[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[.dk]

I actually bought a set of Corpse Dance a while back for that purpose, but never got around to testing it. Could be ok, but it makes Dark Ritual a bit less insane since you need another mana source. Probably worth testing it though.

[sdematt]

Welcome...to the real world (of Established Decks).

-Matt

[Megadeus]

This is cool to see no doubt

[Richard Cheese]

I actually bought a set of Corpse Dance a while back for that purpose, but never got around to testing it. Could be ok, but it makes Dark Ritual a bit less insane since you need another mana source. Probably worth testing it though.

Yeah I have a feeling the mana cost is going to make it a no-go. Still, my philosophy with this deck has always been "test it and see".

[kihachi]

I think you all are right that siding out Tendrils is better than Emrakul. The only thing that makes me wary of doing so is that if I need a Griselbrand attack to draw 7 more cards in search of a Children or Entomb to go off, I'm gonna have to hardcast Emrakul to win. Doable, just a PITA after you've done it once or twice. But again, many people will just scoop to you on your second or third game combo anyway. And laziness is no good reason to sideboard suboptimally.

As for the sideboard I still advocate for a mix of reactive cards and Show and Tells, but people who've been playing the deck longer than me are very against S&T. All I can say is what worked/works for me.

And to additional reanimation spells, I actually like Reanimate more than Corpse Dance. You can't go off the same with it as your initial reanimation spell but for me it still gets there a lot of times. And it grabs Children on the cheap, of course.

But I could see testing:
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Corpse Dance
1 Reanimate

I may goldfish that on Cockatrice a handful of times. Being able to cast the Entomb and reanimation spell off one Dark Ritual seems too good to ignore, but you can always Entomb EOT into Dark Rit for Corpse Dance the next turn.

[.dk]

I'm not convinced that Show and Tell is wrong out of the board for lists that are packing 4 Griselbrands and an Emrakul. Or possibly boarding in the rest of the set if you aren't running them all main. Its a very valid strategy that many decks don't have an answer to.

Just remember, as far as the sideboard goes - no one has yet figured out anything optimal. There has been success with various different sideboard strategies. I personally wouldn't rule much out, as far as sideboard strategies go. Some of that is going to depend on the meta that you're playing in too...

[Koby]

This is just from initial testing, but Lim-Dul's Vault is a good "digger" for those games when we're having trouble finding Entomb/Reanimation/Dark Ritual/whatever.

I'm going to incorporate 2 LDV in place of 2 Gitaxian Probes in my Vegas list for further testing. I may also swap the 2nd Chrome Mox for the 3rd Probe. It really is lousy seeing a Chrome Mox in the opening hand, so I'm inclined to cut one and play something similar to ANT in terms of mana base.

[kihachi]

I don't think there ever is an "optimal" sideboard, is there? Though with this deck the opponents' hate is pretty obvious so maybe we can come close. If I'm running green, would Ground Seal be a decent card for game three if they're bringing in Surgicals?

Koby - funny that you should mention LDV and Chrome Mox because now that I think of it, LDV actually makes Chrome Mox a lot better in the deck. Card DA aside, the worst thing about Mox is actually that it's limited to either blue or black in this deck. I could see a deck running a playset of LDV actually really liking Chrome Mox.

[.dk]

I don't think there ever is an "optimal" sideboard, is there? Though with this deck the opponents' hate is pretty obvious so maybe we can come close. If I'm running green, would Ground Seal be a decent card for game three if they're bringing in Surgicals?

Koby - funny that you should mention LDV and Chrome Mox because now that I think of it, LDV actually makes Chrome Mox a lot better in the deck. Card DA aside, the worst thing about Mox is actually that it's limited to either blue or black in this deck. I could see a deck running a playset of LDV actually really liking Chrome Mox.

Who knows if there is? That's been the whole problem. :)

Ground Seal is an option in Green, although I'm personally a bit more inclined to test City of Solitude as a Green answer, as it covers many more cases than Ground Seal does (but doesn't cantrip, and costs a colorless more).

I was running LDV's in the main and in the board in the December timeframe - they are indeed pretty awesome with Chrome Mox. However, that's usually not a huge deal either way. You generally never want to see 2 LDV's pre-combo, so if you happen to see the second, you can always imprint on the singleton Chrome Mox if it comes up in your LDV searching.

LDV also interacts favorably with Children of Korlis as well. If you're running LDV's, I think there is a good case to be made for sticking with 2 Children main as well. Since life total is so important when going off, having a kid in play when you dig deep with LDV can be a pretty big help.

[Freggle]

I'm trying to respond to a lot in a short time so sorry if I skipped over some stuff.

