hello everyone I test this build for a week and I would like to know what you think
1 angel of glory's rise
1 azami , lady of scroll
1 laboratory maniac
1 bridge from below
1 wild cantor
1 dread return
3 street wraith
3 cabal therapy
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox
4 summoner's pact
4 dark ritual
4 narcomoeba
4 cabal ritual
4 gitaxian probe
4 elvish spirit guide
4 manamorphose
4 shimian spirit guide
4 balustrade spy
4 undercity informerr
sb
4 chancellor of the tangle (vs aggro deck for more mana acceleration)
4 leylin of sanctity (vs discard)
4 nature's claim (vs grave hate)
3 pact of negation
i love street wrait for draw or on chrome mox for black mana and 1 more cabal therapie is not bat my heavy controle meta
With more testing, I've noticed that sutured ghoul hinders the wish->creature kill plan. Opponents will keep their StP in to kill your ghoul or narc (doesn't trigger bridge) if they see you only milled 3 instead 4. I have come to the conclusion that lab maniac is necessary (with fiend hunter in sb). One of things to keep in mind is that azami and angel can be pitched to chrome mox if you don't need summoner's pact. You can cabal therapy away their removal later (aside from brainstorm). If going for a speed build, I'd just run 4 narcs, no bridge, 2 cabal therapy, spy in sb (more targets for therapy), and 2 tinder wall (stores chancellor mana) along with LED and sb list below.Originally Posted by Final Fortune
1 Swamp
1 Peat Bog
1 Hickory Woodlot - more testing reveals that getting this with double wish hands comes up often
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
1 Balustrade Spy - having extra creature to sac is more important than leaving a naked informer
1 Desecration Demon/Thrun - phyrexian obliterator off LED if you want to go for broke
1 Fiend Hunter - reduce dead pieces for leylines
3 Leyline of Sanctity - probably the strongest sb card option available
4 Pact of Negation - gives fighting chance against blue
I don't think the alternate creature kill plan is viable post-board regardless of whether or not you do or you don't play Sutured Ghoul, because your opponents should probably keep their removal in their deck post-board in order to force you to activate your Undercity Informant immediately.
Multiple Wild Cantor are probably better than any Tinder Walls
With 11 rogues in the deck, it is absolutely crucial to make every hand as playable as possible when we draw at least 1 rogue. With this in mind, I'm starting to believe we should just accept the fact that 4 wild cantors is a requirement. From a playstyle perspective, I think we should err on the side of caution when leaving a naked informer. For this reason and sacrificing to cabal therapy, I think balustrade spy in the sb is correct. We can always switch post-board to speed up the deck. The following list is what I've been messing with and it's been the least volatile as far as mulligans are concerned. Referencing my previous post regarding sb, I think hickory woodlot now belongs in the group of must-have utility lands.
4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Wild Cantor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Edit: with this new thinking in mind, I'm going to re-test manamorphose in LED's spot.
Edit #2: I remember why I hate manamorphose so much
Last edited by nudon; 04-02-2013 at 07:43 PM. Reason: Manamorphose
That's where I was. Right before I published this article I had 2 Wild Cantor, and I loved them. I cut one at the very last minute because I couldn't rationally justify or explain my position on it, except that it stores Chancellor mana and is great to flashback Therapy.
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Do we know yet, is the deck appreciably faster than Belcher?
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In my opinion, it's faster than belcher (even without LED) but also far more inconsistent. The two major problems with the deck is the number of dead cards and mana fixing. I think post #335 is my best iteration for attempting the main deck. Since then, I've put spy back in the sb, went to 4-1 narc/bridge split, and reverted back to lab maniac kill. The reason why I like unmask over pact of negation is because it lets you be proactive even when you don't have a good hand. You can discard their best card and buy yourself some time. The sideboard (post #342) is in much better shape fortunately. The only thing I would change about it right now is switching to 4-3 leyline/pact ratio.
I have issues cutting Bridge from Below just as much as I have issues playing 2 Bridge from Below, you're essentially committing yourself to play 4 Narcomoeba MD and 1 Balustrade Spy SB when having the option to play 4 Naromoeba and 1 Bridge from Below MD and 1 Undercity Informant SB is going to come up at some point.
I don't understand why you treat Cabal Therapy like a dead combo piece, Chrome Mox, Imprint Cabal Ritual, Cabal Therapy is one of my favorite lines vs Island, go and Summoner's Pact -> Wild Cantor to Flashback Cabal Therapy is a very real play. Obviously my personal experience is biased towards Sutured Ghoul, but if Sutured Ghoul lets you play a 3rd Cabal Therapy instead of a 3rd combo piece for more MD disruption and that 3rd Cabal Therapy imprints for black that's clearly better compared to a combo piece that imprints for Blue. My play test partner at least doesn't SB out Swords to Plowshares because it disrupts Undercity Informer, go.
