[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

[Arsenal]

You can't continue to say "you lack experience" as an excuse (well, you could, but you continue to lose credibility) because it isn't a valid excuse since any John Doe can claim someone lacks experience. You lack any data showing that your claims are valid. Provide proof that your deck performs as you claim or drop it.

I offered to play him at SCG Open Milwaukee this month if he shows.

MGB -

Next time you have an online/irl playtesting session, please record your vids and throw them up on youtube. Just use your cellphone camera if you lack any better recording equipment, I don't care about quality. Just let me see your magical 65% win ratio deck in action.

[MGB]

Because I live in reality? High tide doesn't care about Jace's Fateseal. The deck gets stronger as the game goes on (and it will drag on and on). High Tide will have plenty of time to deal with Chalice@1 and then win through counters. High tide can meditate and skip a turn without fear. If the MUC player counters the meditate, that's one less counter High Tide will need to go through when it goes off. A deck like RUG runs less counters, but is an actual challenge to high tide because it has a clock. Against RUG, High Tide only has like 5 turns to sculpt a winning hand that can fight through disruption.

Also, Clavio, the great thing about Misdirection is that it effectively counters all Turnabout! And it also wins counterwars against Force of Will from the High Tide deck.

[MGB]

I offered to play him at SCG Open Milwaukee this month if he shows.

I'll try to make it up there. I need to find a bit more cash for lodging (hotel, etc) but I hope to make it up.

[clavio]

You have no clue what you are talking about.

High Tide is not some "magical" deck that has infinite counters and infinite threats and infinite ways around opposing counters. The basic theory of magic holds true here. High Tide is not drawing cards, and I am. I am drawing more answers than he has threats in most situations.

And if I land a Chalice, I counter 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 High Tide, 4 Preordain at the very least. That means more dead draws for him and more card advantage for me AND he can't go off until he bounces the Chalice. Then I just have to counter other things he draws, or play my Clique to send them to the bottom of his library or use Jace fateseal. All the while I am drawing more cards with both Vision and/or Jace while he has to be content with 1 card per turn.

Please test the matchup before talking, please.

You literally can't draw an additional card until turn 4. High Tide has probably seen a third of his deck by then. It is the opposite of what you said, the MUC player is watching the High Tide player draw cards (and play shit like merchant scroll). When High Tide goes off, his hand will be crazy good. Yes, chalice is annoying, but wipe away deals with it just fine. Relying on drawing a sideboard card every game 2/3 is bad. The only chance MUC has is hoping the High Tide player has the worst Time Spiral in the universe.

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MGB has to be Cavius.

[Arsenal]

I'll try to make it up there. I need to find a bit more cash for lodging (hotel, etc) but I hope to make it up.

If you can't, it's cool, money is tight with everyone. However, you most certainly can upload youtube vids of your playtesting sessions for no cost. Like I said, just use your cellphone camera to record the matches if you lack better equipment.

[Koby]

Also, Clavio, the great thing about Misdirection is that it effectively counters all Turnabout! And it also wins counterwars against Force of Will from the High Tide deck.

You lack an understanding of how cards work. The only target selected upon casting is "target player". The mode is selected upon resolution. If you Misdirect the Turnabout to yourself, its caster can pick "tap lands".

[MGB]

You literally can't draw an additional card until turn 4. High Tide has probably seen a third of his deck by then. It is the opposite of what you said, the MUC player is watching the High Tide player draw cards (and play shit like merchant scroll). When High Tide goes off, his hand will be crazy good. Yes, chalice is annoying, but wipe away deals with it just fine. Relying on drawing a sideboard card every game 2/3 is bad. The only chance MUC has is hoping the High Tide player has the worst Time Spiral in the universe.

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MGB has to be Cavius.

I've actually *tested* the matchup multiple times against many Spiral Tide lists piloted by competent pilots. You have not. The matchup is stacked in MUC's favor. Maybe if you actually played against MUC, and a decent version of a MUC list, you wouldn't be so blatantly wrong about this matchup.

High Tide does not "go off" within the first three turns. No smart combo player will be going off that early against mono blue unless he is playing something that is forced to go off early like Belcher or Rogue Hermit.

What usually happens is that my Counterspell, Spell Pierce, and Force of Will are enough to protect me in the early turns, and then I draw more answers with Vision and/or Jace.

again, Chalice is game-ending against Storm-based combo. You are FORCED to remove it. That means you have to first a.) draw a Cunning Wish and then b.) cast Cunning Wish for Wipe Away. That is not a given by any means, and I have 4 Chalice and counters to back it up and Vendilion Clique to make you put Wipe Away / Cunning Wish on the bottom of your library.