Almost zero reason to run force of will over unmask over countering e tutor/brainstorm -> rest in peace or other hate permanents landing before we can discard them. Our black count is quite high. Unmask also functions as a free discard outlet for our griselbrand, allowing us to turn 1 ponder into turn 2 unmask ourselves into shallow grave/vengeance without requiring any fast mana like moxen, petals, or dark rit's.

I’ll cover this later when I talk about being a two trick pony.

Not really a fan of lab maniac over tendrils of agony. Having to loop your deck to cast emrakul isn't really an issue, as that's pure showboating unless something happened to tendrils that makes it so you can't cast tendrils. After drawing your deck one time your storm count is generally over 15 with ease, as you dark rit 4 times, mox twice, and petal 4 times and that's 10 storm before looking at gitaxian probe, duress just because, shallow grave, reanimate, children of korlis, etc. etc. … We're trying to make the deck more consistent in putting griselbrand in the yard, everything after that is simply elementary.

Exactly, it seems like something may be able to be cut from the combo package. If so that could offer a slot greater disruption and more consistency.

If you play with more cantrips and tutors you loose the decks biggest strength: speed but gain more protection (force/daze). A normal tradeoff.

Remember with calebs list I goldfished: 14% T1, 40% turn2

What you consider this decks biggest strength may be one of limiting factors of growth. As you say we gain more protection as a result of a loss of speed. It also as, you later touch on, it gains greater flexibility. I see this decks greatest strength being it’s compactness (and power level )of combo and it’s light land requirement. That frees up deck slots to allow potential for this deck to be more disruptive than most , and faster than the others.
Currently, I feel this deck is in a weird spot. Too slow, or too even, with pure combo, and not controly enough for control. It may be possible in the relativity that is magic to incorporate blue that in the early turns we can disrupt better in the first few turns only to combo more soundly a few turns later.
A deck with a healthy dose of both counter spells and discard is difficult to face. It is what makes Team America so good. The tutors allow us to at the very least feign being a two trick pony like main decking a singleton Show and Tell. Making boarding hate harder. I can see though that I may be talking about a different deck TinFins 4 perhaps.

Also, I ran preliminary stats on Calebs list, and I think your 14% was a tad low. Surprisingly what limits this number isn’t so much the Entomb but the Dark Ritual as you need 3 mana to combo. If you really wanted to make the deck faster you should consider Reanimate as it lightens the mana requirement in your opening 7. I know you can not attack. I know you loose 8 life, but it could still be pretty consistent. If you run 4 Childern it’s a bit over 60 % to find one in your first 14 cards (your initial 7 plus a Grizzy activation) to combo off T1. It’s also fairly likely you could just thoughtseize removal and attack / win t2, or entomb... In other words if if the goal of TinFins 3 is to try and find the fastest version try a max of Reanimate.
A list KINDA like this may work. …I just feel you’ll be running harder into Daze, Force, Pierce, Thoughtseize…
4 Reanimate
4 Children
4 Shallow
4 Dark Rit
4 Cabal T
3 Thought
4 Chrome
4 Entomb
4 Lotus Petal
4 grizzy
4 Goryo
4 LED
2 ESG
2 SSG
4 scrubland
1 Tendrils / Maniac
4 Marsh Flats

@ Freggle
Just as constructive feedback,…

Agreed. This lists are just like Blue Sky Sketches for me, and not finished products. There more-or-less to see if you can even cram all of these concepts together. It may do me better not to post them, but I felt for some it might be inspiration as to how to pull off FOW count, and flexibility. Abrubt Decay can be discarded as others have mentioned, Attacking for 22 & hedging against Brainfreeze/Grindstone are the best reasons to run Emrakul. I question shuffling in the combo, but it may be needed.

@Freggle - I've tested lists similar to that pretty extensively in the past. A bit less countermagic (no Forces) and more discard, along with 2-3 LDV. Overall, I think it's a valid approach, but changes the general strategy of the deck. You're slowing down significantly vs. the standard Tin Fins lists, and trading that for protection in the form of countermagic to be able to go off protected almost assuredly on T3. I wasn't a huge fan of that for the reasons of cards like Extirpate, Leyline of the Void, and Knight of the Reliquary making Bojuka Bog basically invalidating the counterspells you have in hand. I feel that discard is superior in these cases as it can deal with multiple counterspells (in the case of Therapy), most grave hate (including 2 of the 3 mentioned above), as well as serve as combo pieces in an incredibly tight maindeck. My take anyway - since we're vulnerable along multiple lines (storm hate, graveyard hate), going off as soon as possible seems like a better plan to me so that they have less opportunity to draw or cantrip into hate.

