All B/R update speculation.

[Zombie]

Forgemaster is repeatable. Probably more of an engine card?

[Lemnear]

The second clause made me realize the difference between Enablers and Engines

Examples for Engines:
Survival of the Fittest, Ad Nauseam, Ill-Gotten Gains, Past in Flames, Argothian Enchantress etc.

Examples for Enablers:
Tinker, Show and Tell, Loyal Retainers, Natural Order, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Aluren etc.

I support this POV. To break it down: Engines need follow-up plays; enablers end the game

[ryO!]

i think you meant to say

To break it down: Legacy players are by FAR (and i mean FAR FAR away any others) those who complain/whine the most just for the sake of it and they tend to do it repeatedly so it can goes on over and over again on the same sterile, counterproductive,fallaciously prophetic, and pointless battles of arguments.

and i can give counstless of threads/posts about that.

the legacy meta have never been so diverse. Changing strategy/sideboard/main deck/deck should be a better waste of time.

[clavio]

Gush seems safe. It would be playable, but not broken.

[phazonmutant]

Gush seems safe. It would be playable, but not broken.

Uhhh, troll detected? Have you ever played Gush in Vintage? It's gotten restricted twice!

[Megadeus]

I would play the shit out of gush if it were UN banned

[Lemnear]

Gush seems safe. It would be playable, but not broken.

Yes, Legacy Tempo don't need only free Counters but free carddraw + mana acceleration too.

We had this already twice in this thread. Go home

[DragoFireheart]

Gush seems safe. It would be playable, but not broken.

RUG Threshold would dominate the meta with this card.

[clavio]

Uhhh, troll detected? Have you ever played Gush in Vintage? It's gotten restricted twice!

Yes. Gush wouldn't work in Legacy like it does in Vintage, Vintage is a totally different format. Vintage can't even handle thirst for knowledge. Also, Gush got unrestricted twice.

RUG Threshold would dominate the meta with this card.

Probably

[menace13]

Yes. Gush wouldn't work in Legacy like it does in Vintage, Vintage is a totally different format. Vintage can't even handle thirst for knowledge. Also, Gush got unrestricted twice.



Probably

Or just give Doomsday decks a free Ideas Unbound. Also, Tre sh would no longer worry about running out of 1 for 1 trades. People like to think the card is weak without Fastbond. It also adds nothing to the format. It goes in Blue tempo decks, and Doomsday- what I can think of off the top of my head. It's also not fun to play against when your opp just goes from 2 cards to 5. Yes, he did take back land drops, but his deck functions on 1 or 2 anyway. And Brainstorm takes those lands back and trades them in.

[Lemnear]

The difference is that Legacy has no Fastbond but Tempo is an archetype unlike in Vintage because of the Moxen. Therefore the effect being free in addition to the "mana acceleration" (no landdrop possible in your turn? Gush, Return 2 Islands, replay one, have 3 mana available) is even stronger than in Vintage and would wreck complete havoc if legal.

Edit: flood mana, gush, Brainstorm, put 2 Lands back, Play and crack fetchland is disgusting ... Even or my taste


T4K's Restriction wasn't because of it's own strength but being simply a playset among FoW in the Time-Key-Control Decks of it's time, filtering for Time Vault + Voltaic Key while Get'n rid of your Tinkerbot. The effect wasn't broken but the Deck was undoubtful strong. The only actions the DCI can take for Vintage are restrictions so they took the only Card played as a 3/4-off besides FoW and restricted it. This was even in the official announcement.

Gush was restricted twice because the DCI was too stupid to realize the card which dominated the format since Meandeck Gifts wasn't Gifts, Gush or Flash but Merchant Scroll. Instead of simply restricting Scroll and let the format breathe they restricted Ponder, Brainstorm, Scroll, Gush, Flash and Gifts instead. This ended in T4K being the last playable Engine aside Intuition/AK (mana intense, slow, vulnerable to graveyard hate) which got T4K chopped too

[DragoFireheart]

Edit: flood mana, gush, Brainstorm, put 2 Lands back, Play and crack fetchland is disgusting ... Even or my taste

Imagine a RUG deck stifling your first land, dropping a Goose, wasting your second land on their 2nd turn, and then casting Gush on their 4th turn and shuffling away the excess lands with brainstorm all while having FoW/Daze waiting for you.

Stupid.

[rufus]

In many combo decks that go off around turn 3 and use islands, Gush does double duty as card draw and acceleration, and can protect your lands.

[DragoFireheart]

In many combo decks that go off around turn 3 and use islands, Gush does double duty as card draw and acceleration, and can protect your lands.

Oh yeah, High Tide players would LOVE Gush. They would gush about it if they thought the card would be made legal.

Stupid. Why are we discussing unbanning Gush?

[clavio]

Edit: flood mana, gush, Brainstorm, put 2 Lands back, Play and crack fetchland is disgusting ... Even or my taste

Ok, it's too good in tempo decks. I just really want to play it again, I loved it in old extended. Damn.

Oh yeah, High Tide players would LOVE Gush. They would gush about it if they thought the card would be made legal.

Returning 2 Islands to your hands is not what high tide is looking to do. Even if it was a reliable setup spell, it would be terrible once you were going off.

[joemauer]

Gush seems safe. It would be playable, but not broken.

There are a few people who believe Brainstorm should be banned in Legacy, but you think blue needs more card drawing in Legacy? Interesting.

[DragoFireheart]

Speaking of Brainstorm being banned...

I would argue that Brainstorm might be better than Ancestral Recall.

[Lemnear]

Speaking of Brainstorm being banned...

I would argue that Brainstorm might be better than Ancestral Recall.

Why in gods name are we back to Brainstorm and in addition, paired with such nonsene? The only moment I can come up with that being true is having your Oath Target or Tinkerbot in hand ... ups ... both are banned in Legacy anyways

[DragoFireheart]

Why in gods name are we back to Brainstorm and in addition, paired with such nonsene? The only moment I can come up with that being true is having your Oath Target or Tinkerbot in hand ... ups ... both are banned in Legacy anyways

1. Brainstorm, along with fetchlands, can imitate the same card quality you would get with recall. You get to choose the best of same card pool Recall would give you minus the two worst cards you put back. You end up with less cards with Brainstorm but will have nearly the same card quality as Recall.

2. You can protect critical cards from discard spells. Recall can not do this.

3. Like you said, you can put back Oath/Tinker targets back into the library. While it is not played as much as it used to, this can help make Natural Order better.

4. Brainstorm enables Miracles and can help get them out of your hand. Recall can not do this. Brainstorm also enables other cards that depend on the top card of the library, such as Delver of Secrets and Counterbalance.


There's a reason Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage.

[Lemnear]

There's a reason Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage.

because of the same reason they restricted Ponder and banned Ponder and Preordain in Modern: They can grab Combo pieces