[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[Arsenal]

Right, but card availability aside, is there a competitive reason to run Deadguy over Junk if Deadguy is going to start splashing for green (like the list feline posted)? As a Junk player, I say "no", but I'm interested in hearing if Deadguy players have a different take.

[cartothemax]

Right, but card availability aside, is there a competitive reason to run Deadguy over Junk if Deadguy is going to start splashing for green (like the list feline posted)? As a Junk player, I say "no", but I'm interested in hearing if Deadguy players have a different take.

I will weigh in with my two cents on this.

In August I began playing a stock list of Deadguy Ale with Vindicate, Tidehollow Sculler, and a couple Chrome Mox. When Return to Ravinca was released I made the changes that are reflected in the majority of lists here now. Vindicates turned into Abrupt Decay, Tidehollow got diminished to make room for Deathrite (DRS also replaced Mox sort of.) Bayous were brought in. I coined it as "Junk Blade" and the list looked like this.

x4 Dark Confidant
x4 Stoneforge Mystic
x4 Deathrite Shaman
x2 Tidehollow Sculler

x2 Sensi's Divining Top
x2 Thoughtseize
x2 Inquisition of Kozilek
x2 Cabal Therapy
x4 Swords to Plowshares
x4 Abrupt Decay
x3 Liliana of the Veil
x3 Lingering Souls
x2 Jitte
x1 Batterskull

x4 Verdant Catacombs
x4 Marsh Flats
x2 Bayou
x4 Scrubland
x4 Wasteland
x2 Swamp
x1 Plains

Now I've been playing this list for a couple months is all, but I did feel it was lacking. I found myself looking for solutions to the problems this deck has. I would ask questions like... what would be a pre-board graveyard answer or had how could I combat opposing beefy creatures. At first I considered more discard, but his ended up not being enough. The window for when discard is REALLY potent is pretty small it needs to get in early and fast. Having a permanent answer is just more practical. Clearly for this list above simply dropping a few cards and you can add Tarmogoyf easily and, in my opinion, it would make the deck stronger in a lot of match-ups and cement others.

In the end though the lines are blurring between the two archetypes. It's just different flavors that give here and take there. Some roll with Hymn to focus on resource denial, others focus on ground beaters, and some the equip route. People have playing preferences and GWB has such great card selection to support many styles.

Having not played a list with Goyf my opinion matters little. My gut tells me it's better though. It lets the deck turn from Control to Aggro easily and that's something that only SFM-> Batterskull could previously accomplish or I guess Lingering Souls could do.

[Arsenal]

Although 1WW, I've always viewed Mirran Crusader as Deadguy Ale's "Goyf". As in, he swings in for 4 points by himself (gets even more bonkers once you factor in equipment) and he can serve as a Goyf-wall if you need to play defense. Obviously, he's not as good as Goyf is (3cc vs 2cc, dies to Lightning Bolt for free, etc), but if you're going to be sticking with straight BW colors, then why aren't more people running this guy?

[cartothemax]

I would say the short and sweet answer is he dies to Bolt. Hero of the Bladehold was the other finisher that has been tried out with some success.

With Crusader though he really shines when he picks up equipment (dudes a beast with a SoFaI)

EDIT: should add that double white can stress the manabase at times too.

[AryaStark]

BW Stoneblade is more resistant to wasteland and Price of Progress effects than Junk. I like being able to toss down a fair amount of land so I can do multiple things in one turn without worrying(or emptying hand before activate Lili). I also have a unnatural dislike for combo. In that case Sculler is better than Tarm (sometimes i run sinkholes/extra vindicates just to crush the hopes of spiral tide players :) ). And really I prefer targeted discard over too many deathrite. Deathrite is awesome, but really does zippo to TES, ANT, SI, sneak/show etc.

In order to be resistant to non-basic hate you have more swamps, which means no reliable mirran crusaders.

That is my basic answer to the two questions floating around here. Of course that is my opinion and I would never say that playing Junk is bad or worse than BW. There is a difference, though.

[Arsenal]

I get why people play the straight BW version, but my question was more for the Deadguy players that are splashing green (fairly heavily if the list feline posted is any indicator).

[Kich867]

I would say the short and sweet answer is he dies to Bolt. Hero of the Bladehold was the other finisher that has been tried out with some success.

With Crusader though he really shines when he picks up equipment (dudes a beast with a SoFaI)

EDIT: should add that double white can stress the manabase at times too.

Under what circumstance is it even possible for double white to stress the manabase in a two-color deck with duals of the only two colors that you run? I don't think I've ever heard of this, experienced this myself, or spoken to any individuals (including my roommate, who plays BW Deadguy Ale) who have had such issues.

Deadguy can fetch / play exclusively basics and be completely fine.

Mirran Crusader is also about 100 times better than Hero of Bladehold, who is extraordinarily slow. He's even a better lategame creature with a batterskull out or something, you plop bskull on him and are swinging with a 6/6 double strike, vigilant, lifelinking, pro black / green creature.