Cool. FYI I’m not trying to step on anyones toes. I don’t think the inclusion of counter magic results in the exclusion of discard. I put them in the Groyo slots to give the deck greater flexibility. Just because something can sidestep counter spells doesn’t mean your counter spells are invalidated for the game. Being a two trick pony (like others have mentioned about Dredge being grindy agro) could also help.

My $0.02: I don't think a straight comparison to Flash Hulk is really accurate

You're right. It is not, but if you break down TES it runs on a similar formula. Combo stuff, Tutor, Cantrips. Now TES is generally considered to be better than Charbelcher because of it's disruption and consistency. This was just a discussion point to take it from the quasi TES / Charbelcher relm, and move it more towards a Hulk Flash Relm. For example TES can not incorporate FOW because of its cost and it's interaction with Ad Naseam. We can, and it could possibly the trump over those decks, and help vs. our control MU.

I will say though that by switching to Lab Maniac, you're getting closer to the all instant-speed Mogg Fanatic kill in Hulk, although I think you should be cutting Tendrils for it rather than Emrakul, since the shuffle effect can be critical sometimes. You might want to check out Chapin's article on Vintage Flash Hulk here. It might be worth looking at Pact of Negation over Daze, since you can technically win with the Pact trigger on the stack with Lab Maniac. I'm just not sure if the deck can do that consistently without casting Lotus Petals.

Doh, your right. Sorcery Speed. I'll be reading a lot including this.

I hope I got it all. Happy reanimating.

[catmint]

....

What you consider this decks biggest strength may be one of limiting factors of growth. As you say we gain more protection as a result of a loss of speed. It also as, you later touch on, it gains greater flexibility. I see this decks greatest strength being it’s compactness (and power level )of combo and it’s light land requirement. That frees up deck slots to allow potential for this deck to be more disruptive than most , and faster than the others.....

Low land count is only possible because you use temporary mana & chrome mox to go off in T1-3. If you want to play like other combo decks cantripping into combo & protection you need to make sure not to randomly loose to wasteland. That means either cutting the 3rd color and inreasing the land count (or both).

Gain more protection for the loss of speed is also relative. Unlike Storm we do not have routes to victory that totally ignore our life total. Beeing slower means you will more often loose to a fair deck curving out. Also beeing slower means you actually need more protection, because the opponent has more time to pile up hate.

[GiveMeYourOil]

I am running this list:

4 Griselbrand
2 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal

3 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm

4 Dark Ritual
1 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
3 Underground Sea
1 Island

Last week i tryed to run a 15 creature SB :

4 Delver Of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nivmagus Elemental
3 Deathrite Shaman

Im not sure that that was the way to go.

So i want to try the Show and tell route, but with Counters.
I am not sure that Pact of Negation is good. But im really likeing the "free" counter ind this deck.

Next SB up for testing:

4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Tidespout Tyrant

[alastair]

4 Delver Of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nivmagus Elemental
3 Deathrite Shaman

I’ve persevered with the Chant / Bounce / Needle SB but remain unhappy. I’m not a fan of stressing the manabase deeper into W, or G and/or B; as the speed of 13 land + 10 ritual count has been working out well for me.

I’m keen to test a creature sideboard, but Delver / Nivmagus / Deathrite leaves you with a worse version than the opposing RUG / BUG list; and whilst a love Bob, I’m not convinced he draw us into enough threats.

I think a SB creature plan needs to trump opposing threats, 4 toughness beats Delver / Mongoose / Souls, and either Flight or Obliterator mean damage will get through. Ok, the likes of Tombstalker will always be a problem. Having tested the creature option, do you consider a sideboard on this basis to be a worthwhile exercise ?

Say:
2-3 Pact / Mindbreak / Needle / Chant
2-3 S&T (with 5 MD targets)

And some mix of 8-10:
4/4 flyers
3/4 flyers
Bitterblossom

[kihachi]

Who knows if there is? That's been the whole problem. :)

Ground Seal is an option in Green, although I'm personally a bit more inclined to test City of Solitude as a Green answer, as it covers many more cases than Ground Seal does (but doesn't cantrip, and costs a colorless more).

I was running LDV's in the main and in the board in the December timeframe - they are indeed pretty awesome with Chrome Mox. However, that's usually not a huge deal either way. You generally never want to see 2 LDV's pre-combo, so if you happen to see the second, you can always imprint on the singleton Chrome Mox if it comes up in your LDV searching.

