Miracle Control

[Shawn]

lord: The mana has been fine so far. I play 18 u sources, which is comparable to most lists. Sure, there might be times where fewer basics hurts, but you gain a lot of power by adding Groves which has to be considered. Also, I play a land more than mosts lists and often board into 25 against decks with mana-disruption.

I should have clarified my problems I've been having with Jund, it's the traditional BBE version. I feel the Nic Fit version is a fine matchup. I played against Tim who made t8.Game one I mulled to five and game three I played poorly: I pitched a Brainstorm to Force when I should have flipped Top to pitch CB, I should have fatesealed with Jace, and I may have gotten greedy on a Brainstorm and shuffled a Terminus away-I have to watch that part again to see if that was right.My Thoughtseize on Deed instead of Pulse is also debatable. If I Seize the Pulse he can't deal with Jace and it's harder for him to deal with Baneslayer, but taking the Deed allows me to randomly win with ETA as I had Top and Pulse can't nab Geist.

[Koplinchen]

There are more evidences from SCG Kansas City, Punishing Fire combo is now being used in Nick-Fit and Lands.

DragoFireheart's stuck at 2012, when most people has moved onto 2013. Unless you have the credential to justify like Joe or that Japanese guy, you have no case.

It is not only this post - can you think twice before you post something and sound less condescending? Thanks

[alphastryk]

Just wanted to update you guys, Celestial Purge has been great at helping out the Jund matchup, as it kills every permanent they play except Tarmogoyf and Sylvan Library.

[Arsenal]

And it's untouched by REB/Pyroblast, which is a very common card that Jund players will board in and feel "safe" with when they run out their bomb threat.

[Cipher]

I wish they still wrote the metagame column on starcity as frequently as they did a year ago. It is easy, and dangerous, to place a lot of significance on small sample sizes. The RIP Miracle deck made top 8 in Denver. Obviously that is important. To get in, he beat me in a one game match that was pretty close, which makes the result a little less convincing in my mind.

However, looking at a whole string of tournaments makes a stronger case (against me).

I did a little research and (while this isn't shocking) it is interesting.

After RIP was printed and before Andrew beats me in the last round to make top 8 of Denver:
SCG Top 8's for counterbalance/miracles: 5
SCG Top 8's for RIP/Helm versions: 0

After Denver up until the present:
SCG Top 8's for counterbalance/miracles: 1 (me)
SCG Top 8's for RIP/Helm versions: 6

That is a pretty massive change. It is possible that the RIP version is better. It is also possible that I am the only person still playing without maindeck RIP, which doesn't tell us much other than that I am stubborn, but also explains the lack of results.

The RIP versions should be better against anything where RIP is relevant, and my version should be better against everything else. That may not be true, but it seems reasonable in theory. An important question is how much better is RIP versus something like RUG Delver? And how much of the metagame is RIP good against? I don't have an answer to those, but I believe that the difference is not enough to justify playing RIP main for myself.

But what is right for one person does not make it right for others. Plus I could be wrong.

That's hilarious and extremely telling. I never know whether to get disappointed or happy when I realize how "unsolved" this game is after 20 years.

[Kaslan]

Why try to figure out what build is the best when you can have a hybrid of : Thopter, Stoneblade, Miracle and RIP in the sideboard ?
Only 1 card does not have synergy when transforming from Thopter to RIP it's Academy Ruins ( witch is not a big deal )

I did some testing with this build VS EsperBlade, Reanimator, ANT, the mirror( normal miracle control ) and Burn
and I came to the conclusion that I'm a bit weaker to combo game one without counterspell and spell pierce main deck, but I have a better match up Vs the rest of the field.

This deck is a lot more proactive then the other control deck, it has more '' must answer threats '' and play much more aggressively. In the control mirror this deck can play through the opposing counters because it has so many game ending plays.



Creatures [2]
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants [14]

3 Enlightened Tutor ( MVP of the deck )
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [4]
1 personal tutor ( I hate starting a game with a miracle in my hand, this tutor acts as my 2ed Entreat and my 3ed Terminus )
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Terminus

Enchantments[5]
4 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts [9]
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands [23]
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Plains
4 Island
1 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

I side board is fare from being optimal. I could use some help fixing it.

