[Deck] Dredge

[TerribleTim68]

I just want to say this, take it for what it's worth -
Far too often we jump to conclusions about situations we don't know the whole facts about. This seems like a prime example of that. Instead of critisizing someone's play when we weren't standing next to them ot hear what they said first hand, let's stick to helping each other build better decklists and play tighter. I think we can all agree that the proper choice there was RiP. Ok, so he bricked and the guy peeled it off the top right after that. That's teh way this game goes some times. But I can promise you, the next time I'm in that situation, I'll be naming RiP because of what I learned right there. Let's focus on that simple fact and leave out the "crappy player" part until we have ALL the facts first hand, shall we?

[IrishLegend]

This thread has been quiet for a little while. I've been lurking this thread for sometime now and was hoping I could get your guys opinion on a deck I plan on taking into a tournament this weekend with an unknown meta. This is what I have been goldfishing/ testing with. I really like the Dread Return/ Flayer of the Hatebound in the deck, and like the idea of the ashen ghouls in the sideboard. Like I said I would like your guys opinions about the deck and hear you thoughts. Is it even a smart idea to take dredge into an unknown meta?

Main Deck List
13 LANDS
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel

22 CREATURES
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
3 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

17 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
4 Careful Study

8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below

SIDEBOARD
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Ichorid
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Land
4 Natures Claim
4 Leyline of the Void

Sideboard Plan
Ghoul Plan:
OUT
4 Lions Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
IN
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Ichorid

Nature Claim Plan:
OUT
4 Lion Eye Diamond
1 Putrid Imp
1 Faithless Looting
IN
4 Nature Claim
2 Tarnished Citadel

Leyline of the Void Plan:
OUT
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Putrid Imp
1 Faithless Looting
1 Cabal Therapy
IN
4 Leyline of the Void

Natures Claim / Leyline of the Void Plan
OUT
4 Lion Eye Diamond
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Golgari Thug
1 Putrid Imp
1 Faithless Looting
1 Breakthrough
IN
4 Natures Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Tarnished Citadel

[TerribleTim68]

. . . Is it even a smart idea to take dredge into an unknown meta?. . .

I think it can be. If you play solid you just might come out up top, you do have the advantage of catching unprepared players off guard. The big advantage is dodging all that control crap with a deck that doesn't interact so much. Nothing wrong with that plan. You just have to accept that there will be graveyard hate of some sort and figure out how to play around it on the fly. But yea, it can work just fine.

[feline]

This thread has been quiet for a little while. I've been lurking this thread for sometime now and was hoping I could get your guys opinion on a deck I plan on taking into a tournament this weekend with an unknown meta.

taking into a tournament this weekend with an unknown meta.
taking into a tournament this weekend with an unknown meta.
taking into a tournament this weekend with an unknown meta.

That is when Dredge is so much fun, they won't see it coming that 1st time and be like "OH CRAP ARE YOU PLAYING DREDGE!" (sorry Tim, I'll just never forget it, at least I can laugh at myself.)

Anyhow, yes it is smart to take dredge to an unknown meta, because of just that, you'll win games because people will not see it coming and some will even be unprepared. If the unknown meta turns out to be graveyard hate light, then you'll cause a metagame shift and people will be like "looks like its time to start packing the graveyard hate again for our local store"

When I had dredge, the times I enjoyed playing it most was when it was least expected, and if I played at a "new unknown metagame" constantly, I would have kept my dredge deck, but that requires going to a "new local game store" every weekend and, eventually you run out of new local stores.

[FTW]

I've been trying out the new lists and I'm not a fan. My understanding is that Dredge HAS to win game 1 to be competitive. We concoct elaborate sideboard strategies to dodge hate, but our lives are so much easier if we can run away with the pre-board match before the hate comes in. That's when our deck is most efficient and when the opponent has the fewest tools to interact with our gameplan. I realize maindeck DRS changes this somewhat, but DRS is still slow and we can try to dodge it with sheer speed. Anyway, this is how I've always played Dredge - to maximize the chance of a game 1 win. I don't see how the new builds help with that.

