The testing of banned cards?

[TsumiBand]

Comparing Vintage and Legacy, again? Jesus, what's a goblin recruiter against Tinker, Y.Will and shit.

The lack of tournament data concerning SheZa could also be a result of being a 760€ playset then it was legal (now ~60€ despite being banned) and only playable in a Single deck. Pretty much like Recruiter just less playable

Don't miss the forest for the trees, brah. I was talking about the mentality behind banning cards that try to "go to time", not the formats themselves.*

Missing data is still missing data, and card availability is generally frowned on as a means for determining the viability and power of a deck. The cost of a playset of any game-winning card has never really stopped dedicated folks from just throwing their wallet at things that they want, if they really want it that damn bad.

If anyone can show me a non-pithy number of tournament reports where someone was rocking a deck made to abuse Shahrazhad and actually played through the natural hate in the format as a result of people preparing for Burning Wish or any real Storm-based combo deck, then there will be something to talk about.

Really the point here is that, we're talking about testing banned cards right? So if you're going to test them, you should test them on the actual merits of their banned status BEFORE you start looking at corner-case application. There's another thing I'd love to see proof of; who has actually ever seen a game drawn out because someone was taking too fucking long to stack their deck with Goblin Recruiter? Where is this mythical deck that can force people to go to time because a 2 mana Goblin resolved?

Moreover, if a judge hasn't already commented on this, I would love to hear an official answer regarding what would actually happen to a player that is arguably slow-playing a Goblin Recruiter trigger. My guess is that the answer is, "the same thing that happens to every other player that Slow Plays", but apparently one needs to be sure these days.

*(While it doesn't matter a damn, FCG had *plenty* of game against Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, and shit. There's something to be said for an already very fast and reliable creature deck that can "oops" a combo win by drawing a 3-mana enchantment. I'll assume you're familiar with the combo and that I don't actually have to draw a road map of how Food Chain and Goblin Recruiter make you win the turn either one resolves. Assuming the deck was properly adorned with the right jewelry, it was a fine deck for its time).

[phazonmutant]

In terms of power level, there is no comparison. We're validating the statement: "Necropotence is too powerful in Legacy to be unbanned."

Both your list and mine can demonstrate that fact, even if mine does not include LED/Tutor as additional decision trees. Necro is powerful enough in either list to seriously consider leaving on the Ban list.

As for the actual discussion regarding Necro vs Bargain - yes the 3 mana cost makes a huge difference. A turn 1 or 2 necro is much more realistic off land ritual, or land land lotus, or land land cabal ritual, that it adds an incredible amount of consistency. The only issue of course, is finding Necro. Unfortunately, and unlike the Classic format version of NecroSpike, Demonic Consultation is banned in this quasi-Legacy format we're working in. This reduces consistency.

Good point, I keep on getting caught up in comparing the banned cards. Not really the point, is it? I forgot to mention, your list was hella fun to goldfish. Thanks for posting it!

Are you wondering why a 6cc spell is stronger than a 3cc? The Point, which should be clear, is that Necro is insanly cheap to play. Land, Ritual, Discard spell, LED, Infernal -> Necro is much easier than generating 8 mana to Tutor bargain. I neither have any clue why you would run 3 Tendrils or PIF maindeck over a set of Burning Wishes.

I think I'm just addicted to raw power I was trying to emulate the Grinding Station decks with the Past in Flames and no Burning Wish - gives a good route to victory that doesn't involve Necro. Haven't tested Burning Wish so you could definitely be correct.

[Xoth]

I see demonic consultation receiving an almost unanimous -too broken- view.

Given I'm a noober, but I can't figure out why. Yes it's cheap, and it has what I perceive to be a nasty drawback.

What boogeyman does it enable that your afraid of? I don't see improving SI's already what, 70% reported win% as that big of a deal. All ready might as well be a 100% against non blue as far as I am concerned.

Shaving a mana off infernals hellbent and giving a chance to brick? I don't imagine tes/ant picking it up, and if they do...saving one mana off infernal? Not my definition of broken.

That's kind of the deal. It's stupid good for silver bullets, but then you sometimes kill yourself. So you use it on multiples, might as well cantrip, or otherwise manipulate your deck and never kill yourself.

