I think you're trolling with Aether VialOriginally Posted by nudon
Is Mox Opal and Grim Monolith a better acceleration package than Chancellor of the Tangle and Cabal Ritual, because gold fishing aside I think you'd be unable to SB out Lion's Eye Diamond for Pact of Negation and that's kind of a big deal? Have you tried the "main list" by removing Simian Spirit Guide and Cabal Ritual for Mox Opal and Grim Monolith? They're essentially the two worst mana sources for being 1B and generating R and you need about 20 artifacts in order to guarantee Metalcraft I think.
I don't think it works the moment you have to go to game 2 or opponent's just start countering your 3rd artifact, but it's definitely a novelty.
I still have no idea what you should replace Bridge with, I've flipped between a 2nd Wild Cantor and a Grim Monolith.
Sorry was searching up artifacts that could potentially fit in and thought vial could give control major problems with t1 spirit guide -> vial. However, it's probably too slow. In my testing, opal has been better over the course of the game than chancellor. I absolutely hate seeing chancellor as a topdeck. Cabal ritual is better than monolith but not by much since it doesn't work well with living wish (awkward hands like ESG, SSG, cabal ritual) while ramping you if played off of a chrome mox. Also, grim monolith is insane with city of traitors... SSG is too good to remove at this point for me since it gives me 1 unconditional mana. LED, petal, c. mox, mox opal, and grim monolith gives me 20 artifacts. Living wish -> vault of whispers or darksteel citadel provides 4 more copies as well.I think you're trolling with Aether Vial
Is Mox Opal and Grim Monolith a better acceleration package than Chancellor of the Tangle and Cabal Ritual, because gold fishing aside I think you'd be unable to SB out Lion's Eye Diamond for Pact of Negation and that's kind of a big deal? Have you tried the "main list" by removing Simian Spirit Guide and Cabal Ritual for Mox Opal and Grim Monolith? They're essentially the two worst mana sources for being 1B and generating R and you need about 20 artifacts in order to guarantee Metalcraft I think.
I don't think it works the moment you have to go to game 2 or opponent's just start countering your 3rd artifact, but it's definitely a novelty.
I still have no idea what you should replace Bridge with, I've flipped between a 2nd Wild Cantor and a Grim Monolith.
If they're countering your 0 mana artifacts, then having mox opal has already helped. As far as sb-ing is concerned, I am playing around with taking out any number of the 4 therapies and bridge right now. I think that gives space for up to 3 cards. For the non-artifact build, I'd go with a 2nd wild cantor or playset of therapy if you don't already have them.
Oh, don't worry, I've played the deck a lot. And not only in goldfishing, but in actual tournaments. And that gives a real feeling to how the deck performs. And that is why I'm sceptic about the Opals.
You're joking, right?
Jokes aside, you should be able to relate how bad it feels to draw a chancellor then. While I certainly understand the skepticism regarding opals, I'll reiterate what I said before about opal + monolith >> tangle + cabal ritual. Most of the time, cabal ritual just gets imprinted onto chrome mox and this seems like a very lackluster play to me. While the artifact count is borderline right now (20; 24 including wish), the ability to generate initial black mana off of mox opal to play cabal therapy is too good in my opinion. It's too bad most of the other artifact options are trash (i.e. chromatic star, baubles, welding jar, black talismans, etc).
I agree for most part with what you say. And yes, tangle is awful if it is drawn after the opener. But I'm concerned about the possible devastation an EE on 0 can cause if you go with a build that relies a lot on 0-mana artifacts.
On a different note: has anyone tried lotus bloom? But then again, using this would mean that we slow down by 3 turns. So that would be a no-go. It's just a bad idea.
EE is a minor issue, the major issue is whether or not playing Mox Opal prevents you from SBing out Lion's Eye Diamond because the asbsence of 4x artifacts makes Mox Opal inconsistent. Even if Mox Opal and Grim Monolith are better than Chancellor of the Tangle and Cabal Ritual game 1, and I don't think that's necessarily true, they essentially invalidate the Pact of Negation plan post-board. I have really mixed feelings about whether or not Mox Opal is worth that trade off.
Edit: And I think Chancellor of the Tangle is better than Simian Spirit Guide, G > R in this deck regardless of the top decking issues.
Just imagine about you are playing a Belcher deck, not this Maniac combo deck.
Your deck have petals, chrome moxes, and you always put LED maindeck.
Belcher itself is also an artifact.
You often want one card to produce mana twice, one for belcher, one for active the belcher the next turn.
And why you dont't play Mox Opal?
"It is inconsistant."
Last edited by Tokugawa; 04-05-2013 at 03:03 AM.
This deck resembles Belcher, that is in the way that it also wants to win as fast as possible, but it has big differences as opposed to Belcher. For starters, belcher plays only wincons and mana-acceleration MD. This deck has protection MD added, making it a bit more resilient then Belcher.
