[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[Razorwynd]

2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Jace the Mind Sculptor

I think 20 blue cards is about as low as I would go with force main... Also the average cc is a little too high to support the damage from dark confidant and thoughtzeize.

[Amazing Larry]

I think 20 blue cards is about as low as I would go with force main... Also the average cc is a little too high to support the damage from dark confidant and thoughtzeize.

Eh, Esper-blade typically only runs 18ish blue cards, I have not had a problem having enough blue with 17 Maindeck. As for Thoughtseize, yeah you might want to run a split of 2 Inquisition/2 Thoughtseize if you run into a lot of aggro (especially Jund or other red aggro). 4 Thoughtseizes is a meta call for me, lots of combo where Inquisition just does not cut it.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Eh, Esper-blade typically only runs 18ish blue cards, I have not had a problem having enough blue with 17 Maindeck. As for Thoughtseize, yeah you might want to run a split of 2 Inquisition/2 Thoughtseize if you run into a lot of aggro (especially Jund or other red aggro). 4 Thoughtseizes is a meta call for me, lots of combo where Inquisition just does not cut it.

In an opening 7 card hand, 1.98 of those cards will be blue on average. That number is 2.57 with 22 blue cards. I don't know if that means much, but alls I knows is... You start to get pretty greedy under 20 cards. 20 blue cards gives you an average of 2 blue cards in a 6 card hand which seems fine.

[The Treefolk Master]

I think 20 blue cards is about as low as I would go with force main... Also the average cc is a little too high to support the damage from dark confidant and thoughtzeize.

I agree with both statements. You could also solve the problem by replacing Bob with Baleful Strix. It cantrips, so its never dead, doubles as creature removal and pitches to FoW.

[Razorwynd]

I agree with both statements. You could also solve the problem by replacing Bob with Baleful Strix. It cantrips, so its never dead, doubles as creature removal and pitches to FoW.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me... Maybe even -4 bob +1 snapcaster +3 strix

[Patrunkenphat7]

I think those changes would make his deck significantly worse against everything but fast aggro. I actually like his list if he could work in more blue cards. I don't think you can run 4 Thoughtseize in a Force/Bob deck - I think that can go down to 2 Inquisition which is a better card against the field since it is actually very good against RUG Delver and still reasonable in most matchups. There is no problem running Force and Jace in a Bob deck; Force is actually extremely synergistic with Bob. Just up the blue count and throw some of the Thoughtseizes in the SB. I would also only run 1 Disfigure max maindeck, so that shores up 3 blue spell slots that you can give to cards like Daze, Spell Snare, Ponder/Preordain or a single Baleful Strix.

I am pretty much describing my list which is also on the previous page.

[Amazing Larry]

Yeah, if the blue count is really an issue, certainly a Ponder or two could be added in place of something. However cutting Bob for Strix is no good. Strix simply does not deal enough damage, and there's really no room for Equipment to make Strix a threat. Strix is also not a must-answer card, while Bob most definitely is. If you're cutting Bob from this build, might as well replace him with a few more removals and maybe a Vendilion Clique mainboard. I did try a build sans Bob, I think it had 2 Ponders, a Clique, and another Disfigure or Dismember in those slots. That brings the blue count to 20 MD, but at the cost of Bob. Like I've said, I honestly have had no issue running around 18 blue cards in either Esper or this build, but I can see why one might want to run a list that's a little less tight for extra FoW fodder.

[Adryan]

After playing a lot with various BUG decks i present to you my final list for the upcoming Legacy Grand Prix in Strassbourg:

Creatures (3)

3 Snapcaster Mage

Planeswakerz (4)

4 Jace TMS

Sorceries (10)

3 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
2 Life from the Loam
1 Damnation

Instants (

4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

Enchantments (6)

4 Standstill
2 Pernicous Deed

Lands (24)

4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Mishras Factory
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:

3 Tarmogoyf
2 Perish
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dread of Night
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Surgical Extraction

This version has the best matchup of all current BUG Builds against Tempo Decks, Jund and Esperblade.
The first thing you will notice and the biggest difference in comparison with other BUG Control Decks is the absence of Deathrite Shaman.
Against Jund and Tempo Decks Deathrite Shaman will be the only real target they have, so in many games he will bring no value.

One of the major weakness many BUG Builds have is Liliana. When they stick Liliana and make you sacrifice a Creature you will have to trade 2:1. But for a large event you also have to play FoW which is also bad against Jund. And after so many bad tradings with opposing threaths BBE will seal their victory.

Another problem is that they will have much more removal for your creatures than you have. So with a traditional BUG list with Creatures you are going to lose the attrition war. Everyone who played enough against Jund will agree with that.

My solution:

1. no Creatures
2. play cheap removal
3. mass removal
4. Win with Life from the loam & Jace
5. play Standstill, to improve Force of Will and make CA because when played correctly your opponent has to break Standstill. Always.

