Sigil of the Empty Throne was added to combat against Surgical Extraction. I ran into a few games where T1 I got my Helm or RIP discarded / extracted and it was an auto loose. After having Sigil of the Empty Throne (or any other win condition really) I have lost 1 out of 5 or so games in which that happened (it is rare because of RIP.)Originally Posted by Mortox
I chose Sigil as the additional win con because I was familiar with it's power and I already owned it online. I like it because it can make a wall of blockers when you can't find that Solitary Confinement. I have won only a handful of games with it, but it has brought on many concessions, and stalled the game in others to win with Helm.
Adding a Green creature:
I have considered this, but never tested it. Here is a list of the ones I have considered.
Wall of Blossoms - Extra Draw now, and a good blocker.
Thrun, the Last Troll Uncounterable, and a control hoser.
Progenitus - Premium Beatz
Gorilla Titan - With RIP it is an 8/8 Trampler
Adding a Creature all of it's abilities including shuffles (vs. Imperial Painter)
I have played lists with Progenitus before, but never tested it in this particular one. One decent synergy with Progenitus is its place in library ability is a replacement effect and you can choose that over RIP. Additionally, you can discard it to Solitary Confinement to put it in your library to GSZ it out. I think it may also cause a draw on MTGO vs Painted Stone (not sure). The bad it's a terrible top deck early, and there is a good chance you will draw it.
I have not tested 2 Helms, but I do board (1) them out from time-to-time. Again it's MU dependant. I have won many games with someone committing all of their resources to stopping our engine just to surprise helm them. Cutting 1 will reduce those games by a 1/3rd. Not saying it's off the table, but we should understand what the goal is before we just see what happens when we cut it.
@Just Me - It is my underlying philosophy that is the meta is predictable than we should be able to tailor an enchantress to that meta to gain an edge. Granted some better than others, but there a lot of tools not used in traditional lists because they are symmetrical (Root Maze come to mind) but it may work in the right list. Now granted there are times when you should just put enchantress down, but if it what you enjoy, and you like a challenge then why not tinker & test?
The core issue (as I see it) with Enchantress is something that cannot really be tinkered with. It would require some new cards for the archetype.
The core issue being speed. In a strong game/opening, our engine usually is dropped on turn 2, revs the engine turn 3 and becomes dominating on turn 4 (with a RIP + Helm FTW, a lock or other overwhelming advantage).
That same turn 2 we invest in our engine, you could be dead against a host of options (Tin Fin, Belcher, Storm variations, Show and Tell variations and even Reanimator can semi-lock you with Iona). So basically, our fundamental turn is too slow. Also, against Jund (or any deck with both discard and Liliana), on turn 2 your stong opener will be ripped apart and we're left topdecking (hopefully with a Mirri's Guile to have some options). (keep in mind that in the Netherlands, the meta has an awful lot of combo-players and a lot of decks revolving around discard and counters (the Thoughtseize/FOW decks in various iterations, or half of that, either the U of the B)).
This can be solved in two ways;
1) get faster (what your deck is doing admirably, also thanks to RIP and our own option to a fast combo-win now, com[pared to traditional 'Solitaire')
2) slow the game down (more the gameplan of Solitaire, with Moat, Confinement, Elephant Grass and maybe Rootmaze, Surpression Field,...)
These are not necassarily mutually exclusive in a deck.
Thing is, I don't know how to approach the issue of the fundamental turn. I do know that I really like the RIP-Helm combo because the GY hate is nice to have and the kill is fairly resilient and direct. I will try some Abundant Growths in my next version. Maybe an unbanned Earthcraft could inspire a new direction for the deck (although I suspect that it might be a better deck, it will be better against the same decks we're good against already).
And I will play the first Enlighted Tutor over the second Helm in that deck any day since it's more flexibilty and the additional draws it has (the deck) compensate easily. Mystical Tutor is banned for a reason and U deck couldn't abuse it as much as we can Enlighted Tutor (in terms of speed into actually getting in hand. Quality of targets is up for discussion).
Yes, I'm a bit down on my favorite deck right now.
@Freggle
Thanks for the suggestions regarding my comments.
