[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[Lemnear]

TES literally justcan't run as much disruption, as it dilutes the deck so much, and the only TES is trying to do, is be faster. but is it more consistent? how many times do you draw hands full of chrome moxs, or multiple burning wish that don't do anything, or have rite of flame and dark ritual but you no access to red mana, etc. both decks are good for different reasons, and both decks have issues regarding different aspects.

another thing, discard is just fine against permanent based decks. as far as i know Cabal therapy, IoK, and thoughtseize can still hit just about anything.

Bricking on moxen was an issue which got the playset reduced to a 3-off Time ago. Additional burning wishes can be imprinted into moxen or grab protection Out of the Sideboard (like Therapy). If i remember correctly Bryant's winning list from SCGDC had 4 gemstones, 2 Cities, a volcanic, 3 fetches and 4 Lotus Petals (aside from the chrome moxen) as initial red mana sources. Sure this doesn't mean, you have Access to Rite + Ritual Turn 1 every time.

You won't run IoK in a Storm Deck. I have to admit I was unclear in my statemen about permaments. I was aiming for problems with quick permament hate like Thalia, Teeg or Co. from the hate-perspective or swarm.dec's like Goblins, Meerfolk, Zoo and other quick Aggro which make drawn protection blanks (especially duress). This is more of an issue if you are on the draw and face Lackey, Vial, delver, etc. already on the table. Postboard you can adjust those deaddraws by switching the discard for perm. hate like Decay or Chain of Vapor, but game 1 can be a pain with all the useless discard. During my playtime additional Protection was less of an issue in TES because of "chant-walking" and chrome moxen

[Pdingo]

Guys what do you think its the better choice tutor/maybe cantrip. Maybe its only a Meta choice? or own playstyle?
i like the TNT/ANT feat BW a lot and the UB ANT to.

Burning Wish(3off+chrome mox maybe) ( Allowed to use SB tricks to give us a empty, hatebear removal but BW goes to exil. But you find faster a Tutor when you play it)
or
Preordain 4off (another Cantrip, i like it 4off, more constistant but can be slower insteat of BW)
or
a 2-3 off preordain and 1off Grim Tutor (Well its a tutor more but cc is 3 and the life loss can be relevant and bader with Ad nauseam, for me the badest option)

What would you play? What do you like at the moest?

sry for my bad english..


Greets Dingo

[Lemnear]

My friend your topic is exactly part of the identity crisis this thread faces the last few pages. If you are into Burning Wish + Chrome Mox, you may visit the TES thread in the established forum. For advice concerning the UB Version with red-Splash for Past in Flames, you are right in this thread.

Because we have A LOT of experiments with the deck atm I refuse to give a clear advice for your concern. For an UB(r) Version the Choice of a Single Grim Tutor among preordains is solid. You may check the Last 10 Pages here and in the TES thread. They will answer your question.

[mort-]

just because a few random kids wants to dilute their ANT decks with rainbowlands and silence doesn't mean that's what the general consensus agrees on as the ANT list.

I'm a bit offended by that and actually do not see, neither through your posts, nor through the list you posted, where you come from to call other people "random kids".

So, as to not derail this thread by personal ramblings, I'd like to analyse our options of discard - which is what brought me to Silence.
We do have Inquisition of Kozilek, which doesn't hit Force of Will. So that's a big minus. Thoughtseize does hit it, but as you are aware, Divert and Missdirection are cards now. So to be honest, I'm pretty sure that running either of both is the worst thing you could do.
That leaves us with Duress and Cabal Therapy. Duress is obviously awesome, but leaves Snapcaster in their hand. Which came up pretty often while using it.. so dawww. It also is pretty much dead against Maverick. Yeah, that's not that much of a problem because the deck sunk in popularity, but at a very big event, you should think about playing it 1 or 2 rounds.
Which brings me to Cabal Therapy. It can be missdirected, but does no harm, except for wasting a spell. It's also very hard to play, but can hit everything. Problem, it can be pretty much worthless if you didn't see their hand and/or do not have the luxury to chose the only card that would hinder you. Can also easily be outplayed by Brainstorm.
All of them suck against Sensei's.