Anyways, I don't get it. What would a "legacy legal zomg meta warping" demonic consultation deck look like? I can't see it.

Teach a noob!

[Viridia]

Demonic Consultation is pretty much a 1 mana instant speed tutor something from your deck, with almost no drawback, especially when tutoring for 3 or 4-offs. It would give decks too much consistency/resilience to combo off easily :)

[Oiolosse]

You get any card in your deck for B, instantly. I had an Illusions+Donate deck years back before i knew about ban lists and such. 4 demonic consultation and 4 demonic tutor. It was so awesome. Throw it in a deck and test.

[Koby]

Demonic Consultation is pretty much a 1 mana instant speed tutor something from your deck, with almost no drawback, especially when tutoring for 3 or 4-offs. It would give decks too much consistency/resilience to combo off easily :)

An example can demonstrate this:
Swamp, Dark Ritual, LED, cast Demonic Consultation for Ad Nauseam, proceed to go off.
In Belcher too, this can be used to (typically) find LED or Charbelcher. Generating mana is easier once we add the Black rituals to abuse DC.

[whienot]

Consultation is stupid good with any of Legacy's two-card combos. Show and Tell with Demonic Consultation, ugh. Hive Mind, ugh. Belcher now doesn't need to run Empty the Warrens. The only interesting thing it does is make Laboratory Maniac a legitimate win condition.


It really isn't something you want to see.

[Xoth]

An example can demonstrate this:
Swamp, Dark Ritual, LED, cast Demonic Consultation for Ad Nauseam, proceed to go off.
In Belcher too, this can be used to (typically) find LED or Charbelcher. Generating mana is easier once we add the Black rituals to abuse DC.

That is an excellent t1 without protection.

So is it just storm it's good in? What othe black combo decks are there anymore?

I doubt show and tell would splash black to play it.

I didn't think storm could get much better than it is now.

[Koby]

I didn't think storm could get much better than it is now.

Storm can always get better. Alpha Moxen/Lotus/Mana Vault/Sol Ring/Mana Crypt are still not legal :)

[whienot]

I doubt show and tell would splash black to play it.

They would. You would gain access to hand disruption without losing the consistency of Sneak and Show and maintaining a stable mana base.

[Lemnear]

Storm can always get better. Alpha Moxen/Lotus/Mana Vault/Sol Ring/Mana Crypt are still not legal :)

All crap ... Legacy Storm needs Yawgmoth's Will Xp

Consultation is an Instant Demonic Tutor for half the cost. Every deck with black mana would have to run 4 of it regardless of the archetype. Casting Consultation for Ad Nauseam isn't the point: finding Lion's Eye Diamond for +2 mana AND turning Hellbent on is. As well as tutoring for Silence so you don't have to run 7+ Protection spells which brick in matchups which need speed. Consultation is manaboost, Protection and kill in a 1cc wrap

Consultation would turn TES into the ... wait for it ... strongest Deck in the History of the game. It would outclass it's vintage grampa BurningDesire.dec aka original Long.dec by far

[Xoth]

Your right koby, it can. We're a long way from long.dec. I just thought the critical pieces were things like ywill and minds desire and stuff.


I guess I can accept that's its just got to much raw power.

I just...take that unprotected t1 you mentioned a few posts ago. Swamp led drit consultation, loses to FOW . Loses to ad naus in the top 15, which will happen more than a quarter of a time by a margin.

To beat the FOW, not the rng you need to add a lotus petal and a duress/silence effect.

6 cards for a nuts t1? That loses 1/4 of the time just because? that can still lose to a fail ad naus? Seems...reasonable.


I admit I was hoping for a list, but I'll just have to accept that power is power.

[Xoth]

Consultation would turn TES into the ... wait for it ... strongest Deck in the History of the game. It would outclass BurningDesire.dec aka original Long.dec by far

Sorry for the double post. By the time I type something out on my phone, so much has happened!


What would they take out to fit it in? Is it worth their wishboard? You said something about using it to get hellbent, so I guess not infernal tutor. Do they want 12 tutors?