I may try Thrun at some point as I feel the Ux control games can be very frustrating when the opponent knows what they're doing and makes sure to counter your draw-engine spells; additionally some of these lists (Miracles?) also plays the RiP/Helm combo so if you land the RiP they can just let it resolve and next turn helm/win, or just sit on their counters until they draw their helm. Some of the most frustrating games of my life getting all my Argothians, Presences' and GSZ's countered turn after turn until I'm sitting on a couple Confinements and Helms or something like that... I mean I could try City of Solitude to add a bit of depth but I'm not entirely sure if it's the best route.
@Just me
I think you're exactly right regarding the speed of the deck, I mean when it runs properly it's rather predictable, T1 land enchantment (sometimes Mirri's,) T2 Enchantress, then proceed to dump hand over the next few turns until combo/lockout is assembled.
It presents a bit of a tempo problem I feel, when you're against a deck where one of your enchantments might be a better play over getting your engine online, but without knowing for sure it can be a gamble either way. I guess I tend to play somewhat greedy which leaves me exposed to losses I might otherwise avoid; situations like where my unknown opponent has a Polluted Delta on board, they're on the draw, they could easily be combo (Reanimate/Tin Fins/ANT, etc) or just a random Ux deck, and on my T2 I'm faced with playing out an Enchantress, or dropping a Rest in Peace, this has come up quite a bit, and typically against an unknown I'll just play the Enchantress. Many times they proceed to go off the following turn and of course end up requiring their graveyard to do so. If I played the RiP I may have won/stayed in the game, but if I was incorrect in guessing their deck it would have set me back quite a bit in terms of tempo/draw.
In terms of slowing the game down, I feel our options here are also slow, at best T2, and against the decks we want to slow down, that's sometimes too late. Bringing in a playset of Leyline of Sanctity against appropriate decks can help but typically you're facing off against 3-4x Chain of Vapor and/or Abrupt Decays as well.
As you said, Enlightened Tutor might be a good idea here, it sort of answers a couple of my complaints from a previous post above (regarding drawing too many Helms on occasion running it as a 3-of) and could help fill the tutor role of Sterling Grove as well. I'll try fitting 2 Enlightened into my list (one in place of a Helm, not sure where I'll get the second free spot yet) and see how it runs.
This is very true. The Enchantress deck I was working on prior to this here aimed to both accelerate and disrupt at the same time.
The goal was simple disrupt turn your opponents lands into island, and gain copious amounts of advantage off of Carpet of Flowers and land a Choke. The engine was surprisingly effective. I tabled at the time because playing the deck was stressful you would always be on the verge of killing yourself, and then you had the dis-synergy with Emrakul putting you island enchants in your own graveyard.
I wonder if the two could be merged. Instead of winning with a Defense of the Heart you could switch to Helm. You could free up slots because the deck already ran graveyard hate (at the time Wheel of Sun and Moon) to be even more disruptive.
Resolving a Liliana is not easy when all of your lands are Islands.
As for the MU's you mentioned all of them use artifact mana to combo (usually) ...so why haven't we tested Chalice of the Void @ 0? ...or really explored Root Maze or both?
Of all the MU's listed I feel strongest against S&T because our 75 should have 4 Oblivion Rings, and I main (2) Karakas.
I think your assessment is right, but there is no rule that you have to play your enchantress first. If you hose your opponent well enough you won't care.
G1 - Blind your right that is how it goes, but I do tend to play my games 2 & 3 differently. ...and that is why I just keep the main the purest enchantress list I can because blind that is the line I will take.
City of Solitude on paper looks good, but plays horribly. If you want to resolve an enchantress play a 4th GSZ or an Venduran becuase it will affect the game immediately when it resolves. Strangely Ground Seal is also a good call. The independent draw trigger will pressure their counter magic (your spells will out number theirs.) ...and shut of Snapcaster Mage and Academy Ruins if they are run.
Ok so I've been running into A LOT of OmniShow/Dream Hall decks lately during play testing.
I feel like we're pretty soft to it, the most obvious answers we have (in most decks) are O-Ring and Seal of Primordium, unfortunately they aren't actually answers since the OmniShow player will just Cunning Wish for a Trickbind and stifle the effect of either, proceeding to win via storm or Emrakul.