[razvan]

Mirran Crusader is also about 100 times better than Hero of Bladehold, who is extraordinarily slow. He's even a better lategame creature with a batterskull out or something, you plop bskull on him and are swinging with a 6/6 double strike, vigilant, lifelinking, pro black / green creature.

On an empty board, Mirran Crusaders comes down one turn earlier. So he will take 5 turns to kill someone. You need to find 4 more damage some place for him to take 4.

Hero of Bladehold takes 3, and it's much likelier he needs 2, since she does do 18 damage.

So empty board, Hero is faster, sometimes significantly so. She just comes out one turn later.

Now, the vulnerability. Neither gets hit by Abrupt Decay, a big plus for both. However, at least against Jund, Crusader dies to Bolt, dies to a single Punishing Fire, dies to Lavamancer... hell, it even dies to Fire/Ice and Forked Bolt from RUG.

Both creatures kill everything in RUG/Jund except goyf, which will kill Hero most often, but not Crusader.

The batterskull comment is a bit random. Yes, he's awesome with batterskull on, so would the Hero be.

I like both, but Crusader is not 100 times better, and I would maintain he is arguably less effective.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Mirran Crusader is also about 100 times better than Hero of Bladehold, who is extraordinarily slow. He's even a better lategame creature with a batterskull out or something, you plop bskull on him and are swinging with a 6/6 double strike, vigilant, lifelinking, pro black / green creature.

Mirran Crusader with a bskull attached is your argument for keeping him? Imagine Hero in the same situation. I'm 100% convinced you haven't tried it because you wouldn't be promoting Crusader if you had.

We really don't care about pro green with StP, Vindicate, and Lili in our starting 60. What Deadguy needs is a faster clock and Hero provides that on her own. Things get silly with Souls or Faeries already in play.

[BlackPurple]

Hello guys, I'm new on this site and this is my first comment.
( sorry for any mistakes , English isn't my first language.)

I'm playing Deadguy Ale for a while now, I love to play this deck, and recently I splash green to try the list with Deathrite and Abrupt D.
Deathrite is so multi-functional that it would be a shame to not take advantage of this creature. ( To win some life against Burn, to deal some crucial life, to make Snapcaster, tarmo, KoR weaker, to accelerate our game early on, or to remove some pieces against combo,..)
These changes make Deadguy Ale even more flexible.


The list:

1 Batterskull
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Dark confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Lingering Souls
3 Vindicate
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

2 Bitterblossom

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Plains

Sideboard

2 Perish
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in piece
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ensnaring Bridge ( in test )
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Serenity ( in test )
1 Engineered Plague



IMO, Crusader is not so good in this list,and I personaly think Hero is too slow, that why I prefer to play Elspeth ''random''.
I tried also Tidehollow Sculler, who I think is much less interesting without Vial.
I tried SoFi and I thought that it can be really good but too slow too. ( I always want Jitte or Batterskull )

[Kayradis]

IMO, Crusader is more a SB card. Seems like everybody is scared of bolt. He also dies to : StP, PtE, Punishing Fire and all the other option named above. The format was, is, and will be removal intensive. We are talking here about a format that let us play all the best cards ever printed.
Play around removals. We all did, and we all gonna do it again.

Let's simply say that if you can equip that bastard with SoFaI,BSkull or any other of the shiny swords, the clock get really fast for the opponent.

@BlackPurple
I do like your list. Really.

[Wilkin]

I've played Both Crusader and Hero and I like Hero a lot more, especially since I don't play Mother of Runes.

Hero is usually a turn 2 clock since Deadguy usually plays a ton of removal. 4 mana is a lot but she does ends games for me. Even if she gets to swing just once and dies, you still have 2 1/1 soldiers which is awesome. I've tried so many creatures as "finishers". Nyxathid. Phyrexian Obliterator. Mirran Crusader. I've found Hero of Bladehold to be the best of the bunch in black/white.

[Rizso]

There are quite a few cards i want to try out in the deck. Like Cursed Scroll, recurring nightmare, bladesplicer and restoration angel. And if dragons maze teysa is great the also shinzo land that gives legends fear.

[Tokugawa]

When I look at Junk and Deadguy, one of the main strengths Deadguy has over Junk is the ability to run a ton of basics; this makes Deadguy more consistent than Junk due to not having to care about your Jund opponent opening with 2x Wasteland. Everything else though, Junk can do as well as Deadguy (Junk can run a similar disruption suite, similar creature suite, etc), and sometimes do it better due to having access to green (Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse > Vindicate, sideboard becomes stronger with green cards like Gaddock Teeg, Choke, etc). Once people start "splashing" green, they cut down on their basic land count, which takes away one of the advantages of playing Deadguy over Junk.

