[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[Mastikor]

That's really cool tech! I can see it gaining a lot of tempo. I think it's worse than Sinkhole, though. It's probably better against Esper, but a very big reason for Sinkhole is the jund matchup. Jund not only has Deathrite but also has Abrupt Decay to get out of a Winter Orb lock.

I know, but I feel Jund matchup is quite good as it is. Some extra removal and maybe 3rd Tombstlker off board deals nicely with Jund in my experiance. I felt Esperblade to be a bigger problem. Also, gaining 1-2 extra slots in SB is very nice.

[Barbed Blightning]

I know, but I feel Jund matchup is quite good as it is. Some extra removal and maybe 3rd Tombstlker off board deals nicely with Jund in my experiance. I felt Esperblade to be a bigger problem. Also, gaining 1-2 extra slots in SB is very nice.

The Jund matchup is far from good at all. It's a deck designed to tear any non-combo deck to tatters. Between Pfire, bolt and Decay killing all of your non-tombstalker creatures and Lilly killing TS on an otherwise empty board, to say nothing of Bloodbraid vs. any blue deck.

Esper isn't that hard, imo, esp. with a Plague on Spirit. Like any control deck, just don't overcommit and you'll get there.

[kingsey]

Played this deck to my second placing at my local weekly.

1st place and this week I got 3rd.

I'm looking to perfect my mana base.

I only have 3 Seas at the moment I've been running

4 mistys
4 catacombs
4 wastelands
3 seas
2 tropical
1 bayou

I've never been mana screwed but I only see lists with 4 seas. I'm thinking about going to 3/2/2. Just looking for what other people are running.

[Maximus]

I'm still on:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

I've seen a lot of players go to 2 Bayou and 1 Tropical Island, which I didn't like. The difference is so narrow when playing a regular game that it's basically moot, and shipping hands because you don't have the blue source hurts. This deck dislikes mulligans enough to justify the switch IMO.

[Barbed Blightning]

I'm still on:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

I've seen a lot of players go to 2 Bayou and 1 Tropical Island, which I didn't like. The difference is so narrow when playing a regular game that it's basically moot, and shipping hands because you don't have the blue source hurts. This deck dislikes mulligans enough to justify the switch IMO.

With 9 fetches it's hard to be screwed out of blue or any color for that matter; however being screwed out of double black hurts more, imo, because you want to hit hymn and stalker consistently. Again, mostly moot

[Maximus]

With 9 fetches it's hard to be screwed out of blue or any color for that matter; however being screwed out of double black hurts more, imo, because you want to hit hymn and stalker consistently. Again, mostly moot

I haven't had a problem casting Hymn for the most part, or at least any casting issues I've had with it are less bad than a marginal amount of extra mulligans. I probably should have also mentioned that I cut them for only Thoughtseize too though.

I generally find that my turn 3 or 4 Tombstalkers aren't really affected by the lands I keep in my opening hand. That could be a statement to the flexibility of the low curve, or me for being bad and not paying attention to it.

[phazonmutant]

With 9 fetches it's hard to be screwed out of blue or any color for that matter; however being screwed out of double black hurts more, imo, because you want to hit hymn and stalker consistently. Again, mostly moot

Agreed with this. Over the course of probably 30 games I've fetched Tropical Island 3 times. I was counting. It's also screwed me off BB turn 2 when I had only it and another land in hand a couple times. Very tempted to cut it because it doesn't help make BB, but none of the options seem better.

Things I looked at: 10th Fetch, 1st Watery Grave, 1st Darkslick Shores
Darkslick Shores is actually not that terrible.

[Barbed Blightning]

I haven't had a problem casting Hymn for the most part, or at least any casting issues I've had with it are less bad than a marginal amount of extra mulligans. I probably should have also mentioned that I cut them for only Thoughtseize too though.

I generally find that my turn 3 or 4 Tombstalkers aren't really affected by the lands I keep in my opening hand. That could be a statement to the flexibility of the low curve, or me for being bad and not paying attention to it.

It's ultimately moot as you said, though. I always grab underground sea first and with DRS it's never really a problem making BB. I prefer having the ability to make it off my lands, though.

Watery Grave sounds intriguing; darkslick, by contrast, does not. Fetchability > life loss.