In particular:
2 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Griselbrand
0 Flamekin Zealot
0 Sphinx of Lost Truths

Before the days of Flayer, I would always play with 3 Dread Return + 1 Zealot + 1-2 Sphinx maindeck. What this meant is that if you ever "combo off" with a Breakthrough or Faithless Looting, you are pretty much guaranteed to hit gas and can Dread Return into more draw/discard until you mill most of your library and can Zealot FTW. Those builds were set up so if you can ever dredge 18+ cards in one turn, then you usually just hit enough gas to chain off and outright win immediately. I find that isn't so with the newer builds. I can Looting + LED + flashback Looting and dredge 24 and then have to pass the turn and wait for Ichorids/Ghouls to come online.

Sure, you set up Ichorids a few turns down the road and might be able to Cabal Therapy once or twice, playing for some incremental advantage. But where is the explosiveness?

I like the Flayer kill. It dodges the combat step, Elephant Grass and friends, and so much more. The problem is, for it to be a 1-turn kill, you need double Dread Return: Return on Flayer and then Return on a Grave-Troll to deal the rest. With only 2 Dread Returns in the deck, this is not easy. It is much lower probability to see both Dread Returns and Flayer than it was in the old build to see 1 of 3 Returns and either a Flamekin or Sphinx. That means comboing off in one turn is less consistent. And you have no way to get gas. If you are trying to combo off, there is 0 point in Dread Returning Griselbrand to dredge the rest of your deck because then you are guaranteed to only have 1 Dread Return left and cannot possibly win this turn. I guess you can just make Zombies and leave up Griselbrand and threaten a lethal attack, but that just seems too open to tampering. The Flamekin+Sphinx builds let you chain and close the game off that very turn.

So how do you guys play around that and make the Flayer version work for you? Do you just play slower, incremental games and avoid the "flip library over. confuse opponent. win" aspect? Do you avoid "comboing out" and just deal slow damage with zombies and Ichorid until Flayer on its own is lethal? Do you increase the number of Dread Returns?

[Final Fortune]

I've been trying out the new lists and I'm not a fan. My understanding is that Dredge HAS to win game 1 to be competitive. We concoct elaborate sideboard strategies to dodge hate, but our lives are so much easier if we can run away with the pre-board match before the hate comes in. That's when our deck is most efficient and when the opponent has the fewest tools to interact with our gameplan. I realize maindeck DRS changes this somewhat, but DRS is still slow and we can try to dodge it with sheer speed. Anyway, this is how I've always played Dredge - to maximize the chance of a game 1 win. I don't see how the new builds help with that.

In particular:
2 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Griselbrand
0 Flamekin Zealot
0 Sphinx of Lost Truths

Before the days of Flayer, I would always play with 3 Dread Return + 1 Zealot + 1-2 Sphinx maindeck. What this meant is that if you ever "combo off" with a Breakthrough or Faithless Looting, you are pretty much guaranteed to hit gas and can Dread Return into more draw/discard until you mill most of your library and can Zealot FTW. Those builds were set up so if you can ever dredge 18+ cards in one turn, then you usually just hit enough gas to chain off and outright win immediately. I find that isn't so with the newer builds. I can Looting + LED + flashback Looting and dredge 24 and then have to pass the turn and wait for Ichorids/Ghouls to come online.

Sure, you set up Ichorids a few turns down the road and might be able to Cabal Therapy once or twice, playing for some incremental advantage. But where is the explosiveness?

I like the Flayer kill. It dodges the combat step, Elephant Grass and friends, and so much more. The problem is, for it to be a 1-turn kill, you need double Dread Return: Return on Flayer and then Return on a Grave-Troll to deal the rest. With only 2 Dread Returns in the deck, this is not easy. It is much lower probability to see both Dread Returns and Flayer than it was in the old build to see 1 of 3 Returns and either a Flamekin or Sphinx. That means comboing off in one turn is less consistent. And you have no way to get gas. If you are trying to combo off, there is 0 point in Dread Returning Griselbrand to dredge the rest of your deck because then you are guaranteed to only have 1 Dread Return left and cannot possibly win this turn. I guess you can just make Zombies and leave up Griselbrand and threaten a lethal attack, but that just seems too open to tampering. The Flamekin+Sphinx builds let you chain and close the game off that very turn.