Secondly, Belcher has 2 ways to win (EtW & Belcher) and this deck has only 1 way to win (if you don't count hardcasting a critter and beating your stupefied opponent with it to death).
We've discussed why LED is not always MD a few posts back.
And again, Belcher is not played MD in this deck (for the moment). But we are still developping the deck and trying out different strategies, so maybe this can still change. And Opal is discussed also a few posts back and that list is now being tested.
If you have tried a list, feel free to post and comment on your findings!
Sorry, my poor English caused some confusion...I never mean playing this deck(call it Allspells or some other name) is similar to playing a belcher.
My opinion in that reply is: Mox Opal is inconsistent, Both in belcher and Allspells.
It's not inconsistent MD, between Grim Monolith and Living Wish -> Vault of Whispers it's a reliable mana source, the problem is, as I stated before, that SBing out Lion's Eye Diamond for Pact of Negation is no longer possible because Mox Opal subsequently loses consistency with only 12 non Mox Opal artifacts remaining.
However, I'm at a loss for why Mox Opal hasn't been tried before in a deck like Belcher in order to replace lesser mana acceleration such as Seething Song and/or Chancellor of the Tangle with Grim Monolith and Mox Opal, perhaps it has to do with a decreasing marginal utility as you mulligan? That said, I think Mox Opal and Grim Monolith are a red herring, once you start to actually mulligan aggressively and play post-board games the seemingly superior mana acceleration falls apart spectacularly.
Another issue I'd like to bring up is the wish board, because frankly we are destroying our SB by playing 4 Lands and an alternate win condition when we could be playing 1 Balustrade Spy, 1 Swamp and anywhere between 3 and 5 more useful cards. Because altho' SBing in the Angel of Glory's Rise and Fiend Hunter kill condition allows us to reduce Cabal Therapy to 1x in the MD, cutting Cabal Therapy to 1x in the MD isn't necessarily best and if the opponent does try to target our kill condition with random, bullshit hate like Peacekeeper we could possibly SB in Goblin Charbelcher anyway.
I also think the "need" for Swamp may just be from us totally misplaying lands into Wasteland, because there's no reason to play City of Brass the turn you wish for it unless you're going to win the turn you wish for it. If you have to wait for Chrome Mox to untap, then you can just hold onto City of Brass and those mythical times the opponent has a Wasteland for your City of Brass and doesn't have a Lightning Bolt for your Undercity Informer while you wait for your land to untap are kind of bullshit.
After more extensive testing, I want to shed some [negative] light on mox opal. While the magic number of 16 blue cards works for pitching to FoW, mox opal isn't as consistent for 2 reasons: metalcraft requires 3 artifacts instead of 2 and grim monolith needs an initial investment of 2 mana. While there is definitely possibility for some explosive hands, it also hurts having grim monolith stuck in hand and not being able to turn on metalcraft. This problem is compounded with living wish hands in which we can't use summoner's pact to play grim monolith since we don't have 6 mana yet. Moreover, the double opal hand is absolutely atrocious (probably why belcher doesn't play it) as indicated in previous posts. This effort was not completely wasted though as I realized I really hate LED sometimes and I think it's worth exploring replacing LED entirely with grim monolith. The argument for this is that LED is dead unless we have a way to get up to 3 mana first. Grim monolith is 1 mana faster, stores chancellor mana, and ramps us if played off a chrome mox. Finally, pact of negation is live again.
I totally agree about destroying our sb and now think there's no reason to play more than these 5 lands: peat bog, hickory woodlot, cavern of souls, city of traitors, and city of brass (good catch about keeping it in hand). I know I haven't explained why I think hickory woodlot is a must yet but here's why. There are very many games where you'll have a hand with 2 living wish, ESG, SSG, lotus petal, and some other junk. The play would be to use the ESG + SSG and wish for woodlot, setting up a next turn wish -> rogue. I think we should just eshew the alternate win-con in the sb entirely because we still need to keep cabal therapy in to name StP. It might be better to have something like abrupt decay (pitches to chrome mox pretty nicely too).
Edit: Here's my latest list if anyone's curious.
4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Grim Monolith - 4 monoliths vs 3 c. ritual because it provides a lot of utility (store chancellor mana, ramp with mox, better with heavy spirit guide hand + living wish)
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
3 Pact of Negation - 3 instead of 4 because double PoN in hand is not what I want to see
Sideboard
1 City of Brass
1 Peat Bog
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
1 Balustrade Spy
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Pact of Negation
2 Dismember - specifically to deal with DRS/hate bears
2 Nature's Claim - RiP, LotV, crypt, relic, spellbomb
The only hate this deck can't beat is faerie macabre but the sb can be tweaked according to the known meta.