You have to remember that High Tide combo only has a few relevant spells the control palyers needs to counter. Draw spells like Meditate, stuff like Merchant Scroll, and Cunning Wish. Most of the rest I can ignore. I've won games where I let High Tide player play High Tide into stuff, then I just redirected Turnabout and forced him to fizzle.

MUC beats High Tide so easily it's not even funny.

[MGB]

You lack an understanding of how cards work. The only target selected upon casting is "target player". The mode is selected upon resolution. If you Misdirect the Turnabout to yourself, its caster can pick "tap lands".

The point is that he is tapped out, and needs to cast Turnabout to continue his combo turn by untapping his lands. I don't care about Turnabout tapping my lands, in fact, at that stage I'm probably tapped out from an earlier counterwar anyway.

[Koby]

The point is that he is tapped out, and needs to cast Turnabout to continue his combo turn by untapping his lands. I don't care about Turnabout tapping my lands, in fact, at that stage I'm probably tapped out from an earlier counterwar anyway.

Perhaps. Perhaps High Tide player is casting this at EOT to tap you out. Perhaps he has taken so long to go off that he's got more lands in play than you do, and superior quality of counterspells (like Flusterstorm). Who knows. I would bet on High Tide winning in the matchup against your deck.

[MGB]

Ok Clavio let's break down this matchup in more depth.

Here's a typical Spiral Tide list, this one piloted by Colin Chilbert at a recent tournament:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...3&iddeck=72993


Instants [24]
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
3 Cunning Wish
3 Flusterstorm
3 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide

Sorceries [15]
3 Preordain
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Time Spiral

Artifacts [3]
3 Candelabra of Tawnos

Lands [18]
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
12 Island



I'll start from the Artifacts, then move up the list to the top:

- Candelabra of Tawnos is a mana accelerant. It is not a threat that I need to answer directly, but even so, because it is the sole nonland permanent in a deck that has no other, I will probably end up blowing it up with my Powder Keg in G1 if I have spare mana and I draw Keg.

- Time Spiral is a Draw-7. Similar to Ad Nauseum in Ad Nauseam storm lists. I usually have to counter this. High Tide pilots will play this after playing High Tides and cantrips on their combo turn, or if they're desperate they will tap out without much more mana to play this, but those are more rare situations.

- Ponder is a card filtering cantrip and nothing more. I do not have to counter this under any circumstances.

- Merchant Scroll is a tutor that usually fetches a combo piece during the combo turn. I can counter this if I suspect they will be fetching something uncounterable, but most times I will let this resolve and then counter the combo piece that was fetched, OR let them resolve High Tide if they fetched that and counter further combo pieces.

- Preordain is a card filtering cantrip and nothing more. I do not have to counter this under any circumstances.

- High Tide is a combo piece that generates mana for their combo turn. It benefits me almost as much as it benefits the Spiral Tide player. Often times I will let this resolve, turning my own Islands into UU producers which then lets me do stuff like hardcast Force of Will and Misdirection during his combo turn. High Tide itself is not a threat to me as long as I counter the inevitable Time Spiral, or Cunning Wish, or Blue Suns Zenith, or Merchant Scroll for the Brain Freeze.

- Force of Will is one of the few counters I have to worry about during counterwars. But I play more counters than High Tide does, and I can also use Misdirection to back up my counters if he plays this.

- Brainstorm is a card filtering cantrip and nothing more. I do not have to counter this under any circumstances.

- Turnabout is a mana accelerant that untaps his lands in most situations to enable him to play more cantrips and to generate more mana during his combo turn. I usually don't counter this, but if I have Misdirection or Divert and he NEEDS to resolve Turnabout to continue, I will often redirect the target of this spell to me and force him to fizzle and waste his combo turn.

- Flusterstorm is one of the counters that they can use to win counterwars. It is effective vs. MUC, obviously, but also highly situational.

- Cunning Wish is a tutor that fetches combo pieces. I will let this resolve and then counter whatever he fetches, unless I suspect he is fetching Brain Freeze during combo turn or Wipe Away for Chalice and I don't have another Chalice in my hand or on the board.

- Pact of Negation is a singleton in this list to be fetched with Merchant Scroll. The same basic principle here as with Force of Will during counterwars, except that he can lose the game on his next turn if he doesn't successfully combo after casting this.

- Meditate is a draw spell that I usually counter.

- Blue Sun's Zenith is a draw spell / finisher that I have to counter.



