I've found the 2nd Ooze unnecessary, maybe a 2nd Thragtusk? Also I think 4 Hymns would be a bit too much. A well placed Therapy would usually make it close to dead :)Originally Posted by Ecstatic_Conch
I think you would also want to fit in at least 1 Diabolic Intent. You kind of lack a sac outlet. Of course, worse comes to worst you can Abrupt Decay your own Explorer, but really there are a lot better ways to use that card. :)
I feel like i wanna try to scapewish deck for a change, I did play it before but grow tired of it quickly because of this combo meta here. (especially many renimate players)
But feels like latley more fair decks has been present so I want to give this a shot
few questions:
I've read many times that you needed that deed for the win but didnt draw it. So many times I've seen that, yet most lists only run 3 pernicious deed. Why?
2x pithing needle in sb, against what?
Why no pulverize in SB anymore? I loved that card
Appreciate answers!
The list in my sig is slightly out of date -- I'll fix that this morning. The Needles -were- there as a hedge vs Sneak/Show and vs Liliana of the Veil -- because if you're losing to Jund, it's because of that skank. In practice, though, the Needles were very subpar and they were pretty quickly removed. Those two slots are currently (back to) the 3rd REB and a Collective Voyage as a wish bullet, to turn your Burning Wishes into ramp spells when needed.
The issue with the 4th Deed is that sometimes, you'll just hate life for playing it. Most hands are better with a Deed in them. However, sometimes you'll play vs decks where the Deed is just completely irrelevant, and you'll be annoyed. High Tide or Sneak are good examples of this. Even against things like Jund or Esperblade, where you want Deed, you never want 4, because you shouldn't have to sweep that many times. Sometimes you don't hit one and you die because of it -- I'll grant you that. But I'm okay with accepting that sacrifice because -not- playing the 4th Deed improves a lot of other games where you might have lost had that 4th Deed-slot not been whatever you would cut for the Deed.
Pulverize is out of my sideboard because nobody in my area is playing MUD anymore, so it just isn't necessary. That's a personal-meta thing -- if you've still got decks in your meta that Pulverize is good vs, then by all means run it. It's just not necessary in my meta atm.
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Latest Scapewish testing: I really want to find room for a 2nd Primal Hunter. Just not sure where to make that slot right now =/ Also, Collective Voyage continues to impress. I may be specifically looking for situations where it's good too much, but basically, Scapewish has one slight chink in its armor, where it can die to its own inconsistencies -- this is the "heavy Burning Wish" draw -- you don't get many ramp dudes, or a Top, or anything. You just get stally stuff like Huntmasters or Thrags that you may or may not be able to cast, you get a few lands, maybe a Deed, and then a Burning Wish or three. Collective Voyage in the board helps solve this draw, and makes the deck actually horrifyingly consistent. Just remember the Golden Rule of Scapewish: if it doesn't have green mana, don't keep it. The sole exception is basic nonforest + Top, which is debatable as a keep depending on the matchup.
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Edit for value:
Upon examining Scapewish carefully, I can't find any slot maindeck that I am unhappy enough with to cut it for the 2nd Garruk. Huntmaster is ever so slightly worse in the metagame overall right now, but when you run into an unprepared opponent, he just runs the game by himself -- and these things tend to go in cycles, so he'll be "better" again before too long.
Now, the question is, should I stick with the 1-of Garruk with no way to tutor it, or would I be better served by making that slot into another GSZ option? I've attempted both the 4th Top and the 4th Deed in the past and actually been disappointed by both of them, so I think that isn't the way I want to go.
Question the second: Ruination in the sideboard, or might Plow Under be better? Alternatively: we can just accept that we're kold to land-based strategies (hi, Glacial Chasm. I see you lurking there), and move on with our lives. As I examined the list while updating it for my sig, it occurred to me that Ruination has been largely subpar overall. Even vs 12post, it doesn't seem like it happens that often -- and even when I'm specifically going as deep on basics as I can, Ruination is usually killing at least a couple of my lands too, which hurts. Furthermore, I don't like that Ruination is so narrow. It's not like Tsunami which is a good general purpose wish at any stage of the game vs blue.dec. Sure, you might nab a few of their Tundras -- but they'll probably nab a few of your Taigas too, and that sucks. So, I'm currently considering Plow Under for that slot, because that's a good option vs literally anyone. It at the very least delays any problematic utility lands, and it seems like it should be a gigantic kick in the nuts for 12post, although it doesn't just straight up kill them like Ruination does.
Thoughts?
I couldn't find anything better than plow under to do what you're intending, but will taking out two lands really beat those decks?
Edit:
Also: While I love GPH, I'm not sure if adding yet another high-cost card to this deck is a good idea. As you've seen sometimes this deck just dies to its own manabase.