Last edited by nudon; 04-05-2013 at 03:19 PM.
I agree, I've found the only real use of Angel of Glory's Rise and Fiend Hunder is to create MD space for SB cards post-board by being able to SB down to 1 Cabal Therapy, it's useful in the vs Jund and Junk match ups where you'd rather play 4 Leyline of Sanctity without losing speed. I've also experiemented with playing Chancellor of the Annex instead of Leyline of Sanctity just because Deathrite Shaman is a more realistic threat than Tormod's Crypt and you can use it out of the SB and on the play vs aggro-control and control in order to keep Lion's Eye Diamond in the MD.
I like Grim Monolith quite a bit, but I'm not certain I like it enough to play 4. It's a card I'd be very curious to replace Lion's Eye Diamond with just to see if that form of acceleration was any more or less consistent or utilitarian.
Gemstone Mine is almost strictly superior to City of Brass as a Wish target here, no? Geothermal Crevice might be better than Woodlot/Bog too.
I can agree on Gemstone mine, but not on Crevice. The whole purpose of playing woodlot/Bog is exactly as stated a few posts above with hands that have double Wish. Because these lands give you 2 mana a time (and this twice) makes them better then a land that gives you 1 mana and must be sacrificed to gain 2 mana.
has mind grind been considered and if yes why don't we use it? also i have been trying some of your lists from time to time (goldfishing on cockatrice) some times altering them. here is my current list
4 chrome mox
4 lotus petal
3 balustrade spy
4 chancellor of the tangle
4 of each spirit guide
4 narcomoeba
4 undercity informer
1 sutured ghoul
3 tinder wall
2 wild cantor
1 dragon breath
3 cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
3 pact o' negation
4 pact o' summoning
3 cabal theray
1 dread return
4 living wish
sideboard:
1 balustrade spy
4 leyline o' sanctity
1 fiend hunter
1 angel o' glory's rise
2 nature's claim
1 pact o' negation
1 peat bog
1 hicory woodlot
1 city of traitors
1 city of brass
1 cavern o' souls
last but not least what does city of traitors do for us?
Mind grind only affects opponents. City of traitors is for hands with 1 black, 1 green, 1 other initial mana source, and undercity informer. Living wish allows us to grab city of traitors and play undercity informer the same turn. You can then reuse city of traitors next turn to activate informer's ability. It also can be used to play grim monolith the same turn living wish was cast (useful for double living wish hands).
Hi guys,
I come from Italy and I love this deck because it is a BomB infact you can close game very quickly:
Actually this is my list:
Main Deck:60
4 Street Wraith
1 Wild Cantor
4 Undercity Informer
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Narcomoeba
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Balustrade Spy
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Dread Return
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Pact of Negation
1 Worldly Tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Bridge from Below
2 Manamorphose
Sideboard:15
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Pact of Negation
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Laboratory Maniac
SB: 3 Chancellor of the Annex
Metagame of Italy is full of UW rest in peace, Bug, Canadian, Maverik and Death and Texas!
Hard Life for Combo :)
What do u think of my list?
I've been goldfishing with your list, and the only real change I made was changing Balustrade Spy for Undercity informer in the sb (more likely to combo out turn 2 that way).
Out of 151 goldfishs, i was able to combo on turn 1 exactly 103 times. I have no idea if Belcher or SI can pull out a higher turn 1 kill chance than this list, but those 66% sounds good enough to me. I mulled very Agressively to achieve that result (had lots of 4-5 cards hands that were able to T1-T2 kill)
Also, I've been thinking about running a Wasteland/GhostQuarter in the SB, to have an out to T1 Maze of Ith. I don't know if the 3rd Therapy is really required too, since you won't have enough creatures to cast those AND Dread return Sutured Ghoul.
Btw, I hope you guys can understand my "English".
Hi Modus! I'm glad you tested and like my list. I thought about having wasteland in the sb as well but ultimately decided not to because maze of ith is usually only played as a singleton in knight of the reliquary decks (43 lands too but rare to see those). Also, the likelihood your opponent plays maze on the first few turns is low. That said, I think it's fine if others included it.
The 3rd therapy is a direct result of me running balustrade spy in the sb and not including bridge from below. Sometimes, I'll run into the situation where I'll have a therapy and a combo piece in hand. While the second therapy can discard the combo piece, I felt it was nice to be able to name FoW/StP with the 3rd therapy. Playing therapy off a chrome mox came up quite often too. However, if you want more speed by swapping spy and informer in the sb, I agree the 3rd therapy isn't necessary.
No worries, I understood your English just fine. :)
Yea, maybe i shouldn't bother with Wasteland.
So, which one do you think is a better replacement for the 3rd Therapy: Deathrite shaman or the 4th Cabal Rit? Or something else entirely?
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