So, by pure strength, I'd rate them like CT > Duress > TS > IoK.
Feel free to add additional info I forgot.

As you might have seen from my earlier posts, I'll generally hate TES' stupid, nonsolid manabase and chose ANT over TES because of that in the past. But, there have always been weaknesses to the discard plan. Now, currently, they are at an all time high. Yet alone, when you look at the DtB section:

Mirror - Hands down, Silence will win this, easily.

Jund - Well, Silence/discard don't give too much. Main point should be to avoid the Hymn T2, the rest is a cakewalk. If they start (otp) with discard, they'll most likely hit your protection spell (as long as the kill is not imminent) to go into T2 Hymn. Nothing won here, I guess you will not be naming Hymn against an unknown opponent T1 (otp). Of course, Duress wins here, so be it.

Blade Control - I actually like this matchup. Generally, targeting their discard with yours always counts as a win for discard, but the diversity of their countermagic and protective spells makes it hard to target an unseen hand with Cabal Therapy. Also, Snapcaster Mages. Pretty easy matchup, but I do think Silence has the edge here, maybe not preboard, but postboard, when they bring in Flusterstorms, most definitely.

Miracle Control - Top, CB, yes. Discarding Counterbalance can be great, but one of their many counterspells beneath an active top can be way too destructive. No good matchup, even after boarding, still, Silence has the edge because of the obvious top action.

Team America - Against the tempo oriented version, Discard wins. You can target their discard and they usually have not that much / diverse countermagic to warrant playing Silence. Also, hitting Hymn with Duress is just fun. The opposite can be said about the control version of the deck. Diverse countermagic and Snapcaster Mages make chanting the better option. This should probably be split up, but as I get tired, I'll do it as one and count it as a tie ;D

Sneak Attack - They are usually as fast as you, so you have to not only discard their protection, but also their kill. Can also be hidden very nice in a Brainstorm. Postboard, if they bring in Leylines, you're sailing with your eyes blindfolded, so clear win for Silence. I also like the option to chant them the turn they want to kill, as it's usually stronger to try and discard something.

RUG - Yeah, this is THE deck you want to chant. You can't hit everything with discard, as they usually are holding at least Stifle and another counterspell. So this can be really a pain in the ass. Of course, plus points for discard for not playing more wasteable lands.

You see, I can understand why one would want to stay with the discard plan. It has worked, it will again, but currently - and if you can proof me wrong, please do and I will jump the discard bandwagon - the most logical decission is to adapt to the situation and play the protection spell that hits most of your opponents spells and protects your combo the best.

mort-

[AlleywayJack]

The ANT deck that won GP Ghent played 8 distruption spells. TES plays 7. What's your point?

Grammar. Grammar. Grammar.

Also, people will take you seriously once you stop being such an asshat.

You're right. I feel like i may have been coming off stronger than i intended. If i offended anyone i'm sorry!

The only point i was trying to make was in response to

Tbh I have never seen a successful ANT list running 9 discard spells. I rather repeat the question of RandomGestures (sorry for skipping the caps-thing) and ask about the mindset to put more than 2 Playsets of Control elements in a Combo Deck, which WILL Slow you down, brick your hand or are complete deaddraws against permament-focused-Decks.

that playing 8-9 discard effects isn't necessarily a terrible thing

[Lemnear]

... and I gave you scenarios in which those overload of discard is harming your gameplan and TES CAN and DOES run a near equal amount of protection without bricking, something you ignore from the beginning

TES literally just can't run as much disruption, as it dilutes the deck so much, and the only TES is trying to do, is be faster.

Hope I catched enough flames and bold, false Statements to this point, that we can continue in a civilized manner

[Pdingo]

Well i know the answers but i was only intrestet what people here think about the BW/cantrip discussion.

It seems in the USA you see more UB ANT and in Europe more ANT with BW lists in the top 8.