I may try playing without Bridge from Below for awhile to see how bad it is, if we can offset 2xNarcomoeba draws with SB Balustrade Spy and 1xNarcomoeba Draws with SB Balustrade Spy and still flashback for Swords to Plowshares I may grow a pair of balls and just play 4 Narcomoeba, 1 Dread Return and the Sutured Ghoul Package as 7 dead cards because driving that number down is more important than anything else I can think of.
The scenarios that I can think of where you would want to swap informer post-board are ones where I don't really want to see bridge too. If you're concerned, there's always leaving bridge in the sb too. It's not that I don't like cabal therapy. My favorite deck is Elves and I run 4 in the sb. However, I'm trying to shave any card wherever possible just like you. For that reason, I'm still going back and forth on sutured ghoul too. Have you tried ghoul + only 2 therapy or is that too risky?
There are times where drawing 2 narcs is about the worst thing ever. However, having an extra bridge only helps in the event you draw 1. I agree every shaved dead card adds so much to the deck. On another note, what do you think of geothermal crevice as a replacement for peat bog? It still gives you black mana and ramps you two but gives you the option to cast wild cantor next turn and hope it doesn't die to removal so you can win the following turn.
Edit: Instead of replacing peat bog, I can play both by just using up another sb slot. It also helps turn on tinder wall (which I'm finding is more consistent than LED with playset of cantor) on the combo turn.
Last edited by nudon; 04-03-2013 at 04:36 AM.
I don't think casting 1 Wild Cantor is as important as casting Cabal Therapy and Under city Informer simultaneously off of Peat Bog because if you resolved Living Wish then Surgical Extraction is their only out left.
I SB Undercity Informer vs any deck I SB Lion's Eye Diamond against so the risk of drawing 2xNarcomoeba increases. That said the need for Cabal Therapy decreases post-board with the alternate kill con. Maybe we're over compensating for all of the drawing 2xNarcomoeba, drawing combo pieces and imprinting Therapy on Chrome Mox scenarios with Bridge from Below and 3xCabal Therapy but at least Cabal Therapy isn't a dead draw. There is no down side to playing 3 IMO.
I am not on board with 3+ Wild Cantor, storing mana just adds utility to STP. If I want to store mana then Grim Monolith is the most logical choice. I also don't think storing mana is as much of a concern with LED and even if the mana dissipates it still soft counters Daze on Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal.
I'm not certain what best replaces Bridge, i will find something, but I don't feel the need to cut Cabal Therapy at all because you're basically letting them Force of Will your business instead of your acceleration at little risk and pact for Cantor, Flashback Therapy is kind of a big deal.
3 Narcomoeba 2 Bridge Configurations are garbage, I SB out Bridge and 3 Therapy for 4 Leyline vs jund religiously.
Just the beginning but this new build is so much better than before. It's still rough but goldfishing has been very good so far!
4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Mox Opal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
4 Grim Monolith
//Sideboard
1 Swamp
1 Peat Bog
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Desecration Demon
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Fiend Hunter
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pact of Negation
Damn, Living Wish for Vault of Whispers in order to activate Metalcraft is a sweet, sweet idea for Vintage lists but I have no idea how it can work in Legacy, the problem with Mox Opal and Grim Monolith compared to Chancellor of the Tangle and Cabal Ritual is that Mox Opal is more conditional than Chancellor of the Tangle at the outset and Grim Monolith doesn't imprint for black mana. Actually facing an opponent with Daze is going to be a serious problem I think.
Thanks, I had the idea to try mox opal before but dismissed it too early because I thought turning on metalcraft would be a problem. It's actually been far more consistent than I anticipated. I like this build much more than ones with chancellor of the tangle because our topdeck is now way better. Before, drawing a chancellor would be deflating. Instead, I think we can actually grind out games now. With this list, we also have the option of cutting cabal ritual altogether for utility cards like bridge, the 4th cabal therapy, and any other form of disruption again. Grim monolith is definitely worse than cabal ritual but that's part of the price we pay because I think mox opal >> chancellor of the tangle. The insane thing about mox opal is that we have 4 more sources of reusable mana now. Better yet, it can produce any color. If you haven't tried out the list, I urge you to do so. Note that there is some risk of not hitting lethal with sutured ghoul now but I think it should still be fine.
Remember that essentially any hand with a rogue or living wish is a keep because of the nature of having only 11 win-cons. This makes our mulligans WAY better than before.
Last edited by nudon; 04-03-2013 at 02:58 PM. Reason: typo: cabal ritual
I'm not gonna dismiss the idea, but I can't aggree completely with your statement. Since Opal is legendary, having a second one drawn or in your opener is not a good thing. In this case I don't think it is a better topdeck then Chancelor since you can still imprint Chancelor on a Mox. But then again, haven't done any testing with it, so I could be completely wrong...
If you've played the deck at all, you'll know that imprinting something onto chrome mox is rarely an issue with the amount of dead cards in the deck.