Sideboard
1 Helm of Obedience ( bring the combo kill in when RIP is needed )
3 Rest in Peace ( good against graveyard based decks, snap, goyf,...)
2 Vendilion Clique ( good against control and combo )
1 Swords to Plowshares ( good against agrro )
1 Humility ( aggro and show and tell )
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge ( aggro and show and tell )
1 Ethersworn Canonist ( combo )
2 Spell Pierce ( good against control, combo and can replace force of will when I don't need to 2 for 1 my self )
1 Blood Moon ( good against gready mana bases, lands, 12 post and loam decks in general )
1 Terminus ( good against aggro )

Any helpful feedback would be appreciated

[cschacal]

3 Enlightened tutors + 1 Personal tutor= too much card disadvantage don't you think?

[Kaslan]

3 Enlightened tutors + 1 Personal tutor= too much card disadvantage don't you think?

Card disadvantage is not a bad thing when you tutor for :
-a combo peace that will let you grind (Thopter) or win the game on the spot (RIP-Helm)
-a kill condition like Entreat
-a board wipe what's going to be a 2 for 2 at worst and will make the game progress in to the mid game ( you are better suited to win the mid game then other decks )

[Stavanger]

Card disadvantage is not a bad thing when you tutor for :
-a combo peace that will let you grind (Thopter) or win the game on the spot (RIP-Helm)
-a kill condition like Entreat
-a board wipe what's going to be a 2 for 2 at worst and will make the game progress in to the mid game ( you are better suited to win the mid game then other decks )

When you make a post, and actually point out that plow and terminus is good against aggro (and all the other obvious stuff in the SB) it tells something about your skill level. You ask for feedback, but when you get it, you refute it? I don't get it.

[Kaslan]

When you make a post, and actually point out that plow and terminus is good against aggro (and all the other obvious stuff in the SB) it tells something about your skill level. You ask for feedback, but when you get it, you refute it? I don't get it.

Great first post on The Source, you're making an amazing first impression. Any other feedback I could get from you other then my obvious skill level?

[Stavanger]

Great first post on The Source, you're making an amazing first impression. Any other feedback I could get from you other then my obvious skill level?

Just seems like you are more interested in confirmation of your version rather than constructive critisism, being ignorant when people give you feedback and argument against instead of learning will get you nowhere, and people will stop using their time trying to help you with your build. Stating the obvious is not necessary, people finishing t8 in SCG and GP know what STP and Terminus is good against. Sorry for my bad english, as my nick tells, english is not my first language.

[Kaslan]

Just seems like you are more interested in confirmation of your version rather than constructive critisism, being ignorant when people give you feedback and argument against instead of learning will get you nowhere, and people will stop using their time trying to help you with your build. Stating the obvious is not necessary, people finishing t8 in SCG and GP know what STP and Terminus is good against. Sorry for my bad english, as my nick tells, english is not my first language.

Anything else you would like to add ?

[oarsman]

Looking at the list, my comment relates to the doubling up of kill conditions. I know that your goal was to create a hybrid. Still, the 75 cards has space devoted to both RIP/Helm and Thopter/Sword. I would ask myself two questions.

Do I ever board in RIP/Helm and leave in Thopter/Sword?
If not, are there matchups where one is so much better than the other that I can justify using the sideboard space for the second set?

If the answer to either one is yes, then fine. But put some thought into it.

[Polish Tamales]

I think my list is nearly complete. I might add R for Blood Moon + Pyroblast, + Engineered Explosives, but I'm not quite ready yet unless someone can convince me to drop almost $200 USD for the upgrades.

Here's what I have so far for a pure U/W list. Let me know how you feel about this guys.

Main Deck:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

1 Back to Basics
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Detention Sphere
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Rest in Peace
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus

1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Plains
4 Tundra

Sideboard:
1 Aura of Silence
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Flusterstorm
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
1 Powder Keg
1 Sphere of Law
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Surgical Extraction

Again, adding Red would mean dropping Back to Basics for Blood Moon and switching Powder Keg for Engineered Explosives. Let me know how you guys feel about this.

[Pherion]

Heya Tamales,

Your list looks like a lot of fun, but there are a few things I'd change:

Powder Keg is very slow, I think I'd run with Engineered Explosives even if you don't splash a 3rd color. Lets compare how they each act.
Destroying 0 CMC: Powder Keg costs 2 to cast, and you tap it to sack it. EE costs 0, you then pay 2 to sac it. So they do the same thing here.
Destroying 1 CMC: Powder Keg costs 2 to cast, you wait a turn, then use it. EE costs 1 to use, and you can immediatly pay 2 to sac it. Here EE is faster, but Keg costs less.

The pattern continues with EE increasing in mana cost, and Keg increasing in turns. With the amount of mana we run (around 23 ususally) we will have plenty of land drops to always make EE a better option. Also - Keg can't kill enchantments, and I do love dropping an EE for WWU and watching the opposing Counterballance player get all confused.

Next up, are you playing Aura of Silence as a Disenchant, or are you afraid of MUD and Affinity? If it's the latter, then you need a better card: Energy Flux or Kataki, War's Wage for affinity, and counter magic for MUD. I'd suggest swapping it for a straight up Disenchant.

