All B/R update speculation.

[Zombie]

I want Griselbrand and friends gone due to sheer derp. I mean, just look at:
Protean Hulk, Regal Force, Craterhoof Behemoth, Progenitus, Darksteel Colossi, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Blazing Archon, Inkewell Leviathan, Terastodon and stuff
and
Griselbrand, Emrakul, Omniscience, Jin-Gitaxias...

The former are brutally strong but awkward in their own way. Some require setup, others solve specific problems. The latter are just so overpowered and universally applicable they become boring and unexciting. They just win, basically no questions asked.

[burtonbaron62]

I want Griselbrand and friends gone due to sheer derp. I mean, just look at:
Protean Hulk, Regal Force, Craterhoof Behemoth, Progenitus, Darksteel Colossi, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Blazing Archon, Inkewell Leviathan, Terastodon and stuff
and
Griselbrand, Emrakul, Omniscience, Jin-Gitaxias...

The former are brutally strong but awkward in their own way. Some require setup, others solve specific problems. The latter are just so overpowered and universally applicable they become boring and unexciting. They just win, basically no questions asked.

Word. I don't have a problem with Show and Tell or reanimator based strategies, but at least make them choose which ridiculous critters they want to have, or make them board guys in and out depending on match-up. Right now it is Griselbrand and Emrakul > all others.

[xfxf]

So anyone still thinks either Griselbrand or S&T could get the ban hammer this May?

[joemauer]

So anyone still thinks either Griselbrand or S&T could get the ban hammer this May?

As stupid as both of those cards are, neither are dominating. I believe either/or will be banned one day; however one or two more ridiculous card(s) need to be printed first.

[Megadeus]

I want Griselbrand and friends gone due to sheer derp. I mean, just look at:
Protean Hulk, Regal Force, Craterhoof Behemoth, Progenitus, Darksteel Colossi, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Blazing Archon, Inkewell Leviathan, Terastodon and stuff
and
Griselbrand, Emrakul, Omniscience, Jin-Gitaxias...

The former are brutally strong but awkward in their own way. Some require setup, others solve specific problems. The latter are just so overpowered and universally applicable they become boring and unexciting. They just win, basically no questions asked.

The fattie very rarely will get the Axe. if anything is going to get the axe it would be SNT. Not saying it needs the Axe. What got the Axe though, Survival or Vengevine? Its always the enablers.

If we are going to ban some cards, just because they are derpy and un fun to some people and not because they are actually dominating the format we might as well just be Modern :p

[Lemnear]

So anyone still thinks either Griselbrand or S&T could get the ban hammer this May?

Dunno ... atm the Grizz-Bear's invading Modern in Company of G. Vengeance and Through the Breach. Maybe WotC becomes more aware of him here than via Vintage & Legacy. Still I don't see a Problem with him

[Lord Seth]

So anyone still thinks either Griselbrand or S&T could get the ban hammer this May?

Unless something happens between now and May, not really. Neither Show and Tell nor Tin Fins are particularly dominant.

But if they were to ban one...a while ago I would've said that Show and Tell would be the banned one, but with Tin Fins around I'm wondering if they might pick Griselbrand instead.

[salvor]

The fattie very rarely will get the Axe. if anything is going to get the axe it would be SNT. Not saying it needs the Axe. What got the Axe though, Survival or Vengevine? Its always the enablers.

That ban the enablers mantra is a bit strange. In a two-card combo combopieces are equivalent, how can you say that one is enabler and other is not?

Can anyone give a reasonable definition of "enabler", so that I can't say "Vengevine is a powerful enabler, which makes self-discard broken, ban the enabler please" or "Griselbrand is powerful enabler that makes cheat-fatty effects broken"?

The only possible definition I've found is "enabler is a combo-piece which fits in more possible combos" (e.g. cheat-fatty effects are enablers because there are less of them than fatties), but then the whole "ban the enablers" idea is hogwash: Why on the hell you will want to ban something which fits in a lot of different decks those hurting a lot of stuff while you can ban non-"enabler" to hurt less of them and keep everything helthy.

[Lemnear]

That ban the enablers mantra is a bit strange. In a two-card combo combopieces are equivalent, how can you say that one is enabler and other is not?

Can anyone give a reasonable definition of "enabler", so that I can't say "Vengevine is a powerful enabler, which makes self-discard broken, ban the enabler please" or "Griselbrand is powerful enabler that makes cheat-fatty effects broken"?

The only possible definition I've found is "enabler is a combo-piece which fits in more possible combos" (e.g. cheat-fatty effects are enablers because there are less of them than fatties), but then the whole "ban the enablers" idea is hogwash: Why on the hell you will want to ban something which fits in a lot of different decks those hurting a lot of stuff while you can ban non-"enabler" to hurt less of them and keep everything helthy.

"enablers" are card's which Open up ways to cheat on manacosts or make a certain strategy significantly easier to execute. Entomb enables reanimation-strategies as Survival did, Show&Tell, Sneak attack, Omniscience, Flash, etc. reduce mana costs, mystical gave Combo Decks of all Kind redundancy.

