I'm glad Arianhrod is on this thread with us lol he's going to help make Rock DTB again.
I would just like to say, that we shouldn't assume every show n tell deck is sneak attack. Therefore packing hate for that one particular version isn't the best thing. The Enter the Infinite version exists and so does the Omniscience version. You might not run across it as much but when they go off, they win much better than sneak attack. So far Junk has certain cards that already make this match-up(sneak attack) a little better; Maze of Ith, Karakas, Knights, Lingering Souls, and discard (including liliana). I had Humility but that card can almost be a meta call. If your going to SCG Milwaukee, I say bring in angel of despair or o-rings. For me I brought in O-rings, even though I argue it most of the time but being able to cast it against other decks is pretty good, I can get Jace, Leylines, and just stuff that slows me down. Oblivion Ring I think is great not best but certainly does the job and is good against all versions of show n tell. I also have in my side pithing needle although I like Phyrexian Revoker better lol... but pithing needle is harder to remove and it hits fetchlands muahaha... and its one mana cheaper.
Blind Obedience is awesome and I am considering it, it just makes you a little faster than your opponent and poking for 1 can go a long way.
Goyfs and Thoughtseizes incoming! Woo!
still struggeling a lot with the goblin matchup
my list is one page back, can someone give me some advice how to beat goblins consistently with that list?
against goblins i have problems of knowing when to mull ans specially what to sideboard
in would come kitchen finks, golgari charm, deed, ..... but i have a hard time deciding what to take out, because an the play some discard would still be quite good, on the draw i would never want them
what would you guys board and what would you take out, and what cards make a hand a keeper?
i really need help here
I'd board -2 Vindicate -2 Liliana, -3 Thoughtseize, and +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Pernicious Deed, and +3 Kitchen Finks.Originally Posted by AggroSteve
Liliana is less good against Goblins as they have a many ways of generating 1/1 tokens that they'll gladly sacrifice. Tapping out and making them discard on turn 3 seems dicey when facing a deck with hasters, eot Vial activations, etc. She's less good that Charm at getting rid of dudes. Same thought process goes into Vindicate. It just is a bit too slow for what it does; 1 for 1 when they're all about generating board advantage. Deed is slow too, but it at least with wipe the board on turn 4, so you'll take that risk of tapping out on turn 3 if it means a (mostly) clear board on turn 4. Thoughtseize (discard in general) becomes less good when life totals can quickly swing from healthy to dead (Piledriver, MWM, haste-enabling Goblins, etc), and Finks allows you catch your breath for a turn while trying to find your sweepers. Keep the Cabal Therapy if you're going to keep any discard as their Matron and Ringleaders will give you Cabal Therapy targets.
Deed is also actually not that amazing against Goblins because their mana curve goes up as high as 5 and Deed is very mana intensive (you may be dead before you can effectively use it). They also reload after a large board sweeper better than we do.
I prefer to keep Thoughtseizes in because while it does hurt us, I believe it's key to take their Ringleaders and SGC in the matchup.
If you have reusable removal like Jittes, those need to come in as well.
In my experience, Vial + Lackey + sometimes they literally won't have a hand until they hit a Ringleader, makes discard less good versus them. Unless they just reloaded their hand with Ringleader or tutored with Matron, and didn't cast any of their newly found dudes that same turn, I just have found Thoughtseize to be unimpressive. Their deck is fairly redundant (lots and lots of 4-ofs), so picking their dude out of their hand is okay, but not as impactful as other cards you could be boarding in.
Yes, Deed is slow, but so is Vindicate and Liliana of the Veil, so if you're going to board in/out anything, you'll be boarding out Vindicate and bringing in Deed. Goblins generates a lot of board advantage, seemingly out of nowhere sometimes, and their dudes are just redundant bodies most times (outside of their Piledrivers and toolbox 1-ofs), so Deed is the lesser of the suckier, slow options we have at dealing with them.
against goblins, my plan is to discard their vial and utility creatures like matron/ringleader, then StP their lackeys / skirk prospector, decay their vials. find a stoneforge with jitte/batterskull and swing for the win.. my Sideboard option here is engineered plague. :)
Also, we still run Goyf and that's a pretty good card against tribal decks. I'm running the Souls/SFM build, so I basically stall/outgrind them without really straining too much (Sharpshooter can be a pain, but I hope to have at least 1 removal spell in hand for him, and he's usually just a 1-of also).
Hmm, maybe I'll have to re-evaluate discard versus them, but I've never found it to be better than actual board control elements. Discard is too swingy as the Goblins players either has no cards (just playing them all) or they'll have a grip (thanks to Ringleader) and their deck is really redundant (lots of 4-ofs) which reduces discard's effectiveness.
I think most has been said, and I'm being captain obvious now, but about the keepers: if you are on the play, keep a hand with a discard, if you are on the draw, keep a hand with stp. If you can prevent the first lackey from connecting, you'll have MUCH more time... by casting a shaman or a goyf, you are already 2 steps ahead.