And last, Sphere of Law in you board makes me wonder why you're not running Energy Field in the main deck. It's one of the reasons that RIP is so good, Helm being the second one. I'd suggest finding room in the main for two fields, and see how that effects your burn match-up.

Cheers,
Frank

[twndomn]

Any lists that run 4 Counterbalances are clear indicators of little or no understanding of how Miracle control works. Simply google Miracle control, out of all the top 8 Miracle control deck lists, how many of them are running 4 CB?

To make the list more futile, adding Stoneblade package is just not the direction. We had this debate before, just look for reasoning in previous couple pages.

Seriously, again, just google Miracle control, out of all the top 8, which one runs Powder Keg? Look, budget is not an excuse, unless you post your list in casual section. Most tournament/competitive Legacy Miracle control decks run 3 colors. This is not even related to card choices, this is just your affordability.


No, Energy Field is clunky. It's a magnet for REB/Pyroblast. Just look at SCG Legacy Open's lists where Miracle Helms won 1st place, none of them MD Energy Field, maybe not even SB.

[oarsman]

Any lists that run 4 Counterbalances are clear indicators of little or no understanding of how Miracle control works.

Dang, just when I thought I was starting to get the hang of this, I find out that I have no idea what I am doing.

[obituary 95]

Any lists that run 4 Counterbalances are clear indicators of little or no understanding of how Miracle control works. Simply google Miracle control, out of all the top 8 Miracle control deck lists, how many of them are running 4 CB?

To make the list more futile, adding Stoneblade package is just not the direction. We had this debate before, just look for reasoning in previous couple pages.

Seriously, again, just google Miracle control, out of all the top 8, which one runs Powder Keg? Look, budget is not an excuse, unless you post your list in casual section. Most tournament/competitive Legacy Miracle control decks run 3 colors. This is not even related to card choices, this is just your affordability.


No, Energy Field is clunky. It's a magnet for REB/Pyroblast. Just look at SCG Legacy Open's lists where Miracle Helms won 1st place, none of them MD Energy Field, maybe not even SB.

if we have so little understanding of how miracle control works then maybe you could enlighten us a little bit. why exactly is it wrong to play 4 counterbalence in the deck.

[Jayman]

I have been trying some whacky stuff that I will not share here right now but I do have a list I would like you guys to critique.


2. Snapecaster Mage
3. Vendilion Clique
1. Venser, Shaper Savant
4. Brainstorm
4. Force of Will
3. Counterbalance
4. Sensei's Diving Top
3. Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3. Terminus
3. Swords to Plowshares
3. Spell Pierce
3. Disrupt
1. Counterspell
2. Entreat the Angels
3. Tundra
4. Flooded Strand
3. Scalding Tarn
2. Arid Mesa
2. Plains
1. Karakas
4. Island
2. Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
3. Red Elemental Nlast
1. Blood Moon
2. Enlightened Tutor
3. Rest in Peace
1. Energy Field
1. Helm of Obedience
1. Ethersworn Cannonidt
2. Elspeth, Knight Errent
1. Supreme Cerdict

It is pretty much a draw go version of Miracles with the only 3 cards that cannot be played during your opponents turn being Jace, counterbalance, and Top. I chose a classic flash creature based version to better deal with walkers and to pressure combo decks. I am using Distupt as tech and it has been surprisingly good even when played around. The discards decks have to wreck your hand early and often and they usually tap out to play their discard spells why not timewalk them and draw a card.

[Kaslan]

Any lists that run 4 Counterbalances are clear indicators of little or no understanding of how Miracle control works. Simply google Miracle control, out of all the top 8 Miracle control deck lists, how many of them are running 4 CB?

To make the list more futile, adding Stoneblade package is just not the direction. We had this debate before, just look for reasoning in previous couple pages.

Seriously, again, just google Miracle control, out of all the top 8, which one runs Powder Keg? Look, budget is not an excuse, unless you post your list in casual section. Most tournament/competitive Legacy Miracle control decks run 3 colors. This is not even related to card choices, this is just your affordability.


No, Energy Field is clunky. It's a magnet for REB/Pyroblast. Just look at SCG Legacy Open's lists where Miracle Helms won 1st place, none of them MD Energy Field, maybe not even SB.

You are right on the fact that most miracle lists play only 3 counter balance main deck and it may just be the correct number to play. If I wanted to google '' miracle control '' and just copy a list that top 8ed an event, I would not post my ideas and try for get feedback from players on .

As for your comment on stoneblade ( kill condition, stabilization tool vs aggro and tutor for a piece of my kill condition ) and the '' reasoning '' that you had in the previous pages ... well let's just say your arguments did not convince me.

Honestly, you have some good points but unfortunately you don't convey them very well. Be less aggressive and try to be less of a D bad when you comment on someone else's post.