3rd: I would love to have a fourth top in the deck! First turn top off of a basic land is the best 1st turn play we can make. However I'm still trying to learn the deck so I won't be making any changes until I'm more comfortable with it.
I haven't played too many games against the little green men, but of those it was a pretty even split (maybe slightly in my favor?): with the recent SCG 1st place finish, what are people's thoughts on strategies pre- and post- board against Goblins? One of the guys I played against mentioned thragtusk recursion is pretty bad for them...and obviously board sweepers, but I feel like goblins can recover even from that (recruiter, matron, kiki-jiki, etc).
I dont think the last SCG open will effect the meta at all. But Goblins is usually pretty easy, although I have lost to them in the past. Its all about the sweepers and haymakers. We cant do too much to stop ringleaders card advantage proactively. They will always draw one, or a matron, even if we rip their hand apart. Remove their important goblins like krenko or siege gang, but for the most part, just make sure you kill the lords that give them haste. Warchief is scary. He enables their explosive plays where they dump their hand and then swing with it in the same turn.
One big thing to keep in mind. They can use 2 basics often better than you can so be very careful setting off explorers. Only do it when their hand is clear of matrons and ringleaders.
If your playing scapewish, you can combo-race them and wish for pyroclasm if needed.
Punishing fire, its a grind fest, but one you should win eventually. Bait out their wastelands, because you will need your groves.
Rector, they straight up lose to moat unless they are splashing gree/white (which is pretty rare).
GB, you have the most room sweepers maindeck (damnation+deed) and room for EPlagues in your SB.
BUG, goblins might actually be a rougher matchup but I dont know to be honest.
Which version of the deck are you talking about?
I just played against goblins on Saturday. boarded in the fair package (sorin, elpseth, batterskull) and a thoughtsieze, humility. I rectored in the humility then dropped the batterskull. and that was game.
Sorry, forgot to mention I run GB at the moment.
Not entirely true. You need a clock otherwise if they land a Siege-Gang Commander you run a risk of getting pinged to death. We're definitely favored once a Moat comes down, but they can get there.
I haven't run GB in a long time, but seems like Hornet Queen could be helpful, especially if you can recur it. Problem is living long enough to get it down.
The winner of yesterday's SCG open splashed both green and white.
He has 2 Krosan Grips in his 75 and no way to filter for them. Killing someone, even from 10 life, with just a siege gang is pretty hard. All we have to do is remove the commander. Goblins is a matchup we should be pretty happy to have with this deck.
With GB in particular you should have 6 Deeds/damnations in your 75 and maybe an engineered plague in there too.
Agreed. Don't get too cocky, because they can definitely blow you out -- but it's a favorable matchup overall. I'd estimate around 60/40--65-35 range. From the Rector version, they're also HORRIFIED of Baneslayer. It's actually kind of funny. Take that, Piledriver, you tool. They can usually Incinerator her away if they have one, but if they don't, she'll carry the game on her wings.
Basically,the way that we lose to goblins involves something like the following sequence:
t1 Lackey -> t2 Stingscourger/Incinerator on our Explorer, swing with Lackey, drop something arbitrarily stupid (SGC, Krenko, Ringleader, Warchief, etc).
However, most Goblins pilots won't see or won't use this line. They'll assume that it's better to hold their removal for the deck's bombs rather than try to get in underneath us. Just watch out for that line and you should be okay. Any hand with a castable Explorer is a snapkeep in the matchup -- ideally you want Explorer, a Therapy, and a sweeper.
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@Evan -- I'm assuming you're going to Mythic this weekend. Are you qualified yet, or do you need to do well at this one to make it?
I'm actually working on the primer again. HoneyT -- did you manage to day 2 Denver? I have no data from Denver at all to add to the historical section. I know I missed Day 2 by one round at both GP Indy and GP Atlanta, but I don't have anything about Denver or any of the European legacy GPs. Update me, people.
Also, I need updated, current lists for the following archetypes:
G/B (pref. Qweerios or HoneyT, as they had the best lists for straight G/B)
GBW - Rock and/or Pod, if anyone is still playing those versions. If I don't hear back from anyone, I'll move them to anecdotal
BUG - Tao, is the link in your sig for Jace Fit updated? Also, Viridia, post your latest, please.
Omniscience - if the Europeans are still playing this, I need someone to get me a list.
PFire - HoneyT, if you have any changes/updates to make to your list, post them. Otherwise I'll use your list from SCG.
I've got Rector, Scapewish, and I'll probably throw in a Deadeye list, too. I've come to the conclusion that Deadeye is basically roughly the same as Rector or slightly worse, and pretty much abandoned it since it didn't do what I wanted it to do (beat combo easily). But, I think it's probably still worth putting a list up for it.