So how do you guys play around that and make the Flayer version work for you? Do you just play slower, incremental games and avoid the "flip library over. confuse opponent. win" aspect? Do you avoid "comboing out" and just deal slow damage with zombies and Ichorid until Flayer on its own is lethal? Do you increase the number of Dread Returns?

I don't think Dread Return packages are the way to deal with a metagame defined by Deathrite Shamans and to a lesser extent MD RIPs, and while we can't really change our deck in any way to deal with MD RIPs, Firestorm seems ridiculously good in the current metagame

[FTW]

I don't think Dread Return packages are the way to deal with a metagame defined by Deathrite Shamans and to a lesser extent MD RIPs, and while we can't really change our deck in any way to deal with MD RIPs, Firestorm seems ridiculously good in the current metagame

This makes sense. I just find without the package I end up not winning as many game 1s against random.dec. I get that it stops us from getting blown out by DRS as much, but shouldn't we be trying to win our other matches too? Do you find the lack of explosive win affects your other matches? How do you deal with it? Could Firestorm blowing out their board or the Ghoul plan be an answer?

Yeah, I'm loving 4 Firestorm in the SB. Would you run them main?

[igri_is_a_bk]

This makes sense. I just find without the package I end up not winning as many game 1s against random.dec.

This is just because you haven't had the experience yet. There are still some decisions about combat that dredge players regularly mess up. Being intimately familiar with your deck is probably the biggest strength you can have in a legacy tournament. I played this deck for 3 years straight, as an example, and it paid off. You'll learn what to name with Therapy, when to block with whom, how to play around hate, etc.

Yeah, I'm loving 4 Firestorm in the SB. Would you run them main?

I understand Firestorm kills DRS, but siding those in means you side out LED. You cannot have LED and Firestorm in the same 60, to answer your question about running them in the main. My reservation about playing Firestorm at all is that being proactive with LED will win you more games than Firestorm will prevent you from losing. DRS is handled by an LED start, or any hand with Study/Looting/Pimp and two dredgers. Hell, turn one Breakthrough for x=0 can beat DRS.

[Dravus Mallinard]

Hello Again,

I would like to make an small report about the Legacy side tournament that had occured during the last GP Rio de janeiro.

The prize of this tournament was nothing more nothing less than 1 blue mox + 2 boxes of gatecrash to the first place, as well as other things till position 16th.

I didnt study the current metagame that much, and I decided to play my LED Dredge (with Flayer pack) because I like to play with it.

The matches were as following:
round 1: vs. Omni & Show (2 - 0)
round 2: vs. RIP Miracle (2 - 1) ... I lost G1, due to a turn 2 RIP
round 3: vs. BUG (1 - 2) ... I played wrong in G2. I could have removed his Jitte with therapy and I misscalculated the impact of this decision, than jitte dominated the board.
round 4: vs. The Rock (2 - 0) ... Even his early DRS couldnt stop my fast hand in both games.
round 5: vs. Dragon Stompy (2 - 0) ... firs time I play agains this deck, but it seems to be an easy game
round 6: vs. RIP Miracle (1 - 2) ... RIP forced me to play really slow (ataking with narcomoebas and imps just)... i could win one of the games, but even pos-SB this is really an unfair match-up.

Summary of my fellings:
Life is not that easy as in the past, but we can fight deathrite shaman. The increase of RIP Miracles in the metagame is our main disadvantage. I recognize I didnt prepare my SB well for those matches (Nature's Clain/Chain of Vapor are useless while they have Counterbalance on the table). I accept sugestions about SB and deck improvements to deal with this specific opponent.

I won one round agains this deck and I can say I was very very luck...

[02Drop]

I'm mainly a Goblins player, but looking for a second deck just for variety. After turning the little green men sideways for three years, I'm itching for a change. Dredge is one of the decks I'm considering currently. I've read the excellent primer in the first page here and I think I already have a better understanding of the deck than I did when I was merely goldfishing the deck earlier. I'm fairly confident in my ability to at least competently goldfish the deck, but of course games 2 and 3 are where the challenge can lie. Is there a strong primer or article that offers some very in-depth sideboard advice? What should be in one's sideboard and what cards to bring in/out along with some reasoning? It's not like Goblins, where it can be clearcut as boarding out AEther Vial against non-blue decks most of the time. Almost every card feels like a key piece in Dredge and as such, I'm unsure how to board wisely.

