Take that head out of the ass, would you?Originally Posted by Lemnear
Cabal Rit, PiF and Tendrils main do funny things. Like, dunno, turn the deck into more of a control one, with a better long game, more resiliency to discard and makes an aggro mentality worse because AdN actually costs 6 and you have no EtW and other fun stuff. Same thing as when you swap Bob/Tombstalker in BUG. One is a control deck, the other more of a tempo/beatdown thing. Just by changing one card.
Oh, Prosak also wrote an ANT primer: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...rm-Primer.html
Sure looks a lot like TES to me. But yeah. Gemstone Mines. Same deck, I guess.
Oh, that's actually explained pretty easily. If it's good (and not High Tide), I'll play it. Currently, I just don't see it. Too many Snapcaster Mages around for discard to be worth it imho, but oh well.
And Ignorant Bliss > Divert. Not only can you not Divert a Duress, but IB also acts as LED 5 - 6 if needed.
Slow riding, ranger ;)
Hit'n on me and presenting bold, false Infos wields no class. BUG Control and Team America differs much more than you try to paint in the Sky. Goofy, Bob, Tombstalker, Deed, Ponder, Dismember, Sylvan Library etc. belong in One or the other Concept ... there is no shared Space as Big as you describe. Much more than "just by changing a Card".
While TES and ANT both Play PIF in their 75, please explain me how Tendrils and Cabal Ritual define a Control Mode? Keep the fairytale about "resiliancy to discard". Both Decks have Access to PIF but TES has more buisness with the wishes compared with the preordains in ANT. Dood, I played both decks a lot and this topic is bullshit, especially because TES can win before Hymn hits which is unlikely with ANT. The only thing which was 100% true, was the resiliancy to Stifle/Wasteland ... and then came first the Burning Wish tests, then the 4th color for Abrupt Decay and finally Gemstone Mine to Support the 4th color (and Silence for the 5th Color as suggested)
I don't think either option is good but I see a lot more Inquisitions, Thoughtseize and Hymns than Duress around atm which lead me to the conclusion that Divert would be better. I did see the interaction with infernal tutor and as an Option to dodge LED discard but the additional cost of 1R feels too high for such tricks.
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Might as well chime in here:
@Zombie: Don't confuse a control role with durdling around with cantrips until you can ritual/tutor chain into a lethal tendrils. They're not the same thing. ANT is a clunky deck and has significantly more issues against discard/counter decks (i.e. Esperblade) than TES because it's so god damn slow. Ponder? Ponder? Brainstorm? Ponder? Ponder? Oops, I lose.
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This has been my experience playing against the deck as well. I Cabal Therapied naming LED, he didn't play anything for the rest of the game and died.
Game two he got two bobs down, and then I pulsed them and killed him. I wasn't really sure why I wasn't dead either game.
i have yet to see a productive comment come out of you lemnaer. TES fanboy much? just because a few random kids wants to dilute their ANT decks with rainbowlands and silence doesn't mean that's what the general consensus agrees on as the ANT list. TES and ANT are different decks, with different strengths and weaknesses. get over it.
and sure while Crit and tendrils doesn't make you more of a control deck, running 8-9 discard effects MD does make you more of a control deck than TES. being able to strip your opponents hand of anything relative, even in the non blue matches makes a big deal. now im not saying ANT is a control deck or even that it has real control qualities, because that's not true. however it does do a better job of slowing down the opponent for 2-3 turns than TES does, because that's exactly what its supposed to do.
this is the exact reason why i don't see the fuss with prosak's list. running only 4 tutors 6 discard and 16 cantrips seems like total nonsense to me. not having enough disruption and cantriping into cantrips doesn't seem like what you want to be doing when your playing ANT. To me, it seems like every innovation he's made has been in the completely wrong direction. ANT with no BW or Grim and only 6 disruption?? what is the appeal here???
im not sure why he would keep a hand with LED and no discard or cantrips or anything else to play. or why he didnt just play his LED before you could discard it if he knew he was playing against discard.
g2 theres no way hes playing both bobs at once, so he at least got 1 free card off the original bob. now if you backed up that pulse with some more discard and a fast clock i could see the game ending in your favor. but in no way was it simply. " i pulse his confidants and he loses the game"
this comment seems like bs to me, either that or the ANT player you were playing is a terrible player, or just having completely crap draws
Grammar much?