[Lemnear]

Sorry for the double post. By the time I type something out on my phone, so much has happened!


What would they take out to fit it in? Is it worth their wishboard? You said something about using it to get hellbent, so I guess not infernal tutor. Do they want 12 tutors?

Immediately cut 3 Duress, EtW, and a Rite of Flame and add 2nd Ad Nauseam and 4 consultation. As Said, consultation isn't just a Tutor, it's a dark Ritual if you want it to be (via LED)

[Xoth]

Immediately cut 3 Duress, EtW, and a Rite of Flame and add 2nd Ad Nauseam and 4 consultation. As Said, consultation isn't just a Tutor, it's a dark Ritual if you want it to be (via LED)

So...3 silence for protection and jacking up the speed. Is that fundamentally different from SI or belcher?

Doesn't seem like TES anymore, and seems like something that already exists

[Lemnear]

So...3 silence for protection and jacking up the speed. Is that fundamentally different from SI or belcher?

Doesn't seem like TES anymore, and seems like something that already exists

There are 4 silences remaining. Spanish Inquisition and Belcher are Glas cannons without protection, this suggested configuration has virtual 8 silences + ponder + Brainstorm to find them in Addition to Gitaxian Probe. It has nothing in Common with Belcher or SI. It's more of an improved Version of the Old mystical Tutor ANT's

[Amon Amarth]

Demonic Consultation is the best tutor ever printed. Better than Demonic. It would make Storm stupid.

[Xoth]

Ok, I realize its been a couple days but since no one else is talking and were still on the front page, ima continue my education.

I will accept that demonic consultation is a damn good tutor, and it's downsides are hardly that. On the line between broken and not, it falls in the must be kept locked away for the good of everyone.

What confuses me is that every good word said about consultation can also be said about spoils of the vault. The difference being that instead of occasionally bricking on ad naus in the top 15, you occasionally brick because ad naus is in the last 15. And it's legal and nobody plays it.

That's actually not that confusing. The one life per card thing...with consultation, almost losing is a complete win. Almost losing with spoils is losing, because now you have almost no life to speak of. Apparently that just took me writing it out to grasp.


Never mind, I'm moving along. I'm looking forward to lurking through the testing.

[Gheizen64]

Ok, I realize its been a couple days but since no one else is talking and were still on the front page, ima continue my education.

I will accept that demonic consultation is a damn good tutor, and it's downsides are hardly that. On the line between broken and not, it falls in the must be kept locked away for the good of everyone.

What confuses me is that every good word said about consultation can also be said about spoils of the vault. The difference being that instead of occasionally bricking on ad naus in the top 15, you occasionally brick because ad naus is in the last 15. And it's legal and nobody plays it.

That's actually not that confusing. The one life per card thing...with consultation, almost losing is a complete win. Almost losing with spoils is losing, because now you have almost no life to speak of. Apparently that just took me writing it out to grasp.


Never mind, I'm moving along. I'm looking forward to lurking through the testing.

? No? Spoils lose you the game in like 10% of the cases. That's not an acceptable odd. Furtherwise, Spoils into AdN is completely useless since you'll have no life to use to draw cards. Spoils is a fucking terrible card, playing it once or twice should make clear how bad it is. On average it lose you about 12 life (50 card deck, 4 copies still in deck), that's nowhere acceptable.

[Lemnear]

? No? Spoils lose you the game in like 10% of the cases. That's not an acceptable odd. Furtherwise, Spoils into AdN is completely useless since you'll have no life to use to draw cards. Spoils is a fucking terrible card, playing it once or twice should make clear how bad it is. On average it lose you about 12 life (50 card deck, 4 copies still in deck), that's nowhere acceptable.

Spoils into an Engine card could be interesting if cards like Mind's Desire would be unbanned, but playing it into a 4-off finisher is quite playable (See ol' Belcher). It however sets up the restrictions of being fast to avoid damage from your opponent and disable you to run a strategy which uses life as a resource like TES/ANT. Atm there is no card existing in the Legacy cardpool which would justify to trade in ~10 Life to Tutor for it or tun the risk to throw away the Game (which happend to me quite some Times in old BG Belcher)