except miracles mirror, against which decks do you usually side in all Geists?
Against combo and control.
Does anyone run 4 tundras ? Are they needed ? Or is 3 the perfect #?
I've had good success with 2. Getting wasted early can really set you backOriginally Posted by kingsey
Manabase:
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic
5 Island
3 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
Matt Bevenour in real life
Geists is a horrible blocker. Usually those slots are for either Geists or Mirran Crusader. People run him mostly due to Hexproof. If Jund and Burn are not rampent in your area, you should just run Mirran Crusader instead. Crusader works against BUG (as long as you counter Liliana).
I've also found two to be right right number such that I can find them when I need them but I am not very vulnerable to wasteland. Three could also be fine, but four seems actively bad to me.
Do you guys seriously think Geist is good? Every single time I've seen it played, it was horrible. It doesn't even make sense:
- Against a competent combo player, you tapping out on turn 3 for a dude that doesn't disrupt them at all is pretty much the combo player's wet dream. This is coming from a lot of experience with combo
- Against a competent Miracles player, they leave in Terminus because the only way they lose is to Entreat and bad sideboard cards like Geist. Oh, and they can just counter it and then resolve Counterbalance on their turn. Nice trump.
- Against Stoneblade, they have approximately infinite blockers (Souls, Stoneforge, Clique), have good lifegain (Batterskull, Jitte), and are the aggressors in that matchup.
- And obviously he's bad against any deck with Goyf, any deck that you might want to block, and any deck with Liliana. So...what is he good against?
Mirran Crusader is interesting, but has almost all of the shortcomings, but is also weak to Swords to Plowshares and Bolt (you know, the first and second most-played removal spells in legacy).
Look, this slot isn't a mystery. If you want to have cards to speed up your clock in combo, play Meddling Mage. If you want to protect your lock pieces from Abrupt Decay, play Meddling Mage. Hell, if you want to make sure your 12-post opponent can't play Repeal on your Blood Moon, play Meddling Mage!
The number of matches I've lost playing combo against any variant of UW control without Meddling Mage is so small in comparison to the number I've lost solely on the back of Meddling Mage. The card is terrifying.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
I agree with mostly all of this. I can't understand why anyone would think that main phasing anything for more than one or two mana without affecting the game state is a good idea against combo.
The only thing I somewhat disagree with is against Goyf decks. In the past, Geist would be fairly horrible against any deck running Green, but since most lists are already running RiP, I think it's much more manageable to keep Goyfs in check. I don't much like Geist, but RiP definitely gives it more game against Jund-like decks.
I do like Meddling Mage a lot against combo. I've tried them against Abrupt Decay decks before and was unimpressed (although that was before I changed over to RiP). Jund can be a pretty rough MU, but Entreat is amazing there. I think 4 out of 5 games I win against them involve Entreating for 3 or greater.
Those slots are meant for Jund/BUG. Meddling Mage has been said and done by Joe Lossett/oarsman. Just read his article written earlier this year, and then look at what's in his SB after he wrote the articles:
Played by Joe Lossett. Top8 in SCG Legacy Open Las Vegas (Mar-2013)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Sphere of Law
3 Rest in Peace
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Force of Will
1 Disenchant
1 Pyroblast
1 Misdirection
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Entreat the Angels
Do you see Meddling Mage?
Not trying to discredit you, but I don't see MM in either Jack's or Alex's list either. Bottom line, MM has negative Synergy with Terminus.
As I mentioned before, Mirran Crusader is meant for BUG. BUG has no Red spells or StP. BUG's only answer to a Resolved Mirran Crusader is Liliana (some BUG version runs Jace, but not all). People run Geist is more for Jund, and most likely just end up blocking a Goyf or sacrificing it to Liliana anyhow.
Yeah, as twndomn noticed I gave up on the Meddling Mage plan against Abrupt Decay. Mages are still good against most combo decks, but that isn't enough for me right now. This is the board I played at a GP San Diego side event.
3 Rest in Peace
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Misdirection
1 Force of Will
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Entreat the Angels
Blue Blasts were added after I lost against Sneak and Show in the Vegas top 8. That deck is everywhere right now. The matchup is close, and Sneak Attack is far more threatening than Show and Tell. They also give me two more first turn removal spels for Goblin Lackeys.
... and here's the board I played to Top8 in SCG Atlanta (Feb 2013):
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Humility
1 Counterbalance
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Porphyry Nodes
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Vendilion Clique
Not trying to be a dick about it, but Meddling Mage has done well. I've read Joe's articles, and his reasoning is sounds but I still find the mage to be one of the best cards to board. Meddling Mage definitely overperformed for me in Atlanta, and I'm up to three copies. Maybe I just play against more combo than you guys seem to, but I would almost never leave home without it. Geist has negative synergy with Terminus too... Mage only stays in the deck alongside Terminus against goblins and elves, both matchups where geist would do absolutely nothing.