So let's see... my only real threats that I have to counter are:

4 Time Spiral (and even if I don't counter it, I can often benefit from it during a combo turn by drawing into more Force of Will / Misdirection and win even if he resolves the Spiral)
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

Conditional counters:
4 Merchant Scroll (if he is fetching Brain Freeze during combo turn)
4 Cunning Wish (if he is fetching Brain Freeze during combo turn or fetching Wipe Away from sideboard and I don't have more than 1 Chalice in play)


And of course, while the High Tide player does have card filtering, I have more card advantage, and will often draw more of my answers than he will draw his threats during a typical game that lasts past the mid-game.

And post-board, in G2 and G3, I land Chalice and he literally can't filter his deck and can't win (needs to cast High Tide), so I can just sit back, draw cards, play Cliques, and watch him as he hopes to draw Cunning Wish, and then I'll just counter his Cunning Wish or fateseal / Clique it. And the only way he can counter Chalice @ 1 is to play one of his 4 Force of Wills.

[MGB]

Perhaps. Perhaps High Tide player is casting this at EOT to tap you out. Perhaps he has taken so long to go off that he's got more lands in play than you do, and superior quality of counterspells (like Flusterstorm). Who knows. I would bet on High Tide winning in the matchup against your deck.

If he's casting Turnabout at EOT to tap my lands, then I could redirect it to target HIM. Duh? Because the original target is me, I redirect to him. As opposed to a combo-turn Turnabout in which the original target is him. And this is really a rare situation for a high Tide player who usually needs Turnabout in his combo turn. If the game has gone that long in which he can waste Turnabout on me, then I have achieved superior card advantage and have good mana and more counters than him.

Also, out of approximately 40+ 2/3 sb matches played in the past 3 years against High Tide combo, I have lost no more than 5-6 of those matches with MUC.

[Koby]

I'm not interested to know your numbers on playing the matchup, because I don't know who is on the other side of that matchup. Can you demonstrate tournament performance with your list to back up your claims?

[MGB]

I'm not interested to know your numbers on playing the matchup, because I don't know who is on the other side of that matchup. Can you demonstrate tournament performance with your list to back up your claims?

Not any major tournament results with my current list, no. I haven' been to any larger tournament in the past 2 years.

I guess if I dont' have tournament results for a particular list, but want to discuss theory of a certain archetype, I am not allowed to post in here?

[Koby]

Posting theory is fine; but it's only good to a certain point. The deck needs to be demonstrated as competitive for this forum, or have been refined to a well tuned deck. I have my doubts about your list as being well-tuned. Many people are in disagreement with your ideas because they are not well founded with existing theory and practice for Control decks. One of the better ways to turn opinions favorable for your decklist is to demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that your list has a place in competitive Legacy.

[Countertoplol]

Someone go play the matchup in cockatrice or something.

[blablub]

Does anyone have the list of Eric Rill playing Mono Blue Talrand in the SCGinvi ? :)

[menace13]

Does anyone have the list of Eric Rill playing Mono Blue Talrand in the SCGinvi ? :)

No, But it's favored to win. 65% vs everyyyything. Or, so, I've heard.

Edit: I was off-topic. Why Keg over Ratchet Bomb? What situations would you want to see one over the other? Only can think of Jace at 4 ticks- tho it answers other Jaces, and Bk2Basics at 3-which is more common. Bomb also gets Cbalance off of you. Though the 1 turn speed difference may be what gives it the edge.

Back on off topic. I can go through a span of 15 dailies and maintain 70% with a deck. That doesn't mean the deck beats everything 70%. Lot of variables, my skill, opponent's skill, frequency and ratio of draws, Obviously there are some really lopsided match-ups where all things drawn even, they have no chance.

[Arsenal]

Also, out of approximately 40+ 2/3 sb matches played in the past 3 years against High Tide combo, I have lost no more than 5-6 of those matches with MUC.

Those numbers give you a 85% win rate versus High Tide. There have been many things said by you in the thread, but this I truly can't believe. No deck in the history of Magic has ever had a 85% win ratio versus anything.

[DragoFireheart]

Those numbers give you a 85% win rate versus High Tide. There have been many things said by you in the thread, but this I truly can't believe. No deck in the history of Magic has ever had a 85% win ratio versus anything.

Well, maybe Hulk Flash in Legacy or Caw Blade in Standard did (Jace w/ SFM/BS).

[clavio]

Those numbers give you a 85% win rate versus High Tide. There have been many things said by you in the thread, but this I truly can't believe. No deck in the history of Magic has ever had a 85% win ratio versus anything.

High Tide easily has an 85% win rate vs MGB.control