[Lemnear]

There is always a red-Splash for PIF. I don't think an UB ANT is playable

[Pdingo]

I mean with UB ANT the UBr ANT(PiF), but you know that;)

[Lemnear]

I mean with UB ANT the UBr ANT(PiF), but you know that;)

Yep, but there once was a pure UB ANT with Iggy-Loop, which I still have in mind hearing "UB ANT" :)

[Asthereal]

Same here. That deck won the Dutch Nationals a couple of years back, and ever since the Dutch have called that deck 'Robbin ANT', after its pilot. Even though Robbin didn't actually invest the list. One of his teammates did, and reconed it wasn't optimal, so he opted to play something else and saw Robbin win the event.

It's actually pretty strong. We shouldn't discard that list too quickly.

[Lemnear]

Same here. That deck won the Dutch Nationals a couple of years back, and ever since the Dutch have called that deck 'Robbin ANT', after its pilot. Even though Robbin didn't actually invest the list. One of his teammates did, and reconed it wasn't optimal, so he opted to play something else and saw Robbin win the event.

It's actually pretty strong. We shouldn't discard that list too quickly.

Decks are never named by/after their inventor but the one who places with it in a grand tournament. I lol'd about the last sentence, because "discard" was the issue which the deck once faced before PIF came.

[jin]

TES literally justcan't run as much disruption, as it dilutes the deck so much

Additional burning wishes can [...] grab protection Out of the Sideboard (like Therapy).

This means that TES effectively plays 11 protection spells and thats... more.

Same here. That deck won the Dutch Nationals a couple of years back, and ever since the Dutch have called that deck 'Robbin ANT', after its pilot. Even though Robbin didn't actually invest the list. One of his teammates did, and reconed it wasn't optimal, so he opted to play something else and saw Robbin win the event.

It's actually pretty strong. We shouldn't discard that list too quickly.

Are you sure it wasn't Saito with City of Traitors main and Dark Confidants in the SB?

So, by pure strength, I'd rate them like CT > Duress > TS > IoK.

I would say: Duress > CT > TS > IoK

Duress can't be misdirected. It also has a much lower chance of completely missing its mark. Therapy is great, but it's not that hot game 1 when you are blind to their hand. Therapy is better than Thoughtseize because it makes Ad Nauseam better. 2 life is a lot. With Gitaxian Probe, the deck just takes too much damage. Thoughtseize can still get Force of Will and Mindbreak Trap. Inquisition sucks at that. I've lost because I couldn't pull out a Mindbreak trap before. That was annoying...

If you encounter Maverick (and it's game 1), you should just Brainstorm away some discard.

[Asthereal]

Yep, very sure. Robbin played these 75:

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual /18

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony /20

4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize /7

2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs /15

Side:
1 Tropical Island
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Doomsday
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn /15

The list obviously isn't very up-to-date (no Probes, weren't printed back then), but it's a nice list.
I've tried it at a tournament, and this is by far the easiest-to-play Storm list I've ever played.
City of Traitors is bad in ANT imho. It doesn't make blue, so your lovely consistent mana base goes out the window...

Edit: agree with you on the Duress > Cabal Therapy btw. Duress always works, Therapy needs either Probe or another discard spell to work, and you don't always get those, especially with my luck. Therapy gets better in lists that rely heavily on Empty the Warrens though. Blind Therapy on FoW. Misses. Then make 12 Goblins and sac one to get that answer they still had for your army.

[JamieW89]

This means that TES effectively plays 11 protection spells and thats... more.



Are you sure it wasn't Saito with City of Traitors main and Dark Confidants in the SB?

Robbin won the dutch nationals in 2010 with UB ANT playing 2 AdN, 4 IT as business (and the DD package for CB postboard) after the mystical ban. Saito played UB ANT with Mystical still legal. I've tried City of Traitors (and Crystal Vein) quite a while back but wasn't too impressed.

I would say: Duress > CT > TS > IoK

Duress can't be misdirected. It also has a much lower chance of completely missing its mark. Therapy is great, but it's not that hot game 1 when you are blind to their hand. Therapy is better than Thoughtseize because it makes Ad Nauseam better. 2 life is a lot. With Gitaxian Probe, the deck just takes too much damage. Thoughtseize can still get Force of Will and Mindbreak Trap. Inquisition sucks at that. I've lost because I couldn't pull out a Mindbreak trap before. That was annoying...