[phazonmutant]

It's ultimately moot as you said, though. I always grab underground sea first and with DRS it's never really a problem making BB. I prefer having the ability to make it off my lands, though.

Watery Grave sounds intriguing; darkslick, by contrast, does not. Fetchability > life loss.

Exactly once I've been Wasted off Underground. In contrast, I've had a shitty Tropical Island in my hand several times. If I have 2 or so lands in hand I can plan around Darkslick, if I have more than 3 lands in play I should be holding Darkslick for Brainstorm anyway almost every time. I don't think it's as unreasonable as you claim.

[Purgatory]

I only own one Bayou, and no Verdant Catacombs, and since me and the gf are moving in together later this spring, I can't spend any money on expensive duals or fetches. Therefor, I've been rocking:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 other (sometimes an Island, sometimes a completely different card)

Ideally, I want to play this configuration:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

Assuming I play 4 Hymns and 2 Stalkers and desire BB early in the game.

[catmint]

Am I the only one you have had issues with the manabase or are you guys just forgetting about these situations.

What comes up very regularly is:
2 colored lands
No deathrite (killed or not available)
Turn 2 Hymn
Decay or Goyf in hand
Ponder, Brainstorm or Daze in hand requiring an Island.

If you go for U-Sea and Bayou to gain the ability of casting all the spells you loose the ability to cast all cantrips and daze in case U-sea is wasted. If you then don't draw another blue source in a timely manner there is a good chance to loose the game to a wasteland, which is also a common card.

If you go for 2 Usea instead you need to cantrip into your mana for Goyf and Decay. BB for Stalker is much less of a problem since it is not a turn 2 play.

To me this has power vs. consitency written all over it. In general the manabase is not appropriate for the high curve with a lot of multicolor 2 drops hence often the deck does not function properly without a deathrite.

It is an ok approach to go for power with a shaky manabase - this concept had a lot of success in the past (at the moment BUG Delver is not that hot), but statements like "my mana is fine" and "i never had trouble with it" don't sound right to me.

[Barbed Blightning]

Am I the only one you have had issues with the manabase or are you guys just forgetting about these situations.

What comes up very regularly is:
2 colored lands
No deathrite (killed or not available)
Turn 2 Hymn
Decay or Goyf in hand
Ponder, Brainstorm or Daze in hand requiring an Island.

If you go for U-Sea and Bayou to gain the ability of casting all the spells you loose the ability to cast all cantrips and daze in case U-sea is wasted. If you then don't draw another blue source in a timely manner there is a good chance to loose the game to a wasteland, which is also a common card.

If you go for 2 Usea instead you need to cantrip into your mana for Goyf and Decay. BB for Stalker is much less of a problem since it is not a turn 2 play.

To me this has power vs. consitency written all over it. In general the manabase is not appropriate for the high curve with a lot of multicolor 2 drops hence often the deck does not function properly without a deathrite.

It is an ok approach to go for power with a shaky manabase - this concept had a lot of success in the past (at the moment BUG Delver is not that hot), but statements like "my mana is fine" and "i never had trouble with it" don't sound right to me.

....all right, so what's your point? If my manabase is so shaky (which it has never been for the past two months I've been playing with the deck) what would you run? Canadian runs all duals, why shouldn't we?

[jarvisyu]

....all right, so what's your point? If my manabase is so shaky (which it has never been for the past two months I've been playing with the deck) what would you run? Canadian runs all duals, why shouldn't we?

It's shaky only versus Wasteland decks, and only sometimes. Running all duals is fine. It's probably greedier to play a basic land (something that I've around on since the very early days of my trying different BUG decks) than not to.

[catmint]

It is not about chaning the manabase but the curve. Lowering from BB to B (thoughtseize) has a significant impact on how the deck plays out in terms of smootheness of mana but is in some situations (not all) also less powerful. It also has an impact on the powerlevel of the sinkhole plan since hymn discarding lands and resources is a better addon to playing sinkhole. Never tried it but it is logical that sinkhole with thoughtseize is much less powerful than sinkhole with hymn.

So the discussion is not about changing the mana but running thoughtseize over hymn.