Thanks in advance

[Megadeus]

round 6: vs. RIP Miracle (1 - 2) ... RIP forced me to play really slow (ataking with narcomoebas and imps just)... i could win one of the games, but even pos-SB this is really an unfair match-up.

I find this a hilarious quote. When the dredge player says other things are un fair! Lol.

[Anusien]

While maindeck Dread Returns are pretty terrible, Deathrite Shaman isn't really a reason to fear them. If you're ever getting to the point where you're ready to flashback Dread Return and they are leaving Deathrite Shaman untapped rather than trying to remove relevant cards, you can just kill them.

[Beatusnox]

While maindeck Dread Returns are pretty terrible, Deathrite Shaman isn't really a reason to fear them. If you're ever getting to the point where you're ready to flashback Dread Return and they are leaving Deathrite Shaman untapped rather than trying to remove relevant cards, you can just kill them.

I disagree wholeheartedly about dread return being terrible in the maindeck. It has allowed me to win game ones I had no right winning simply because of what it enables. With the rise in maindeck hate they aren't as great, in many of the situations I run into locally I still greatly prefer having the out rather than just scoop the game.

[Anusien]

Sorry, that should say maindeck Dread Return targets. Having a Dread Return or two is sweet.

[Forgotten]

So it has been a while since I have been on here and I have switched from LED dredge to manaless dredge due to lack of LEDs anymore lol. I was wondering if anyone could help me tailor my sideboard. Right now I have the main sideboard that is on the primer, but not sure if these are the cards I need in my current metagame. The guys in the local store are running BUG, Maverick, Canadian Thresh, and Affinity with a Pox or Red Burn or two mixed in every other week. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Mindlash]

So it has been a while since I have been on here and I have switched from LED dredge to manaless dredge due to lack of LEDs anymore lol. I was wondering if anyone could help me tailor my sideboard. Right now I have the main sideboard that is on the primer, but not sure if these are the cards I need in my current metagame. The guys in the local store are running BUG, Maverick, Canadian Thresh, and Affinity with a Pox or Red Burn or two mixed in every other week. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

If you need a sideboard for Manaless Dredge, I would recommend the Manaless Ichorid Primer in the Established Section of this Board. This Thread mainly deals with LED Dredge.

It might also help to get look at your decklist and to hear something about your meta.

Manaless Dredge might want some SB cards against Stormcombo and Tinfins right now, because those are faster then the manaless version of Dredge. Some good choices might be Chancellor of Annex, Fairie Macabre and Mindbreak Trap. The only hate you need to board for are mostly Leyline, Cage and RiP which can be solved through Reverent Silence or Nature's Claim.

LED Dregde on the other hand is faster and can battle most combos without help from the Board. You might use Leyline of the Void here to get an edge in the mirror and battle Reanimator or the rising TinFins. Again this depends on your meta. Other good choices for LED Dredge are Nature's Claim to battle most permanent hate und Ashen Ghoul to battle Extractions. This is most of the time supported by additional lands.

Hope this helps.

Greetings Chris

Edit: Oh I should learn to read...you posted your meta :) I will re-read your post and suggest sb cards soon. I am at work right now. So it might take some minutes :-)

Edit2: You might want to use the following cards against these decks:

BUG:

Depends on their SB. In my area they mostly rely on Maindeck Shamans. LED Dredge should be easily able to race them. Manaless should be fine with maindeck removal depending on your list. Chancellor might help to slow down the shaman too.

Common Hate: Deathrite Shaman

Maverick:

LED Drede I board nothing here either. All of Mavericks hate is just to slow to beat Dredge. Manaless might want to use Chancellor here too to delay them. If you have Dryad Arbor you could use it to pay for Thalia. Otherwise you have to overwhelm them with Zombies and reccuring threats.