They ban enablers because that is WotC's policy. Survival was banned because of being a repeatable tutor which harms WotC's Freedom to print dumb creatures which would Push SotF over the Top like Vengevine may did. They printed "fixed" versions in Fauna Shaman, gren Sun's Zenith and summiner's pact though.

The bolded Part is a Problem: Grizz is the ultimate Target for a wide range of decks like sneak Attack, S&T and reanimator. There is no other option but Grizz & Emrakul ... period. So IF the DCI wants to harm those Decks they have to choose the Card in Common (Grizz & Emrakul) or will at least ban entomb + show&tell (+ X) instead. Survival gave evidence which Option they would prefer.

[lordofthepit]

Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Entomb, etc. are all enablers, but in the case of Griselbrand, the creature is itself an enabler (like Hermit Druid). Unlikely previous enablers like Necropotence or Yawgmoth's Bargain to which it bears some resemblence, however, Griselbrand is also a win condition.

It's not dominating the format, and I am enough of a hypocrite that I will occasionally play Griselbrand.dec when the time is right, but that card unequivocally should have never been printed. However, I think the threshold for "banning" is higher than what I would have for "this shouldn't have been printed", so it may be enough to keep off the chopping block for now.

[Lemnear]

It's not dominating the format...

I sure don't have to mention Mystical Tutor here, have I?

[lordofthepit]

I sure don't have to mention Mystical Tutor here, have I?

I never understood that banning. Maybe it was preemptive because the DCI knew about Miracles as well as the new toys that Storm/Reanimator would receive (Mystical Tutor + Probe is just way too efficient, and I don't need to get into Past in Flames, Griselbrand, Jin-Gitaxias, etc.).

[Lemnear]

I never understood that banning. Maybe it was preemptive because the DCI knew about Miracles as well as the new toys that Storm/Reanimator would receive (Mystical Tutor + Probe is just way too efficient, and I don't need to get into Past in Flames, Griselbrand, Jin-Gitaxias, etc.).

Ah, there it is! They banned mystical so they can continue to print dumb shit ... same as with Survival and likely the same with every other enabler in the Future once they hit a certain threshold of powerhouses which abuse the engine

That's all I was trying to Point out

[xfxf]

So the question becomes do they think S&T reached that threshold

[Lemnear]

So the question becomes do they think S&T reached that threshold

Exactly. You may want to add Entomb as another top-enabler which was discussed in several threads before. Now that Griselbrand + Emrakul found their way into Modern with G. Vengeance and Through the Breach I expect the DCI to take a closer look to Grizz+enablers overall

[DragoFireheart]

If SnT and Grislebrand are seen as too powerful OR that in combination with a new creature pushes it over the top, SnT would get banned before Grislebrand.

[Koby]

I suspect S&T will get axed before Griselbrand, but both are a bad sign for the format in the long-term. S&T is only really on the chopping block so long as R&D continue to disregard the fact that a card's casting cost has zero relevance to its degeneracy in Eternal formats. Even in Modern you can cheat creature costs very easily and somewhat reliably, so simply saying "we test it at 7 mana and it was too broken, but 8 mana is OK" is laughable.

[DragoFireheart]

I suspect S&T will get axed before Griselbrand, but both are a bad sign for the format in the long-term. S&T is only really on the chopping block so long as R&D continue to disregard the fact that a card's casting cost has zero relevance to its degeneracy in Eternal formats. Even in Modern you can cheat creature costs very easily and somewhat reliably, so simply saying "we test it at 7 mana and it was too broken, but 8 mana is OK" is laughable.

Especially with decks like 12-post that can inevitably ramp into a daemon or tentacle monster despite disruption.


On a unrelated note, I wish Mental Misstep was made legal again just so I can try a Blade Control deck with SFM, Jace, Snapcaster, and MMS for a few months to see how degenerate it would be. Makes me sad that we never got to see how bad MMS would have gotten if it was still legal when Snappy got printed.

[Greenpoe]

"enablers" are card's which Open up ways to cheat on manacosts or make a certain strategy significantly easier to execute.

The second clause of "enabler" makes your definition awful. Under this defintion, Ad Nauseam should have been banned. Honestly, Griselbrand is just as much a means as it is an ends. It's not like Iona or Emrakul where it just wins by itself as a creature. Griselbrand is an enabler because he refills your hand. With the other insane creatures, if you deal with them, you're in good shape (relatively). With Griselbrand, if you deal with the creature, it's not important because your opponent still drew 7-14 cards.

[Julian23]

The second clause made me realize the difference between Enablers and Engines

Examples for Engines:
Survival of the Fittest, Ad Nauseam, Ill-Gotten Gains, Past in Flames, Argothian Enchantress etc.

Examples for Enablers:
Tinker, Show and Tell, Loyal Retainers, Natural Order, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Aluren etc.