8. The only one it doesn't directly stop is S&S, but it does turn off every cantrip in their deck making have to draw their combo naturally.
And even then they have to use Sneak Attack or fear getting blown out by knight or karakas. And they generally need 2+ red sources past that.1.) Legacy is very much about your match ups. This is true regardless of what you play - they all have good, bad and in-between match-ups.
2.) As mentioned already the main deck sports 4 chalice of the void possible to power out on turn 1.
3.) Gaddock Teeg is good VS a number of combo decks.
4.) KotR+Karakas isn't bad VS Sneak and Show.
5.) Wasteland is a card.
6.) Thaila is a house.
I actually liked his list a bit, I feel like Chalices and mass land destruction are actually pretty decent ways to deal with combo, the one thing I really, really dislike though is burning wish. I feel like Burning Wish is a trap. 99% of the time I feel like he's going to be wishing for Loam, discard, or devastating dreams. I think the whole surgical extraction angle can be argued..
I dunno, not exactly sure. Discard + Chalices + mass land destruction is a good way to beat fast combo, and the Knights + Karakas are a great way to beat SnT / Reanimator combo. I guess I can see how Burning Wish is generally good in the decks that can ramp up quickly with the moxen. Having 3 mana turn 2 lets you BW into Thoughtseize.
Furthermore, Chalices on 1 are the only thing you give a damn about. The one biggest problem I had playing aggro loam previously was that, I'd get a crusher down or a terravore, and it would just get plowed or bolted.
I really, really dislike the lack of inclusion of seismic assault though. That card is probably too good to pass up, but I suppose with his ultra-greedy mana base maybe he just can't swing paying triple red.
*EDIT* In regards to the reddit response: How exactly does a chalice on one not completely blow tin fins out? Besides all of the other ways to completely blow that deck out? Their ways of getting Griselbrand into the graveyard are: entomb, thoughtseize, cabal therapy. All of those cost one. They have absolutely no answer to a turn 1 chalice. They literally have to be on the play and have the turn 1 kill twice to beat chalice, or most any other deck that doesn't completely suck.
Well, there's a reason that the reddit response was downvoted into oblivion, haha
They just draw up to 8 and discard their griselbrand. Then reanimate it next turn. If Chalice hits turn 1 then then can still go off turn 2 by discard, LP, land, and shallow grave. Granted they can't children or entomb the Emrakul but they still draw enough cards to shape their hand for the next few turns.
Also, I'm not sure why he scooped to the helm combo, the guy had a fetch out.. Just waste the fetch. I could be wrong(?) but if he draws into the helm he wouldn't have the mana to activate it that turn and he could have untapped to blow up the RIP.
I actually don't like the use of Chalice and mass land destruction, especially considering the latter comes in the form of Devastating Dreams. Dreams is not really castable unless you have a threat that will survive it already in play, and/or some number of Moxen to ensure you can continue to cast your spells. I originally dropped Dreams from my lists (years ago) because the random discard screwed me more often than it ended up being okay.
Also, going the Chalice + LD plan still leaves you short on ways to interact. You can't use Dreams and hatebears because the former will kill the latter; I guess you could argue that the hatebears hold the fort until you can Dreams their lands away and then you use the threat that survives to win, but this smacks too much of "everything is going right" to be really convincing to me. Chalice also conflicts with discard for the matchups where Chalice is actually not that good. Finally, a weak four-color manabase means you will lose some games to combo that you might otherwise have won simply because your mana wasn't cooperative.
If you drop Chalice you can run a full sideboard suite of Duress, Thoughtseize, and Hymn to Tourach and/or other, non-discard ways to hurt specific decks (possibly REB/Pyro, but eh). That still doesn't fix the fact that Loam is fundamentally a dog to combo decks, but it makes you less goldfish-y.
One last thing: Thalia seems really bad in an Aggro Loam deck. I mean, you don't want to be casting Loams in games 2 and 3 anyway vs. combo, but you still have a deck chock full of lands that you can't side out - especially with a Wishboard limiting your "real" sideboard space to ~8 slots or so.
Hey so this is my first time posting, but i have followed the thread for quite some time and aggro loam variants have been my competitive decks for about 2.5 years now. Played this list last night at a small 15 event, highly competitive meta.
X4 bob
X2 ooze
X3 crusher
X3 seismic assault
X4 abrupt decay
X4 life from the loam
X4 mox diamond
X1 maelstrom pulse
X3 Thoughtseize
X4 Lightning bolt
X2 Liliana
X4 wasteland
X4 wooded foothills
X3 bloodstained mire
X2 badlands
X2 bayou
X3 taiga
X6 cycle lands
1 volrath's stronghold
1 mountain
sb:
x3 REB
Hullbreach
x2 Damnation
x2 Maelstrom Pulse
x3 Chalice of the void
Raven's Crime
x3 Hymms
I went 3-0 with a draw in the 4th round into top 4. Did not drop a game in the tourny
Round 1 MUD:
Game 1: I felt bad, turn one mox into thoughseize for metal worker with a wasteland for his land. Them loam engine to keep him off lands, kill him shortly after with crusher and seismic
Game 1: not one wasteland but i thoughtseize his metalworker, he eventually plays loadstone golem and i lightning bolt it away with an active liliana... died from a seismic soon after
Boarded in the hull breach for the games, although i didnt really need to
Round 2 U/R Delver:
Game 1: Slow game? he kills many of my creatures before they can get above a 3/3 and forces a seismic. I end up putting crusher back on my library with volrath's and that finished him off
Sb: +3 chalice +2 Pulses -1 Bob -1 lighning bolt -3 thoughtseize....
Game 2: I have answers all game, he countered my turn 1 chalice, then i drew all 3 lightning bolts at some point and 3 abrupt decays and 2 pulses.. The game dragged on and he couldnt stick anything then i landed an ooze and crusher and it was over
Round 3 Bug Delver
He had a tombstalker list so this MU was a little worrisome but just went into it thinking i would keep him off lands
Game1: Turn one bob, he plays underground sea and shamana. I bolt shaman, waste his underground sea. Keep him off lands until i can just go on the attack and end the game.
No sideboard changes
Game2: Just a grindy game of both of us providing answers until i land a sesimic and can finish him off. Note, played around Surgical extractions
The deck was great yesterday and I had very winnable matchups. I like a more control aspect to this deck, why i have fewer creatures. We split top 4. This build has been great for me, having liliana is great in just about any matchup and as long as you are smart about how you play the deck, the liliana/seismic mana stretch is not awful at all. I toy with the sb a lot thats why the damnations were in there, they are normally faerie macabre's.
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