Common Hate: Ooze, Bojuka Bog, (Thalia - stops us from using DR)

Canadian Thresh: I board in Ashen Ghouls with LED Dredge against SE or Grudge against Crypt and nothing with Manaless Dredge. Manaless Dredge can withstand most of their hate on their own.

Common Hate: Tormod's Crypt and Surgical Extraction

Affinity: Never seen this in a long while. I guess they would use Cage?! So you would need Nature's Claim. Bridges still work through Cage. I guess with Manaless I will just die to them because I only have Reverent Silence, but I guess it's ok. Affinity is not a deck here.

Common Hate: Cage

Pox: I never played against Pox. I would expect Leylines or Surgical here so your need Reverent Silence with Manaless and Ghouls or Claims with LED Dredge.

Common Hate: no idea

Red Burn: I would not board here anything either with both versions. Burn will play Fairies or things like Crypt I think. Depending on you Manaless Decklist you might want to switch your creature removal with the chancellor.

Common Hate: Fairy, Crypt

When I am 1:0 and have no idea what to expect I board nothing in G2 and try to race them. G3 you can board accordingly to their hate.
I use the Quadlaserlist from the OT -1 Tarnished Citadel +1 Undiscovered Paradise and the Manaless Dredge Version from Hollywoods latest article about manaless on Jupiter Games. I am thinking about using Chancellor maindeck again though.

Greetings Chris

[Final Fortune]

This is just because you haven't had the experience yet. There are still some decisions about combat that dredge players regularly mess up. Being intimately familiar with your deck is probably the biggest strength you can have in a legacy tournament. I played this deck for 3 years straight, as an example, and it paid off. You'll learn what to name with Therapy, when to block with whom, how to play around hate, etc.



I understand Firestorm kills DRS, but siding those in means you side out LED. You cannot have LED and Firestorm in the same 60, to answer your question about running them in the main. My reservation about playing Firestorm at all is that being proactive with LED will win you more games than Firestorm will prevent you from losing. DRS is handled by an LED start, or any hand with Study/Looting/Pimp and two dredgers. Hell, turn one Breakthrough for x=0 can beat DRS.

The issue I have with that argument is Firestorm isn't a linear answer to Death right shaman, it's a one mana Wrath of God and an outlet for your hand that savages fair decks as well.

[Kelm]

I've been running this pretty standard Bloodghast list locally lately with great succes. Before you go OMFGBBQ NO BREAKTHROUGH??!!!?! please take a moment to read my post.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Bloodghast

4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise

SB
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Leyline of the Void

Pre-board im able to grind out most of my opponents with recurring Bloodghasts and Ichorids (and a couple zombies, i don't need a gigantic zombie army with Bloodghasts, and i'm also not dependant on having BFB in the GY). It's simply too much pressure in most matchups, and you aren't as dependant on resolving that turn 1 spell. I haven't had the same trouble with Deathrite Shaman removing that one key spell with this list. It's just too much for him to remove

The sideboard allows you to go all-in on the Speed-kills plan in the Reanimator/TES matchup. You board out some Ichorids and Bloodghasts and are good to go

Against slow control decks LED's go out for a variation of artifact/enchantment removal.

Elesh Norn is GG in the random Goblin/Elves matchup. (and mirror if you feel for it)

Leylines are going in and out of my SB currently. They can easily be replaced with stuff like Firestorm and whatever you feel like.

Any thoughts on it?

I know it's not as fast and usualliy wins a couple turns later than DR/Breakthrough lists, but i find it to be way more consistent and i win many more games were my dredges are so-so (you know, go all in and empty your library, but can't hit the last combo piece)

[Anusien]

If you have no Breakthrough and no Dread Return, there is no excuse to not have all 12 Dredgers. That's just embarrassing.

[indefinite.soul]

Pox: I never played against Pox. I would expect Leylines or Surgical here so your need Reverent Silence with Manaless and Ghouls or Claims with LED Dredge.

Common Hate: no idea

Planar Void. Boy, that hurts...

If you have no Breakthrough and no Dread Return, there is no excuse to not have all 12 Dredgers. That's just embarrassing.

And the 4th Ichorid, I'd say...

But, if you are getting nice results... Who am I, after all? xD