I was thinking something like Rule of Law (more synergistic, but more prohibitive to us) or Trinisphere (less synergistic, but we can more easily go over-the-top of the effect with our mana production) could be added to slow them down; neither can be removed by the opponent the turn they enter play (when brought in off Show & Tell obv.) essentially buying us time to find/cast an O-ring or Primordium on the subsequent turn. Realistically either option is just a bandaid fix though, since the OmniShow player is bound to have some bounce effect, it will just take them an extra turn or two to seal the deal, but it might be enough time for us to find a more permanent answer.
Anyone have any experience playing GW Enchantress vs OmniShow/Dream Halls? Any better solutions besides those that I mentioned?
I have run into them too, and this current build is not favorable, but it is also not a auto scoop. The trick is to win faster than them. So our ramp can be good or additional helms (you can deck them before they can petals for their answers if you have mana open have Rest in Peace in play and drop in helm off of S&T)
The next best thing is to slow them down, or answer their wins. Oblivion Ring is not great but decent.
Here is a list of cards I would put in the test queue:
Choke
Nevermore
Root Maze
Sigarda, Host of Herons <--- GSZ for Emrakul & win faster. This can also be good for control, and Jund
After that I might have some more to test.
I went 3-1 in tonight's Legacy daily 4-17-2013
Round 1: Land Destruction / Burn (2-0)
It was basically a bye. Sorry man.
Round 2: Imperial Painter (2-0)
I finally beat this deck. Today I was the lucky one.
Round 3: Miracles (1-2)
Game 1 Counterbalance and force was nasty to me.
Game 2 I took very early
Game 3 Just wasn't the right hand. I had a lot of business, but no way to stick it. So much counter magic. I went deep on using helm to hit a threat. Hit Venser, and Ossarman Karakased it back to his hand. ...and that was the beginning of the end.
Round 4 Counter balanace Jund?
Sorry I don't know my guilds but it was BRUG I think.
G1 was Enchantress effect overload through Counter Balance. Stuck a Solitary and got the concession.
G2 An early helm kill through Counter Balance.
In the interest of full disclosure I did have a 0-2 drop (well technically 0-3 kick off forgot to drop) a few days ago. Like any deck the cards were not in my favor, and I was mulling like a mad man.
Thanks for the suggestions Freggle, I did consider the Helm idea the other day when I had a RiP in play and they played the Show & Tell, unfortunately I didn't have any mana open (I could have, I played some inconsequential spell on my turn though, lesson learned.)
Although even that isn't a sure answer as the deck always seems to have the Cunning Wish in hand for that faithful Trickbind - honestly in my ~20+ games against Omni they seem to have that Wish in hand every single time. Bad luck on my part I guess.
Unrelated, but has The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale ever been considered in GW Enchantress (in a spell slot, not a land slot)? The effect seems fairly one sided since we only run 4 creatures and have near-limitless mana in the later game, and it's unconditional payment on the opponents side, unlike something like Elephant Grass where they can just opt to not pay for their utility creatures (DRS, Bob, etc.) Plus Tabernacle can be enchanted with Abundant Growth which could be seen as an added bonus in the non-wasteland matchups. I feel like it's a strong card in the aggro and control matches (lingering souls, snapcasters, etc) and only really weak in the combo matchups and even then may have some application from time to time. Anyone ever try this?
the Freggle Enchantress (with Abundant Growth) could SB Angel of Despair against Show and Tell. It pretty much kills anything the throw into play and it's a 5/5 threat straight up. And with the Abundant Growths + Utopia Sprawl it's not all that hard to actually cast if the situation should ever arise.
I know it doesn't work with the deck (no enchantment), but if Goblins use this trick, then so can Enchantress. It just a matter of 'do you feel lucky' I think :)
In some ways I like this plan, but in others I do not. Oblivion Ring is the most common card side boarded in when you just do not know what kind of hate you will be facing. In many matches Angel of Despair can be used for the same function, but there is one where it can not. ...that MU is vs. Counterbalance. Oblivion Ring commonly takes that card out for me. With most of the time your CMC1 being cut off not many if any of the mana enchantments are going to resolve making Serra's Sanctum not that reliable to resolve an Angel of Despair.