If you encounter Maverick (and it's game 1), you should just Brainstorm away some discard.

It's a matter of the metagame really. If there is loads of Maverick and other hatebear decks you'll want therapy or thoughtseize. If not, duress is by far the best MD discard. I would never even consider Inquisition MD in storm.

Regarding Silence

I've been playing UBw ANT lists for over two years, with the exception of GP Ghent when UBr was clearly better positioned (which turned out correct as Timo won the event with almost an identical MD as I failed with). For Strasbourg I'm not so sure if I want to play UB(g), UBw(g) or UBr (possibly even UBr(g), but sb space would be a problem).
Chant effects are really good versus RUG and the mirror, which I expect to be two very common matchups there. They are also fine in plenty of other matchups (being semi-timewalks at worst). I don't think a list with 7 chants is correct right now though, so I'll likely play 4-5 combined with 2-3 discard spells.

IGG also isn't as terrible as some people make it out to be. I'd play it every time if playing 7 chants, since LED is still your prime accelerant. With fewer chants PiF is better though.

Regarding TES

TES is faster, can more easily splash SB options, has wish versatility (not applicable for UBr ANT) and is better versed to make goblin tokens (UBr can once again do this fairly well).
ANT has a better manabase and better brainstorms in exchange for this. I believe it's better against discard as well (if we forget the speed for a second, which is relevant here too).

Splashing the green postboard is not a real issue since CB doesn't play wasteland usually, and if you board decays versus maverick-ish decks I board out white if I play UBw, so it's still 3 colors. If you want to play Swarms it's also fine since SnT/Reanimate decks don't play waste either and I don't even like swarms versus RUG right now.

While wish is versatile it's also a weak business spell at times.

Making goblins your main plan against some decks is really good but ANT can also board one empty without too much problems.

I don't think ANT is better than TES per sé, but I don't agree with the opposite either. It's a matter of preference to me.

[Lemnear]

This means that TES effectively plays 11 protection spells and thats... more.

Actually there are 2 Cabal Therapy you can wish for in Bryant's suggested Sample list so this math lacks; even more if you want to be picky and add infernal Tutor for Protection into your calc

The Beauty lies within the wishes, morphing from buisness into Protection on demand

[jin]

Edit: agree with you on the Duress > Cabal Therapy btw. Duress always works, Therapy needs either Probe or another discard spell to work, and you don't always get those, especially with my luck. Therapy gets better in lists that rely heavily on Empty the Warrens though. Blind Therapy on FoW. Misses. Then make 12 Goblins and sac one to get that answer they still had for your army.

Yep. Although some people are just really good and hit every single time. I'm not sure if that's luck or skill. Either way, I don't have it, so I play Duress.

Actually there are 2 Cabal Therapy you can wish for in Bryant's suggested Sample list so this math lacks; even more if you want to be picky and add infernal Tutor for Protection into your calc

The Beauty lies within the wishes, morphing from buisness into Protection on demand

Math wasn't my strength, but seriously.. who wishes for both Cabal Therapies? LOL. Post board, I usually board in 1x Cabal Therapy, so typically I only have 1 left in the SB.

Right, Infernal Tutor getting protection is quite common for me.

Robbin won the dutch nationals in 2010 with UB ANT playing 2 AdN, 4 IT as business (and the DD package for CB postboard) after the mystical ban. Saito played UB ANT with Mystical still legal. I've tried City of Traitors (and Crystal Vein) quite a while back but wasn't too impressed.

Thanks for clearing that up. Like I said, Saito DID play it first...

It's a matter of the metagame really. If there is loads of Maverick and other hatebear decks you'll want therapy or thoughtseize. If not, duress is by far the best MD discard. I would never even consider Inquisition MD in storm.

I think if it's mostly Maverick, you should just kill them with the inherent advantage your deck has. I wouldn't mess around with Thoughtseizes...

TES is faster, can more easily splash SB options, has wish versatility (not applicable for UBr ANT) and is better versed to make goblin tokens (UBr can once again do this fairly well).
ANT has a better manabase and better brainstorms in exchange for this. I believe it's better against discard as well (if we forget the speed for a second, which is relevant here too).