So I ask this: assuming access to cards isn't the issue, why would you run a substantial amount of green mana (3x Bayou in that list feline posted) and not run Goyf? I can't think of any matchup where I'm disappointed to see 2x Goyf in my opener; it's a clock versus combo, a clock versus control, can help stabilize versus other Goyf decks, and it trumps other creature decks that don't run Goyf.

I agree. DGA is never in lack of 2-for-1 or many-for-1 spells(bob,souls,SFM,etc).

The main problem of our deck is how to deal high damage. Namely, the ability to stop goyf in combat without equipements.

Take goyf ourselves is one answer to opponent's goyfs(althrough maybe not a best). Personally, the only reason for me to not take 2 copies of goyf is the $130 price tag.

[Sughayyer]

I agree. DGA is never in lack of 2-for-1 or many-for-1 spells(bob,souls,SFM,etc).

The main problem of our deck is how to deal high damage. Namely, the ability to stop goyf in combat without equipements.

Take goyf ourselves is one answer to opponent's goyfs(althrough maybe not a best). Personally, the only reason for me to not take 2 copies of goyf is the $130 price tag.

Why does a deck that runs around 7 removal spells, does a lot of x for 1, and has creatures with evasion should be afraid of goyf? Plus we can use batterskull, however (I know I'm gonna be pounded now) sword of fire and ice is SO much better... killing critters, giving cards, etc... paired with the flying tokens it's simply fantastic.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Why does a deck that runs around 7 removal spells, does a lot of x for 1, and has creatures with evasion should be afraid of goyf?

This, but it's more like 10 removal spells.

Plus we can use batterskull, however (I know I'm gonna be pounded now) sword of fire and ice is SO much better... killing critters, giving cards, etc... paired with the flying tokens it's simply fantastic.

You're comparing the wrong equipment here. The correct comparison is Jitte vs. Sword of Fire and Ice.

[Zeph]

Hey everyone!

I've been following this thread for almost a year now, ever since I started playing Dead Guy and I finally decided to make an account so I can share my decklist (open to criticism/suggestions):

Lands:

3 Swamp
1 Plain
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
1 Fetid Heath
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Creatures:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidhollow Sculler
1 Hero of Bladehold

Planeswalkers:

4 Liliana of the Veil

Spells:

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate

Equipment:

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Bitterblossom
1 Humility
1 Engineered Plague
1 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Perish
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction

Let me know what you guys think! Usually I playtest with my buddy that plays UWr stoneblade, but he's made the switch over to Miracles. In the UWr stoneblade, it was a pretty good match up and now it's more of a 50/50.

I've also playtested against Junk decks (and mirror), burn, merfolk, bombardment, SI, 12 Post. I really wish I could playtest against more combo decks like ANT, TES or Blecher, so if anyone has insight on those match ups that'd be great.

[Arsenal]

Why does a deck that runs around 7 removal spells, does a lot of x for 1, and has creatures with evasion should be afraid of goyf? Plus we can use batterskull, however (I know I'm gonna be pounded now) sword of fire and ice is SO much better... killing critters, giving cards, etc... paired with the flying tokens it's simply fantastic.

But my point is that everything Deadguy Ale does (2-for-1s, creature threats, discard, equipment, Souls, etc), Junk can do as well PLUS Junk has Goyf. So again, assuming that card availability/price isn't a factor, why do Green splashing Deadguy Ale players run Abrupt Decay, DRS, Green sideboard cards, but not Goyf?

[Zeph]

But my point is that everything Deadguy Ale does (2-for-1s, creature threats, discard, equipment, Souls, etc), Junk can do as well PLUS Junk has Goyf. So again, assuming that card availability/price isn't a factor, why do Green splashing Deadguy Ale players run Abrupt Decay, DRS, Green sideboard cards, but not Goyf?

From my understanding of the two decks, I think one of the biggest reasons why deadguy decks don't run goyf because it allows them to have a more consistant mana base.

I think it's just if goyfs were added into the deck along with the abrupt decays, then that would probably warrant a main deck forest.

Before rock decks were mostly with the GSZ package of creatures but now there's more of a shift towards LS + SFM. I think that was one of the main differences between the two decks but now it's more blurred.

[Arsenal]

From my understanding of the two decks, I think one of the biggest reasons why deadguy decks don't run goyf because it allows them to have a more consistant mana base.

I think it's just if goyfs were added into the deck along with the abrupt decays, then that would probably warrant a main deck forest.

Before rock decks were mostly with the GSZ package of creatures but now there's more of a shift towards LS + SFM. I think that was one of the main differences between the two decks but now it's more blurred.

I already acknowledged the advantage of BW Deadguy Ale having a more consistent manabase than Junk, but if players are going to go BWg Deadguy Ale, then that consistency is weakened due to the inclusion of Bayou (the list feline posted a page back only played 3x basics).

If you're going to forgo the one advantage you had (manabase) over your closest cousin (Junk), why not go all in? This is what I'm trying to understand from the BWg Deadguy Ale players; why not just play Junk?