Also, if anyone of ye who provide me lists want to take the time out to write a blurb about your card selection choices, how the list plays, pitfalls to avoid, matchup data, and so forth, that would be fantastic and would save me a ton of time on getting this thing finally finished. I can do it myself if I have to, but it'll take me a while and I can't promise 100% correct answers due to my lack of experience with every subarchetype.
I'll update my Sig with my latest Jace list aswel as the Biomancer list i've been playing around with lately.
Personally i haven't been doing anything on the 4-color Omniscience list anymore, so i can't help you there :)
Edit:
Biomancer: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Lb3NZRFE#gid=0
Jace: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Lb3NZRFE#gid=0
If I show up but dont top 8, Ill be at 23 points. I NEED another top 8.
I kind of want to play a punishing fire list but I might just stick to my guns and play scapeshift because I haven't had much time to test punishing fire yet. It has seemed really strong so far though.
Below is the list I have been using and liking, theres one slot Im unsure about and will change around meta dependent.
23 Lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
2 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Scavenging Ooze // Acidic Slime // Garruk, Primal hunter #2 // Abrupt Decay #4 // Maelstrom pulse #2
SB:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Acidic Slime - Mostly here so I dont autolose to Glacial Chasm
Note, there's no carpet of flowers, and theres 2 reasons for this. 1: No one plays UWx control at Mythic for some reason. 2: I have more lands/ramp-dudes maindeck that most lists so boarding out 1-3 exploreres doesnt really hurt.
My maindeck beats every fair deck, so my SB its meant for combo. Against just about any combo deck, I bring in 14 cards.
If I run scapewish, I think Ill run the same list I ran at mythic just -1 Wood elves, -1 Huntmaster or thrag, +2 Abrupt decay. And my SB would go back to 3 REB, 3 Mindbreak trap. Whether or not I run pulverize/ruination will probably depend on if anyones playing MUD and if you are loaning out Turbo eldrazi or not haha!
TheArchitect, what do you feel the punishing fire build adds that scapewish doesn't?
@Evan, I'll do what I can for you. Like if we get paired up in the last round or something, I'll scoop you in. I qualified a longass time ago. I would recommend sticking with Scapewish -- in fact, I'm seriously considering running it myself. I think that there's going to be a heavy Esperblade backlash against the superfluity of combo decks that we've seen up there lately. Alternatively, I might build RIP Miracles and just troll everyone. I actually wanted to play BUGStill, but I already promised Steve that I was going to let him use it like a month ago :| 12post will not be in attendance from my car, so you don't need to worry about it on my end.
@Viridia -- Thanks! I seriously doubt that I'll have the primer finished by the time you get back from Strasbourg, so hopefully we'll be able to add a couple of Day 2's to our history :P
Thats the question I have been asking myself. I think the answer is consistency. The land base is much better, and you have more real SB cards to bring in, as well as MD target removal to deal with any kind of threat or hate. With punishing fire you give up the raw power of being able to turn 3 people while they scupt their hand or cast goyfs. And you give up the ability to win a game where you have only lands, zero cards in hand, and low life while your opponent is at 30 and has a jace, bskull, and etc.
I am also not sure which deck is better against combo. I imagine p-fire is because of its real SB cards. But being able to turn wishes into IB, thoughtseize, slaughtergames, pyroclasm or even a scapeshift is really valuable.
Mythic is full of TES, S&T, and then like 30 unique decks. There's usually only 1 guy representing RUG and esper in the room and the rest is stuff like MUD, pox, painter stone, burn, fish, BUG Still, 4c Deathrite, etc. So its a strange meta. I have to be able to not always lose to combo decks, and not fold to random rogue decks like 12 post or MUD.
Thanks Kevin, I would do the same for you if you needed it. I think you are right about scapeshift. I should just stick to what I know does well there. Im glad to hear there will be more UW decks and less eldrazi! Once this years round of invitationals runs up, or if I go to a Jupiter I think Ill start running other stuff (GB, punishing fire, etc).
I think that the PFire build vs ScapeWish comes down to something very simple: sideboard. PFire is absolutely able to have "real cards" in its sideboard to answer combo. The tradeoff is in flexibility. There are, very few situations that Scapewish can get into that it cannot subsequently get out of. It weakens its combo matchup a bit to accomplish this, though.
I think that both versions are equally capable of shredding fair decks. Punishing Fire rips up board states and ensures that nothing sticks other than hexproof, and is effective at fighting 'walkers. Scapewish just kills people if they don't have sufficient interaction because it drops must-answer bombs all day. The real question, I suspect, is whether one is willing to trade off added flexibility and the presence of a legitimate combo kill of your own, in order to better fight combo opponents.
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