Splashing the green postboard is not a real issue since CB doesn't play wasteland usually, and if you board decays versus maverick-ish decks I board out white if I play UBw, so it's still 3 colors. If you want to play Swarms it's also fine since SnT/Reanimate decks don't play waste either and I don't even like swarms versus RUG right now.

While wish is versatile it's also a weak business spell at times.

Making goblins your main plan against some decks is really good but ANT can also board one empty without too much problems.

I don't think ANT is better than TES per sé, but I don't agree with the opposite either. It's a matter of preference to me.

Sorry, Wish is a what? I'm sorry, but Burning Wish is the closest card legacy has to Demonic Tutor. I would argue it is the best tutor in legacy (in the traditional sense. I'm not counting Doomsday here..) I also disagree with you in terms of the Discard match up. The only advantage ANT has over TES in the discard match up is you can play Cabal Ritual in to Ad Nauseam with 2 lands in play. TES would have to play Dark Ritual with 3 lands in play, or Dark Ritual + Rite of Flame. That said, TES have more outs to discard match up than ANT. TES plays all that ANT plays, plus Diminishing Returns. In this sense, I would argue that TES is better against discard than ANT. Of course, ANT fixes this problem with Dark Confidant, but that's not something TES can't play.

You also say that ANT has better mana base. Better is very subjective. You have more basics and more lands, but this is both a strength and a weakness.

[Lemnear]

History lesson

There's no use to debate about the "ANT is resiliant to Discard" Mantra some People repeat for the last 2 years. It was a basic feature to hook up players for the mystical tutor Version in which the sentence HAD substance, but then the Tutor got banned but the phrase remained which is still worth a laugh, 'cause it was due to mystical tutor's topdeck ability in response to discard not because of ANT itself

[JamieW89]

I think if it's mostly Maverick, you should just kill them with the inherent advantage your deck has. I wouldn't mess around with Thoughtseizes...

You're still going to play protection spells, why not play those that are better against popular decks while still being solid versus blue? Turn-2 hatebear can be quite the problematic play for ANT game-1.

Sorry, Wish is a what? I'm sorry, but Burning Wish is the closest card legacy has to Demonic Tutor. I would argue it is the best tutor in legacy (in the traditional sense. I'm not counting Doomsday here..)

Except that it doesn't find acceleration, doesn't find Ad Nauseam and doesn't win by finding PiF/IGG without another tutor. Not saying Grim Tutor is better, since it's also pretty weak, but I find Infernal a much better tutor in the current tutor-based storm decks, despite Wish having more versatility.

You also say that ANT has better mana base. Better is very subjective. You have more basics and more lands, but this is both a strength and a weakness.

Maybe I should have formulated that differently, since TES' manabase obviously has advantages too (less susceptible to stifle & easier to fix colors), and Moxen over lands gives you explosiveness with the drawback of drawing multiple moxen.

Discard

I'll drop the discard argument. I like cabal ritual, the solid manabase with improved cantrips, PiF and SB options such as Confidant and Divert in those matchups, but I don't think there's much point in arguing this.

[Lemnear]

Except that it doesn't find acceleration, doesn't find Ad Nauseam and doesn't win by finding PiF/IGG without another tutor. Not saying Grim Tutor is better, since it's also pretty weak, but I find Infernal a much better tutor in the current tutor-based storm decks, despite Wish having more versatility.

-snip-

I'll drop the discard argument. I like cabal ritual, the solid manabase with improved cantrips, PiF and SB options such as Confidant and Divert in those matchups, but I don't think there's much point in arguing this.

My local Judge and crowd aren't ok with me Running 8 Infernals so I have to use Wish in addition *shrug*

improved Sideboard Space and solid manabase ARE arguments for UB(r) ANT, no doubt. No one will question this and neither was topic for the last 3 pages. It was the "solid manabase" argument for 4c/5c ANT's (Silence, Abrupt Decay, Xantid Swarms, whatever else) which forced Rainbow Lands into the deck