This list doesn't care about Liliana 90 % of the time. The Jund player will discard more important stuff than you, especially with Life from the Loam.
Another thing you will notice is the absence of Liliana. Liliana is a very good card in BUG Control, especially with Life from the Loam.
The reasons why i don't play her:

1. Against tempo decks you need a cheap removal, casting Liliana on turn 4 or 5 to avoid Daze or Spell Pierce or even Turn 3 is not the situation you want to be against tempo. So i prefer Innocent Blood.
2. Deathrite Shaman. He's never going to stick more than one turn. Discard him or remove him. Liliana can't do that in a reasonable time frame.
3. Abrupt Decay. A small reason. I really like that my list has no targets.

That's it for now. I could write much more but i don't know how many people are interested. I'm not completely happy with the SB. I will play enough on mtgo and offline the following weeks to improve it. Maybe i'll add a deed or Bitterblossom. Bitterblossom really likes fighting against Lingering Souls :D

Thank you very much for reading and i appreciate your feedback

[BrazenSix]

In a meta infested with RUG and UR Delver, Sneak and Show and a bit of Miracles, would you guys recommend sculpting a BUG Control list? or going for the more tempo BUG Delver list?

[Amazing Larry]

In a meta infested with RUG and UR Delver, Sneak and Show and a bit of Miracles, would you guys recommend sculpting a BUG Control list? or going for the more tempo BUG Delver list?

Probably BUG Delver to be honest. I love the fast clock provided by Delver against combo decks, and BUG has a good game against RUG typically. UR Delver is tough as they can just burn through you quickly, but UR is an even worse match-up for BUG control.

[BrazenSix]

Probably BUG Delver to be honest. I love the fast clock provided by Delver against combo decks, and BUG has a good game against RUG typically. UR Delver is tough as they can just burn through you quickly, but UR is an even worse match-up for BUG control.

Ok, thanks. That was what I was leaning a bit more towards anyways. Plus the aggro/tempo is a bit more of my play style.

[Viridia]

After playing a lot with various BUG decks i present to you my final list for the upcoming Legacy Grand Prix in Strassbourg:

Creatures (3)

3 Snapcaster Mage

Planeswakerz (4)

4 Jace TMS

Sorceries (10)

3 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
2 Life from the Loam
1 Damnation

Instants (

4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

Enchantments (6)

4 Standstill
2 Pernicous Deed

Lands (24)

4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Mishras Factory
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:

3 Tarmogoyf
2 Perish
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dread of Night
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Surgical Extraction

This version has the best matchup of all current BUG Builds against Tempo Decks, Jund and Esperblade.
The first thing you will notice and the biggest difference in comparison with other BUG Control Decks is the absence of Deathrite Shaman.
Against Jund and Tempo Decks Deathrite Shaman will be the only real target they have, so in many games he will bring no value.

One of the major weakness many BUG Builds have is Liliana. When they stick Liliana and make you sacrifice a Creature you will have to trade 2:1. But for a large event you also have to play FoW which is also bad against Jund. And after so many bad tradings with opposing threaths BBE will seal their victory.

Another problem is that they will have much more removal for your creatures than you have. So with a traditional BUG list with Creatures you are going to lose the attrition war. Everyone who played enough against Jund will agree with that.

My solution:

1. no Creatures
2. play cheap removal
3. mass removal
4. Win with Life from the loam & Jace
5. play Standstill, to improve Force of Will and make CA because when played correctly your opponent has to break Standstill. Always.

This list doesn't care about Liliana 90 % of the time. The Jund player will discard more important stuff than you, especially with Life from the Loam.
Another thing you will notice is the absence of Liliana. Liliana is a very good card in BUG Control, especially with Life from the Loam.
The reasons why i don't play her:

1. Against tempo decks you need a cheap removal, casting Liliana on turn 4 or 5 to avoid Daze or Spell Pierce or even Turn 3 is not the situation you want to be against tempo. So i prefer Innocent Blood.
2. Deathrite Shaman. He's never going to stick more than one turn. Discard him or remove him. Liliana can't do that in a reasonable time frame.
3. Abrupt Decay. A small reason. I really like that my list has no targets.

That's it for now. I could write much more but i don't know how many people are interested. I'm not completely happy with the SB. I will play enough on mtgo and offline the following weeks to improve it. Maybe i'll add a deed or Bitterblossom. Bitterblossom really likes fighting against Lingering Souls :D

Thank you very much for reading and i appreciate your feedback

You might want to move this list into the UBG landstill thread, considering that that's just a landstill list rather then TA Control :-)

[Will_L]

Won't have the opportunity to test in any meaningful way for an upcoming tournament this 30th. If anyone with experience with this deck wouldn't mind giving my some input on the list and my questions I would really appreciate it.

