The remark about infernal being better was a response to his claim that Wish is the best tutor in legacy. I know we need to supplement IT's, and Wish is one of the two logical options.Originally Posted by Lemnear
The thing is UBr with wishes and UBw with Grim Tutor can both splash Decays without making the manabase terrible since the matchup you mainly want them in doesn't play wasteland. It's more problematic in UBr since it would have to go 4 colors against hatebear decks since it cannot board out red (UBw changes into UBg, which keeps the manabase solid enough) and neither does it really have the SB space to play Decays and Chain of Vapors.
If you were to transform into a deck with 4 colors MD and rainbow lands I'd rather play TES (or Doomsday without the rainbow lands) myself as well. For the same reason I'd only really play Xantid Swarm (and possibly Carpet of Flowers) in the straight UB(g) version.
37th GP Ams'11 | 80th GP Stras '13 | 5th BoM Paris '13 | 12th GP Lille '15
Who says we desperately need the Decays in ANT anyway?
Only against CounterTop they are an absolute must, but Miracles seems on its return anyway.
In a meta full of Jund, Junk and Show&Tell decks, UBr seems just fine. No need to splash more.
Something like this perhaps:
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony /22
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual /17
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy /7
2 Underground sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire /14
Side:
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm / Grapeshot
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth /15
Or maybe some REBs/Pyroblasts in the side somewhere. Looks fine to me.
I know about your intention in case of Infernal, which I agree with. Just made a lil' joke in a dust-dry discussion ;)
The second paragraph is important, because I don't consider a list with 2-3 Wishes, Decays, Swarms, 2 Gemstone, 1-2 Volcanics, 1 Tropical and 2-3 U.Seas a deck with stable manabase postboard. You can't have everything without sacrifice
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You are playing a spell that will take 3 life from your life total off of Ad Nauseam. I don't consider that stronger at all. I'd play Cabal Therapy before Thoughtseize. If you play Thoughtseize before Ad Nauseam, you just lost a few cards to draw. That sucks. If you are not trying to win off of Ad Nauseam versus hate bears, then I don't know what this deck is trying to do.
Half the deck is mana. Why on Earth would you need to tutor for acceleration? I'm sorry, but without LED, Infernal Tutor is often not a tutor. It might as well be a Cantrip. Infernal Tutor only finds Ad Nauseam. Burning Wish can find so much more. Burning Wish also doesn't require emptying your hand (HEHE, pun intended)
You may also use WipeAway + Discard.
I believe I mentioned both Thoughtseize and Therapy in my earlier post. In either case, this deck is NOT an Ad Nauseam deck, it's a PiF(/IGG) deck, unlike TES which relies much more on quick Ad Nauseams (and EtW).
Sometimes it happens that you're short on acceleration. A second tutor can add storm and mana by finding extra cabal rituals or LEDs, which is certainly not irrelevant. Infernal also (actually mainly) finds your graveyard engine, which is the main way of killing your opponent. Burning Wish, on its own, does not (where Grim Tutor does). Not to mention that Infernal Tutors can chain to reach lethal storm naturally quite commonly.
But this argument adds nothing to this topic. Everyone agrees that 4 Infernal Tutors are correct, it's the Wish/Grim Tutor that requires discussion. So I'll leave it here.
Yes, although it is strictly worse.
Yes, I agree that UBr is probably better than UBrg (some small nuances: I don't like the Reforge the Soul and Echoing Truths and I would probably play a 15th land, but that is not the main point). I do prefer the Decays in the Grim Tutor (UB or UBw) versions though. Counterbalance is still a real card, which is also hard to beat.
To start a new 'debate': What do you guys think about the MUD matchup? I've lost to it a fair bit the past couple of years in important matches and I'm not quite sure if I'm ready to ignore it with my sideboard.. On the other hand, even with a few Hurkyl's Recalls/Serenity it will still not become positive and the matchup isn't that common. (Assuming a list without red, with the extra sideboard space.)
37th GP Ams'11 | 80th GP Stras '13 | 5th BoM Paris '13 | 12th GP Lille '15
Any deck that is adding acceleration to speed it up is also making its late game weaker. ANT has a better late game and better mulligans. It has more lands and doesn't worry about top decking junk like Chrome Mox. Preordain is unnecessarily durdly and the flexibility of Burning Wish is too good. These days, the only real differences between TES and ANT are Chrome Mox/Rite of Flame verses Cabal Ritual/more land and Silence verses more discard.