Summing up my thoughts:
Thoughtseize:
+ good mana & consistency
+ Better versus combo
- No card advantage

Hymn:
+ potentially higher power
+ better versus midrangy decks
+ Good in conjunction with Sinkhole
- awkward mana
- bad versus GY combo
- sometimes 1 specific card is more important than 2 random

I am not set on what the better plan is and if thoughtseize I am unclear on what sidebaord tech to use vs. Esper.

Edit: Basics are not an option. Yes, shaky only against wasteland decks: RUG, BUG, Jund, Maverick, Goblins and many other random Tier 2 decks. Not sure but I think Wasteland is the most played card in legacy.

[Purgatory]

....all right, so what's your point? If my manabase is so shaky (which it has never been for the past two months I've been playing with the deck) what would you run? Canadian runs all duals, why shouldn't we?

Canadian isn't comparable really, we play cards with mana costs all over the place (B/G), BB, 1G, U and so on, Canadian has roughly 24 cards that can be cast with a single Volcanic or Tropical in play.

[Barbed Blightning]

It is not about chaning the manabase but the curve. Lowering from BB to B (thoughtseize) has a significant impact on how the deck plays out in terms of smootheness of mana but is in some situations (not all) also less powerful. It also has an impact on the powerlevel of the sinkhole plan since hymn discarding lands and resources is a better addon to playing sinkhole. Never tried it but it is logical that sinkhole with thoughtseize is much less powerful than sinkhole with hymn.

So the discussion is not about changing the mana but running thoughtseize over hymn.

Summing up my thoughts:
Thoughtseize:
+ good mana & consistency
+ Better versus combo
- No card advantage

Hymn:
+ potentially higher power
+ better versus midrangy decks
+ Good in conjunction with Sinkhole
- awkward mana
- bad versus GY combo
- sometimes 1 specific card is more important than 2 random

I am not set on what the better plan is and if thoughtseize I am unclear on what sidebaord tech to use vs. Esper.

Edit: Basics are not an option. Yes, shaky only against wasteland decks: RUG, BUG, Jund, Maverick, Goblins and many other random Tier 2 decks. Not sure but I think Wasteland is the most played card in legacy.

Fair points, though I wouldn't say that thoughtseize is better against combo flat out; against storm or belcher your life total and the # of cards in their hand are both very relevant and hymn can cut them down hard.

Thoughtseize is better versus two-card decks like S&T or Reanimator (though I still like hymn vs them anyway) and Dredge, where taking a breakthrough can lead to victory.

The fact that hymn is also awesome against midrangy stuff is what sells it over thoughtseize for me. That said, I've been trying to figure out a means of lowering the curve and thoughtseize is the best starting point for that.


@Purgatory: And with our mana costs so diverse, we should run a more dual-heavy manabase. So... I'm right, then?

[goblinsplayer]

Fair points, though I wouldn't say that thoughtseize is better against combo flat out; against storm or belcher your life total and the # of cards in their hand are both very relevant and hymn can cut them down hard.

Thoughtseize is better versus two-card decks like S&T or Reanimator (though I still like hymn vs them anyway) and Dredge, where taking a breakthrough can lead to victory.

The fact that hymn is also awesome against midrangy stuff is what sells it over thoughtseize for me. That said, I've been trying to figure out a means of lowering the curve and thoughtseize is the best starting point for that.


@Purgatory: And with our mana costs so diverse, we should run a more dual-heavy manabase. So... I'm right, then?

Well, thoughtseize costs 1, which helps against combo decks like TES and belcher. Against storm and those kind of decks, you might not even get to cast hymn. By the way, is it an option to run bob instead of stalker in this deck?

[Einherjer]

By the way, is it an option to run bob instead of stalker in this deck?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post713477

[Barbed Blightning]

Well, thoughtseize costs 1, which helps against combo decks like TES and belcher. Against storm and those kind of decks, you might not even get to cast hymn. By the way, is it an option to run bob instead of stalker in this deck?

Seize also shocks you which against ANT/TES equals 1 less storm.

Hymn is also a super star vs burn.

[Maximus]

I play Thoughtseize over Hymn at the moment. I'd rather pull a removal spell over random cards. Take care of your threats so your threats can take care of your opponent. IMO.