It boils down to this:
If you're playing storm -- one of the fastest decks in Legacy -- why the hell are you trying to win on turn 4/5 by assuming the "control-role" instead of just winning now.
If I have two Bobs in hand while playing ANT, I'm sure as hell running both out. If you don't, you're forcing yourself to have LED to win with any non-Burning Wish tutor.
P.S. Silence stops them for 1 turn, not slows them for 2 or 3. But guess what? Then you win, obviously. Also Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy doesn't beat a hand stacked with multiple blue permission spells.
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He went lotus petal, cracked for brainstorm, land, and probe. I therapy on LED because he's obviously storm and beat him to death after.
Next game, he probes me, therapies me and takes my surgical, he flashed a dark rit when sloppily flipping cards around in his hand, so I hit that with my therapy, duress him, then beat him to death with Knight / DRS.
when did i say you win turn 4/5? generally ant wins 2-3 and rarely t4+.
you play ant because you want to be consistent. i agree TES is the more powerful, and the faster deck, but its not the most resilient, consistent, or inevitable. like i keep saying. each deck has its own strengths and weaknesses. and like you said, storm is one of the fastest(and strongest) decks in legacy. whether your playing ANT or TES comes down to preference and what you feel most familiar and comfortable with. im so sick of this ANT vs TES conversation.
im not sure what the point of this is? obviously you would play both your confidants. all i was saying is pulse alone didn't win that game.If I have two Bobs in hand while playing ANT, I'm sure as hell running both out. If you don't, you're forcing yourself to have LED to win with any non-Burning Wish tutor.
p.s cabal therapy strips multiples out of hands, and is just fine as stopping hands full of blue permission.
Let's be clear: the disruption package of AnT is almost antihate. That is, it is a set of cards we use against the cards they will use to stop us. We are not at all interested in stopping another decks game plan unless their plan is highly disruptive to our own.
I would never say 'deck X is the control deck in the matchup' unless deck X only needs to prevent itself from losing and let its natural inevitability over the opposition take root. IE- High tide plays the control role against Belcher.
My issues with AnT as opposed to TES are three fold.
A) Active GY hate is much harder to beat for AnT
B) Sensei's divining top with a counter spell on the top of the deck is very difficult to beat
C) Snapcaster with snare/counterspell in GY is harder to beat
Most of those TES can just cast silence and not care. TES being half a turn faster is just icing
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well this makes alot more sense. you were definitely on fire both these games ;D
If you are looking for productive comments, check out the last few hundreds i've done in this forum.
I was questioning the strict differing between the two decks which both develop towards each other (See Probe in TES). As I said before: I've played both approaches to storm and have made my conclusions. Feel free to disagree/argue about my analysis of both concepts development. Throwing my outlayed arguments uncontested and uncommented overboard by trying to put People into boxes like "you are a fanboy, period" is a niveau 5th graders debate about Sony Playstation vs. Microsoft Xbox.
Tbh I have never seen a successful ANT list running 9 discard spells. I rather repeat the question of RandomGestures (sorry for skipping the caps-thing) and ask about the mindset to put more than 2 Playsets of Control elements in a Combo Deck, which WILL Slow you down, brick your hand or are complete deaddraws against permament-focused-Decks. This throws up 2 questions: Why should a deck, that sculpts his Hand for 3-4 Turn and runs additional cantrips to grab protection and Combo pieces with higher reliance run even more protection than TES? Why Slow down your Deck with redundant cantrips and protection to fights things you could outrace otherways?
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It felt good, since prior I was convinced I couldn't beat storm haha.
your never trying to be the control deck with ant. and its no where near being able to be a control deck. and your right, the discard functions as anti-hate generally speaking. but when you play a probe and see a shaman, or counterbalance, or literally anything that can screw you up, you can strip it, and keep yourself alive. silence can only be played after the fact. sure, i suppose you can "chant-walk"them and try to go off next turn. but you better be able to go off that turn.
as far as your issues with ANT.
1) not true, alot of the ANT lists are running 2-3 burning wish. you either grab ETW with wish, or go for AdN, or just tutor chain.