He's talking about multiple mox opals.
Yes, I know he's referring to multiple mox opals. I am saying past turn 1, mox opals will almost always be better than chancellor of the tangle.
So basically speaking, the relevance of this deck in Legacy comes down to a single question:
Is the mana cost advantage - 4 mana for a Hermit vs. 4 mana *plus* 3 more mana at some later point in the game for Charbelcher activation - worth the increased exposure to graveyard hate that playing the Hermits creates?
Less cost to activate vs. more vulnerability to graveyard hate *in addition* to same level of vulnerability to anti-storm (Thalia, Thorn, Canonist, Teeg, Chalice, etc) hate.
Not really, because the Hermits win on the turn they are cast compared to Empty the Warrens the deck can have both MD and SB disruption in either the form of Cabal Therapy and/or Pact of Negation since it's possible to Chrome Mox, imprint Cabal Ritual and cast Cabal Therapy, go or play Undercity Informant, cast Pact of Negation and win immediately or cast Living Wish, bait counter spells because of Cavern of Souls or play another land or creature if they don't counter spell, go and cast Undercity Informant for only 3 mana and activate with Lion's Eye Diamond compared to Goblin Charbelcher and force a Spell Pierce on the card that reaches your 2nd mana sources compared to your 3rd mana source because of the 3cc of Undercity Informant. By being able to win a turn and win immediately Hermit can take its time, and by take its time I mean 1 more turn, and not let an active Stoneforge Mystic obsolete 7 out of 11 of your win conditions or force you to spin the wheel on a draw 7.
Most of the people who have compared Hermit.dec to Belcher or SI are frankly morons who haven't gold fished or play tested the deck in order to understand where the crucial differences in what mana sources and business cards the opponent has to counter and the efficiency of Pact of Negation post-board on the play. The critical weakness of Belcher is being caught in a linear play sequence vs Island, go where they are forced to play their acceleration into Daze, Spell Pierce and Force of Will or lose the efficacy of Empty the Warrens compared to being able to Cabal Therapy their opponent or bait with a Living Wish. Game 2 or 3 on the draw, Belcher has less mana efficient disruption than Hermit.dec because it has to cast Xantid Swarm and/or Autumn's Veil.
The critical difference comes down to Surgical Extraction basically being a better, free counter spell vs our deck and Tormod's Crypt being a 0 mana prison card, but Pact of Negation and Cabal Therapy help offset Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt is only played in RUG as far as relevant decks go. Leyline of the Void obviously wrecks us, but nobody plays Leyline of the Void, and Deathrite Shaman, Relic of Progentius and Rest in Peace are generally too slow.
So basically, the deck is more efficient and more resilient vs counter spells than Belcher game 1, has more disruption game 2 and that is off set by how much the opponent's hate impacts your Hermit plan. The other observation Steve has made is that Lion's Eye Diamond is a much more modular card for us than it is for Belcher, we can SB it out more aggressively on the draw than Belcher can.
I also think there are possibly "choke" points where the opponent's hate doesn't matter, for instance if you play Chancellor of Annex in the SB you can try to win on turn 1 on the play with Lion's Eye Diamond in the deck and nullify their Force of Will or Surgical Extraction. I'm starting to like Chancellor of the Annex more than Leyline of Sanctity because Tormod's Crypt doesn't really exist outside of RUG in anything relevant and it sets back the clock on Deathrite Shaman a turn, and Deathrite Shaman is much more real consideration than Tormod's Crypt.
I'm not saying Hermit is strictly better than Belcher vs a real metagame, but it's strictly better than Belcher in gold fishing and game 1 vs Island decks and that has to be weighted by how much worse it is post-board vs hate. If decks like Stoneblade and RUG get a little "smarter" and split their hate between Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt it'll be trouble for sure, but as long as SB hate is polarized to Surgical Extraction then Pact of Negation is pretty ridiculous.
Final Fortune, nice detailed explanation for people who are barely catching on. I think I have found the last card to glue our entire deck up together. Acceleration AND protection wrapped into one: Aether Vial. Forget 4 mana when you need only 1. It turns on mox opal too. Best part about it, we can lead with 4 md cabal therapy. The sb isn't done but has all of the wishboard lands already I think.
4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Grim Monolith
4 Ęther Vial
4 Dark Ritual
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
//Sideboard
1 Swamp
1 Peat Bog
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 City of Traitors
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Desecration Demon
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Leyline of Sanctity
Edit: Informer should probably be in the sb to take advantage of vial. That means I'll probably have to cut grim monolith to make room for bridge as well.
Edit 2: Forget desecration demon/thrun when we can vial in phyrexian revoker and harmonic sliver from the wishboard!!!
Edit 3: Vial also alleviates the problem of having multiple narcs stuck in hand.
Last edited by nudon; 04-03-2013 at 05:50 PM. Reason: Aether Vial
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