I have not been happy with the pure control version of this deck with 0-4 creatures, Deeds and durdley stuff. I wanted to try and make a BUG midrange deck that has the ability to close out games better then Esper, while having just as permission and utility. One of my concerns about this style of BUG control deck is that I don't know if what I have here is just worse than Jund (since they are both midrange decks with control elements)

BUG Midrange

x1 Ghastly Demise
x1 Life from the Loam
x1 Counterspell
x2 Spell Pierce
x3 Thoughtseize
x4 Abrupt Decay
x4 Force of Will
x4 Brainstorm

x2 Liliana of the Veil
x3 Jace the Mindsculptor

x4 Tarmogoyf
x4 Deathrite Shaman
x3 Baleful Strix
x2 Snapcaster Mage

x3 Island/Swamp/Forest
x4 Wasteland
x8 Fetchlands
x4 Sea
x2 Bayou
x1 Tropical Island


- I know this has been discussed before, but pertaining specifically to BUG midrange, which do you think is better MD Hymn or FoW?

- Is x4 Decay x1 Demise early removal to be able to stabilize with Lili / Strixs against creature decks?

- I really want to play Clique MD. It's a great clock and is very strong against combo. Does anybody have any suggestions on how to fit x2 Cliques in?

- Is Ponder really needed that badly in this kind of deck? I see it in most Control/Midrange lists... but it seems kind of meh and the list feels so tight already.

[Adryan]

You might want to move this list into the UBG landstill thread, considering that that's just a landstill list rather then TA Control :-)

For me it's a TA Control list that plays Standstill ;-) Jund is the best midrange deck, and all the other BUG lists (except maybe Shardless Agent) fail to beat Jund with conistency. My list is capable of beating Jund with conistency, and Standstill is one of the reasons.

Won't have the opportunity to test in any meaningful way for an upcoming tournament this 30th. If anyone with experience with this deck wouldn't mind giving my some input on the list and my questions I would really appreciate it.

I have not been happy with the pure control version of this deck with 0-4 creatures, Deeds and durdley stuff. I wanted to try and make a BUG midrange deck that has the ability to close out games better then Esper, while having just as permission and utility. One of my concerns about this style of BUG control deck is that I don't know if what I have here is just worse than Jund (since they are both midrange decks with control elements)



- I know this has been discussed before, but pertaining specifically to BUG midrange, which do you think is better MD Hymn or FoW?

- Is x4 Decay x1 Demise early removal to be able to stabilize with Lili / Strixs against creature decks?

- I really want to play Clique MD. It's a great clock and is very strong against combo. Does anybody have any suggestions on how to fit x2 Cliques in?

- Is Ponder really needed that badly in this kind of deck? I see it in most Control/Midrange lists... but it seems kind of meh and the list feels so tight already.

Jund is a bad matchup for your deck. No problem when you don't expect many Jund decks.

Life from the Loam should be played in your SB. Against Deathrite Shaman decks it will do almosth nothing because you don't have enough removal to kill their Deathrite Shaman. You will need your removal for Tarmogoyfs/Baleful Strix/Dark Confidant/ Liliana etc.

So cut Life and 1 Force of Will for 2 MD Clique and move these two cards to the SB.

If you want to be better against Combo you should play FoW, if you want to be better against fair decks you should play Hymn to Tourach.

Ponder is personal preference. If you want to improve consistency you can play it. I mean you play Controlcards and Midrangecards, Ponder helps you dig for these cards when you need them.

Your deck will have problems against T1 Lackey/Mother of Runes on the draw. If you care about that, play Dismember, Engineered Plague or sweepers in your SB.

[sdematt]

I ran this list (I know, it has Standstill, but I'm just saying) last Thursday to a 1st place finish:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Cabal Pit

4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Standstill

4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Disfigure
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

--BOARD--

2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Plague
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Golgari Charm
2 Chill
1 Perish
2 Vendilion Clique

fun to play and seemed very strong. BUG Delver was a back and forth matchup, but by playing around Daze and just having infinite creature removal you're on good footing.

-Matt

[Reagens]

@Matt

I have a few questions on your list.
Why no Liliana? Is there no room for her or does she have to little synergy with the rest of the deck?

If you were to play this deck in a more combo oriented vs control metagame what slots would you cut for what? I'm thinking for example the third deed could be considered overkill.

[Megadeus]

Eh, Esper-blade typically only runs 18ish blue cards, I have not had a problem having enough blue with 17 Maindeck. As for Thoughtseize, yeah you might want to run a split of 2 Inquisition/2 Thoughtseize if you run into a lot of aggro (especially Jund or other red aggro). 4 Thoughtseizes is a meta call for me, lots of combo where Inquisition just does not cut it.

There are a lot of times where I play TES against Esper Blade and they keep a hand with force but no blue card, or I can just strip their blue card and leave their force useless in their hand.

[Darkness]

Just went 6-0 at Small LGS 14 people tournament playing Gerry T's 75 minus Hymn in board for FoW. Report coming up tomorrow or Monday.

[Razorwynd]

Just went 6-0 at Small LGS 14 people tournament playing Gerry T's 75 minus Hymn in board for FoW. Report coming up tomorrow or Monday.

There is a thread for shardless BUG already. Unfortunately it is still in development because very few people are actually talking about the deck. Please post your report there.

Edit: you seem to have found it.

[Goosen]

I can not understand why this is a DTB, have not posted any good result for ages. I think the Shardless Agent deck results are counted to this thread.