LDV also interacts favorably with Children of Korlis as well. If you're running LDV's, I think there is a good case to be made for sticking with 2 Children main as well. Since life total is so important when going off, having a kid in play when you dig deep with LDV can be a pretty big help.

Three mana is tough to get to, but City of Solitude could be a solid sideboard card. I probably wouldn't bring it in against a deck with Wastelands though.

What I mean about "optimal" sideboards is that you're basically using it to prepare for the meta, though in our case the meta really just consists of the hate cards we expect to see. But what's optimal for one tournament in one area won't be optimal in other circumstances. So to me there's no such thing as an optimal sideboard. But there are obviously better or worse ones.

GiveMeYourOil - why do you want to add Show and Tells and Pact of Negation? You often don't win instantly off a Show and Tell, especially if you're putting Emrakul or Tidespout Tyrant into play.

[GiveMeYourOil]

GiveMeYourOil - why do you want to add Show and Tells and Pact of Negation? You often don't win instantly off a Show and Tell, especially if you're putting Emrakul or Tidespout Tyrant into play.

The pacts are to protect the Show and tell.

Or it could be used to protect you when you combo out. And i find that this deck dont have any spare Resources. Im even tempted to main deck these in game 1.
I keep loosing to FoW, and in my Meta, ppl know what i play and tend to mulligan to counter backup.

[bartmanqc]

Based on the recent talk about adding FoW and Daze to the MD, i've decided to try it this comming weekend at the LGS monthly legacy.
I'm pretty new to this archetype. I've played only about 20 matches against maybe 4 or 5 archetypes. I feel more confortable running counterspell in the deck for the sideboarded matches. Maybe they should be in the board...
That is why I want to switch to this version. It might give up some of the explosiveness of the original deck but with things like RiP in some maindeck, I feel like this is a reasonable thing to do.

I would like if you could give me some feedbacks on my list. Like everyone, I'm still not convince on the SB plan...


Main deck

2x Griselbrand
1x Children of Korlis
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Tendrils of Agony

4x Entomb
4x Shallow Grave
2x Goryo's Vengeance
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Lim-Dul's Vault
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Thoughtseize
2x Cabal Therapy
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal

4x Polluted Delta
4x Marsh Flats
4x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
1x Island

Sideboard
3x Silence
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Pithing Needle
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
2x Massacre
2x Pull from Eternity

I might replace Daze by Pact of Negation. Im also at 61 cards and don't really know what to cut. Is the manabase correct assuming in playing with silence and pull from eternity in the sideboard?

[.dk]

I think you want another white land source if you're leaning on Silence out of the sideboard. You might consider just changing the Island to Tundra and see how it plays.

I like the look of your list overall though, for incorporating counterspells and LDV main. I think I would likely only run 2 LDV, and add back in the 3rd Goryo's Vengeance, personally. Having hands with multiple LDV are usually not so hot - you may also consider cutting it for a single Chrome Mox as well. Having access to a 5th IMS after drawing from Griselbrand is pretty good (assuming you've played your land for the turn) - and as has been mentioned, can be used to imprint an extra LDV post drawing as a virtual Underground Sea.

I'm very interested to see the results of testing with these new lists - I had only ever tried LDV with discard spells. If any of you are testing these, can you please post the matchups you played and some percentages in addition to overall feel? Would like to start being able to make some data driven decisions for the deck. Maybe one of these days I'll get off my ass and finish my python scripts to goldfish various configurations of the deck to determine how soon we can combo with 0 protection, 1 protection, and 2 protection spells. Should actually be a bit easier to do that taking into account Daze and FoW than Thoughtseize, Therapy, and Probe...

[atopebenidorm]

I am testing with only one children of Korlis and 4 Griselbrand because Show and tell is very good . Liliana of the veil is awesome and 1º turn liliana = bye bye your hand and hatebears. Is very rough if your opponent doesn´t play Abrut decay. I will test Geist of saint traft because is another win condition and we can return with goryo´s vengeance and karakas (our hand), in 2º and 3º games with Liliana, the game often is long, and we can win with geist without problems.

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
3 Show and tell
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
4 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea


Side:

2 Geist of Saint Traft ( Goryo´s and Karakas friend, 6 power damage creature )
2 Duress
2 Karakas
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Echoing Truth
4 Liliana of the veil
2 Pull from the eternity

[Koby]

Boarding into Liliana seems to me as a novel approach to being GY hate against permanent based strategies. Interesting suggestion. I'll incorporate it into my testing regiment.

[Dia_Bot]

Has anyone tried to play Grand abolisher in the sideboard?
I've tested it out and so far it seems to be a nice inclusion. It stops the most played graveyard hate cards as well as counters and can be reanimated if countered.