When playing against a deck that is proactively trying to disrupt us (ie Counterbalance and discard), I would much rather be proactive with discard myself. Against something like RUG that runs a lot of condition and reactive counter magic, I'd rather be running Silence.
The decks are so similar that arguing over these little things is fairly useless. Some of it comes down to play style. A lot of it comes down to expected meta. It'd be much more constructive to talk about matchups, sideboarding, and tech rather than whose pet storm build is better than whose.
If MUD gets a good hand, ie t1 Chalice or Trinisphere then I see potential problems, but MUD is a lot slower and mulligans a lot worse and if we are able to fire off discard then it should roll over. Abrupt Decay isn't bad here, but I'd be wary of Wasteland.
Adding to the tutor discussion here. If you put an Infernal Tutor in the board, it makes your burning wishes much more versatile. Granted tutoring for a tutor is slow as balls but I can see it being quite a good idea siding out one Infernal against slower decks to give you more options. It's at least worth a try I would think.
EDIT- I know slow decks aren't problematic matchups. But it can't hurt to make matchups better.
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Any one tried Sylvan Library instead of Dark Confidants in the board? Tried it today, it seemed very solid in the Miracles matchup at least :).
I was under the impression that Burning Wish ANT variants always played some form of tutor in the board, usually Grim Tutor, so they could find Ad Naus with Burning Wish. In a deck with Cabal Ritual, I really don't think it's unrealistic.
In TES, we quite often board out an Infernal for another piece of protection in the U matchups, especially the ones with Surgical, and Wishing for Tutor for Ad Naus definitely has come up for me. We don't need to have a million mana floating to make AN viable though.
Stoyrm - I'm surprised you're not happy with Bob against Miracles. I hear good things about Confidant from both good ANT and CB players (or should I say, very very bad things from the CB player!)
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They don't have all to many cards to side in against us, so they usually leave some terminus or swords in, as well as they actually have time to play a long game where they can actually Jace bounce him. We started with 3 bobs, shifted out one for a Library. Then shifted to two libraries. The libraries were amazing all day, Dark Confidant was mediocre (actually, there was one game where the Bob was amazing, but i doubt it would have mattered whether it was a library).
wow, Ad Nauseam Tendrils is the SCG's champion for this week!
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=54221
congratulations to Grant Wilkinson!
I notice he has 1 tendrils in the sideboard(but running no Burning Wish), someone plz tell me why?
Sometimes people run a second tendrils in the board to hedge against matchups like burn or the tempo decks. It also increases the chances of getting and setting up a natural Tendrils.
When I played ANT, I boarded in a Tendrils and Bobs to try to turn into Tendrils Aggro against decks lots of permission. It didn't really work, though...it's still pretty hard to find 2 Tendrils or get enough storm. Maybe he was trying to do something similar, but without Confidant?
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You really shouldn't put an Infernal Tutor in the board -- it's the card you're most often digging for in any game, you really want to have 4 of them main. If you really need a tutor in the board, run Grim Tutor -- both IT and GT kind of suck off BW anyway, since it takes infinite mana to do anything productive with that line.
Against slower decks is kind of nice to be able to board in a second Tendrils -- I find pretty often my line against decks with infinite counter magic is to just draw up to 8 spells and natural tendrils them. I don't think it's good enough usually to be worth the slot (there are other things that are better here, like a Snapcaster or something). It looks like that list is the same as the Prosak's from Starcity, so it could just be there because he couldn't find anything better.
The second Tendrils is for discard decks. Grant played Prosak's list.
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I started playtesting with Prosak's list yesterday and accidentally put the 2nd Tendrils in the sb. While playing I realized I actually needed it, especially against decks that would sometimes discard my lone Tendrils and then eat it with Shaman *nomnomnom*.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
That seems more like an argument for Burning Wish than an argument for (yet another) card that makes your Ad Nauseams worse.
Is anyone on the Source a fan of Prosack's list? I really don't understand its appeal.
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Haven't made up my mind yet. My intuition tells me to go with Burning Wish. That's why I decided to go with Prosak's built first to fall back to TNT in case I don't like the wishless solution he keeps promoting.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Playing without Wishes is really scary. Being completely cold to stuff like Earwig Squad, discard on Tendrils + Shaman ability or Extirpate is not cool. Wish also gives you outs like Empty the Warrens and Diminishing Returns (not good at all without Moxes).
Are they a crutch or a point for flexibility?
It just seems odd that everyone here hates it so much, and yet it is the list that keeps doing well at larger events. Is it just because of the cantrips adding consistency to the gameplan? Also His version doesnt seem very difficult to pilot either.
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