Right, Meddling Mage no good against Abrupt Decay, but I think the way to beat Jund is to load up on entreats and play things like misdirection and friends. (RIP helps too). Beating BUG (and to some extent Jund) for me comes down mostly to Blood Moon and having access to a combo kill with Entreat and RIP/Helm.
To me that seems like another reason to have Meddling Mage, but I do understand the applications vs goblins for builds without access to RIP / Field to lock them out.
--
In other news, I've been doing a lot of writing about the deck lately, and I feel like we need to have a good Primer up here. I'm happy to write one and discuss it, would anyone object to that?
Last edited by alphastryk; 03-19-2013 at 11:23 PM. Reason: cleaned up formatting
I have read that article, and Joe's decision do have internal consistency. Joe is a great player and I have a lot of respect for his understanding of the deck. But you should take a look at that board yourself! It features a strong 0 Geists. I can't really speak to why Jack replaced MM from alphastryk's board (he pretty much said that he built from Brian's list), but I'm a bit wary of pulling inspiration from Alex Binek deck choices. I have a lot of respect for Alex's playskills in general - I heard good things from the WMC reports and I've seen him play well before. But when he was featured playing Miracles, it looked like he hadn't played it very much based on a lot of the small suboptimal decisions that he made. That definitely could be a wrong impression, correct me if so.
Also I'm trying really really hard to imagine a scenario where Terminus would be relevant and MM is in play. For example, against Sneak & Show, you're almost always going to name Sneak Attack, so if you ever need Terminus, MM would have to be off the table.
Joe - I can see how Blue Blast is a strong answer to both Goblins and Sneak Attack, but it looks like your list in general gives up a lot of points to combo. In SCG Vegas, it seemed like most of your losses were to combo - I know you lost to Koby playing TinFins but didn't really track the rest of the pairings. Maybe it's just not realistic in your build, but isn't Meddling Mage a strong enough answer to shore up those somewhat weak combo matchups? Combo has been doing fairly well recently, so it would make me nervous to play a counterbalance deck that doesn't actually beat good combo players.
Edit - alphastryk seems to have gotten his post in before mine and our posts seem to be saying the same thinglol funny how that happens
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
When playing vs a deck like Shardless BUG, which always finds an Abrupt Decay but doesn't have (much) other removal, Meddling Mage = win ^_^
Other BUG decks and Jund don't rly care much about MM.. But I learned that a matchup like TES is most certainly not a BYE, because you are slow and they will find that Abrupt Decay for your CB. Meddling Mage worked for me in matchups like that. Just as naming Sneak Attack wil be a pain in the ass for your opponent.
Is there some reason people aren't talking about Divert and/or Misdirection vs. all of the Abrupt Decay running around?
It's the perfect solution. You have the opportunity to actually *gain* card advantage by 2-for-1ing them if you Divert their Decay to one of their creatures.
Am I missing something?
Oh, naming decay vs combo deck using it as anti-hate (TES, Elves) is excellent, but not so much against things like Junk, Jund, BUG midrange, etc.
you're talking about a awful matchup anyway with all those discards and Pernicious Deed packed in...
imho we should route for a sort of plan B for that matchup like an alternative WC in SB (8+ cards change)
Divert, Misdirection, and Redirect have been tried. Divert quickly becomes dead because the opponent has enough mana to pay, Misdirection is a 2 for 2. Redirect is often hard to leave mana up for.
The real problem though, as I see it, is that those cards are all so narrow. They have less value than I'm happy with in most other matchups, and Decay isn't the card you really lose to most of the time. It's unfortunate, but I feel like discard, Liliana, Ancestral Vision, Deed, Confidant, etc are what I actually lose to.
What do you think about removing the Supreme Verdict for an Humility main deck?
I don't know why you'd name Abrupt Decay against a combo deck. Naming a combo piece forces them to find an answer. If all you have out is a Meddling Mage naming their anti-hate then you aren't really stopping them from comboing. If you have a Meddling Mage (on a combo piece) and say a Counterbalance then they still have to find two anti-hate cards in order to combo. Having a Meddling Mage naming an anti-hate piece (like Abrupt Decay) with a Counterbalance only makes it so they can't use Abrupt Decay to destroy your CB. They can Reverent Silence, they can Wipeaway, and they can just play around it with cards like Turnabout, Time Spiral, and Diminishing Returns. If you have two hate pieces, make them have two answers.
Even though I am not playing it, I like Humility a lot against anything with Show and Tell. The reason I run Supreme Verdict has to do with the difficulty of resolving a four mana spell against an aggro deck that plays both Daze and Spell Pierce. That is more relevant to my deck though. All the people with RIP main do not need to worry as much about RUG and BUG. Maybe in that case the swap would make sense.
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