2) you got his one, silence is the clear winner. SB bounce/ abrupt decay does the trick though, or BW shattering spree/hull breach
3) easy, discard snapcaster/ win before they have 3-4 mana.
its true that silence can be amazing in certain situations. hence the reason why people play it and why TES is a great deck.
like ive said though, i dont think TES vs ANT is a productive conversation. and i think both decks are great and both thrive in different situations.
Therapy on LED or Dark Riutal are your best outs. Wise choice. However, to me it doesn't make sense to play petal, bs, Probe in the first place. If he's looking for a Land he should Probe first; if he desperates wants to shuffle cards back, burning a petal + Brainstorm he might should have mulliganed instead (like Ad Nauseam in Hand) or wait till Turn 2 to shuffle via a follow-up fetchland. In this case he could dodge a discard spell with that Brainstorm off the 1st land. In either case: poorly played.
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Who needs Thoughtseize when you just name shit in their hand! And it flashes back!
It's super hard to play but, Therapy is definitely the best discard spell out there. I generally run it over other options, going on like 8 or 9 months experience with the card.
I've found Grim tutor versions to be much better than the BW main versions. Having the mana to continue post ad nausem (which is notably plan 2 or 3 in this deck most of the time) is reliant on threshed cabal rituals, as is tutor chain. Often not much of a concern, but much more so than the -1 R nabbing a rite of flame with deathrite shaman does.
Against blue decks featuring top, i got enough targets for decay with beating CB that I don't often want to find another to get top too.
Discarding snapcaster is hard with 3 therapy, sometimes you just dont find it. Between UBx's discard and soft permission, it takes time to work around them to the point they often have the 3-4 mana to play with snapcaster.
Talking about TES x ANT is somewhat relevant. We get to see where we'd prefer one over the other (silence dont care about spell snare/stifle, for example) and let us tune AnT in hopefully a way to incorporate the ideas TES has been successful with. If we can understand why one 'thrives in certain situations' perhaps we can tailor the other in a way to operate fine under those conditions
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your not trying to go off t1, so being the fastest deck isn't relevant. your trying to go off, anywhere from t2-3. and sometimes t4+. so you play around 8 disruption spells to let you go off t2-3 through countermagic. running 6 disruption can lead you into scenarios where you have everything to go off, but no disruption to protect it, and like iv previously stated i dont think running 16 cantrips to find your goods is where you want to be either. wasting time cantiping into cantips can, and will probably get you killed. you want to be consistently drawing what you need, with minimal hand sculpting. im my experience, 8-9 discard effects enables you to almost always have some to fire off before trying to combo out. and again, your not sculpting for 3-4 turns. your sculpting, generally, for 1-2 and winning anywhere from 2-4.
TES literally justcan't run as much disruption, as it dilutes the deck so much, and the only thing TES is trying to do, is be faster. but is it more consistent? how many times do you draw hands full of chrome moxs, or multiple burning wish that don't do anything, or have rite of flame and dark ritual but you no access to red mana, etc. both decks are good for different reasons, and both decks have issues regarding different aspects.
another thing, discard is just fine against permanent based decks. as far as i know Cabal therapy, IoK, and thoughtseize can still hit just about anything.
Last edited by AlleywayJack; 03-21-2013 at 09:42 PM.
ahh i see. you have made a few valid points!
1) your right, non threshed Crit aren't doing all that much for you, and certainly aren't going to get you tutor chaining. that being said deathrite shaman isn't usually much of a problem, iv actually never had him rob my Crits of thresh before. more intense grave hate like rest in peace is alot more difficult to play around. and usually forces you into awkward AdNs or EtW
2)top and Cb causing you problems? hull breech
3) depending on which discard you usuing. IoK, thoughtseize, cabal therapy all hit snappy
the discussion of TES vs ANT is somewhat relevant but both decks play different cards for different reasons. so you cant exactly say "this card is good in TES so it must be good in ANT" because it doesn't exactly work that way
Last edited by AlleywayJack; 03-21-2013 at 09:43 PM.
The ANT deck that won GP Ghent played 8 distruption spells. TES plays 7. What's your point?
Grammar. Grammar. Grammar.
Also, people will take you seriously once you stop being such an asshat.
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