What you're describing is always the problem with discard regardless of what deck you're playing against. However, in the Goblins matchup, I don't actually find that their deck is super redundant in terms of what we care about. Little stuff like Warchief, War Marshall, Piledriver, even Goblin Lackey to some extent (we only care if they play it T1 and we don't have an answer to it, but between DRS and StP, we have a better chance of having an answer than they do of having a Lackey), we generally don't care that much about since we tend to have bigger creatures and removal. In this matchup, we need to just make sure we don't get killed in the early game and make sure we deal with their card advantage (Ringleaders, SGC, Matron). Discard is what will hit their card advantage. Sweeping the board away with Deed when they have a Ringleader in hand doesn't do us any good.
Also, by removing discard and bringing in too many expensive board control spells, you push up your mana curve even higher against a deck that's known for its speed + disruption of enemy manabases.
Discard is far more effective versus certain decks than others, this cannot be disputed. Goblins is a deck that discard is far less effective against than it would be against something like RUG Delver. Weighing my sideboard options using AggroSteve's list, I'll definitely want Golgari Charm (without Chieftain, Charm is essentially a 2cc instant WoG against Goblins) over Vindicate, definitely want Deed over Liliana of the Veil, then I suppose we disagree on Finks or TSeize. I value turn 3 (maybe turn 2 with DRS) Finks and the immediate life + board stability it provides over taking 2 damage to snag their Ringleader (imo, the best card in Goblins).
Very simply you need to stop goblins from doing what they are best at - generating CA, well, you can not really stop them but you can delay things. You are aggro, they are control. The best way how to beat them is play as many tarmogoyfs as possible, have some kill spells and obviously discard is insanely good against them. Cabal Therapy as well if you play it. You can decay their first turn Vial - that will slow them down and make your goyfs bigger. You can usully ignore the other ones and save decay for Warchief or Piledriver. Good news is that Shaman can block Lackey. It is good idea to waste their 4th land so they can not slam Ringleader from the top. Beware of Perish after board. Good luck!
Against Goblins, I'd rather have Thoughtseize over Deed if that's the choice. Golgari Charm is fine because it only costs 2 and clears away their chaff. Finks is fine because it does exactly what you want it to do, which is keep them from killing you quickly.
Packing 6 discard spells seems too much. AggroSteve's list has 4 Seize + 2 Therapy; don't you just run out of stuff to discard while taking 2 in the process after a while? My board plan still gives him 3 discard spells to hit Goblins' important 3-4cc spells.
It's actually not that hard of a match up at all. Just be patient, if u discard, get their tutors, also look at their mana base it's not very strong. stp and decay things that needs to be removed. If you have drs out, just clock at them to lose life or gain life. Only deed when shit gets out of hand lol don't deed every time you get the chance. Also don't be afraid to take damage, if a warchief and a matron swings while u have a tapped goyf then okay lol... remember rock is considered an aggro control deck not a drop big shit i win deck lol. I honestly think that discard is good and DRS in this match up.
Funnily enough I was actually thinking about testing a sideboard Goblin Sharpshooter in our deck. I know, 4C is bad, but we have DRS. It breaks the stalls like Souls wars, Goblin tokens and picks off Dark Confidants, Delvers, etc.
I'm not saying it's GOOD, I was just brainstorming last night about possible cards.
Also, Sorin was VERY good last night. I tried him in place of Elspeth, and in the matchups I played (BUG Landstill, Goblins) he was slightly better than Elspeth.
I'll test the two Planeswalker slots against the control matchups and see how it goes.
-Matt
I always like 6 discard spells because you actually want to see them.
Think about it like this:
1) If they have no hand and you're not dead, you're probably fine.
2) If they have cards in hand and it's mid-late game, it's probably something you want to grab with the discard spell.
Having 3 discard spells isn't going to give you good chances of seeing them early at all when it's most important to actually hit those spells.
Also keep in mind that by removing your discard for slower 3 drop stuff (especially cards like Deed), you're really slowing down your curve against a deck that runs 4x Wasteland and 4x Port.
In #1, you'd be fine with either TSeize or Deed, so that's sorta moot.
In #2, if it's mid-late game, they have cards in hand, mana available, and are holding onto their cards, I'm usually thinking it's (a.) land cards that don't matter and he's trying to bluff or (b.) dead Aether Vials that he's trying to bluff. If he has 5+ mana available, draws a card, doesn't cast it, I'm probably not going to give him a free 2 life to find out. Usually, Goblins will cast whatever they draw unless they're really, really at a bad board state (facing down Moat with only 1 out in their deck, etc).
And if you have removal for their Lackey, you strand Ringleader in their hand long enough to rip it out on Turn 2-4. If not, then hell yes you want turn 1 discard to get their nastiest Lackey trigger dude (prolly Ringleader).
Am I missing something? Did Goblins become enough of a threat that we need to board things specifically for that match?
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
AggroSteve asked about boarding for Goblins as he said he was having problems versus it; I assume Goblins is present in his local meta.
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