In the board you might be able to swap 1-2 Oblivion Ring for Angel, but I wouldn't go much if any more than that.
I have played 3 matches against Omnitell on Sunday (a small sample size I know.) and went 2-1.
The first MU I could have won game 1, but I had a misplay. My opponent comboed off, and attacked with Emrakul leaving me with 2 enchantress effects, 1 forest and 5 life. ...but he left out a Dream Halls. I cast Enchantments through 4-5 hard counters with Dreamhalls and fill-up my hand in search of the combo kill or a Confinement to stick. I make the mistake of removing a green enchantment to cast an Argothian. This play does not net me positive cards and I loose as a result of not having (2) shared colored enchantments in hand and no mana available.
Game (2) I board improperly taking out Solitary Confinement, and loose to the ants kill.
Matche 2 (2) I combo both games before Show and Tell.
Match 3 I combo before Show and Tell is assembled. Game 2 - My opponent plays Show and Tell I have Oblivion Ring & it works I untap for the Helm kill.
I think the proper way to board for this match-up is -4 Abundant Growth +4 Oblivion Ring
After Freggle's suggestion I figured I would post here too, considering this thread is all about RIP + Helm Enchantress. After my first place finish with my list at PAX East this year I decided to run the list at the NELC Tournament at Jupiter Games in Vestal NY AKA Duel for Duals. I ended up with a top 8 finish out of 90 some-odd entrants and I wrote a tournament report in the Solitaire forum as well as in the Tournament report section of the forums which can be seen here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...915#post720915
Currently, I feel my list is very tight and very versatile. I don't think we need Helm in multiples. It shouldn't serve as the main win con IMO. We have so much search and so much draw I don't feel more that 1 is necessary. If they counter it or destroy it I have 2 other win cons. 1 of which is uncounterable and with karakas main lets you take infinite turns if necessary. Has anyone here tested a living wish board? or possibly crop rotation and cards like tabernacle? If you are playing blue have any of you played pendrell mists. Again I feel like these are sub par but I'm curious to see if anyone has tested them.
I finally have acquired this deck in paper and here is my build. I'm about to play in a Legacy tournament this week in Toronto and I'm excited to experience the a new meta. I will do a mini-report with results soon. Tell me what you guys think?
The Main Board
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Abundant Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
1 Seal of Primordium
4 Rest in Peace
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Solitary Confinement
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Green Sun's Zenith
8 Forest
1 Savannah
2 Karakas
3 Serra's Sanctum
3 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard:
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Pithing Needle
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Leyline of Sanctity
I took a little breather from MTG. Tropotos nice report! I'll give your list a few goes and see how it fits me.
A friend of mine sent me this link today. Looks like xLeitix went 3-1 with the Helm list. If you read this good finish, and I'd like to know what you think the weak slots are.
SovietOlga how did your tournament go? Swapping Emrakul with Sigil and a land for o ring seems reasonable it will just add (over many matches) more variance to the deck. Looks pretty good!
Seeing more Enchantress online as of late and I like it :)
When I can figure out how to do this better I'll replace it.
So lately I have been play testing a lot, and I made some modifications to the list:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Abundant Growth
1 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Pressence
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 Solitary Confinement
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
11 Forest
1 Savannah
3 Serra's Sanctum
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Blind Obedience
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Elephant Grass
Main Changes:
-1 Helm
-1 Karakas
+1 Savannah
+1 Forest
Sideboard Changes:
-3 Tormod’s Crypt
+3 Surgical Extraction
I dropped a Helm for the list over a month ago and replaced it with a foil basic forest so I can track if I would rather have the Helm or the forest in each game. Almost every game I wanted the forest, so the change stays. If there are any questions let me know.
I haven’t been in the dailyies for quite some time due to a lot of life events, but I look to join them again soon. When I do I will post results. These conclusions are based on roughly 50 matches in MTGO tournament practice when I can.
I have read through this entire thread and here are my thoughts:
1) I feel the correct numbers on RIP combo are 4 rest in peace, 2 energy field, 2 helm of obedience. it is consistant and rest in peace can buy you plenty of time ealry game vs important cards that need to be dealt with such as tarmogoyf, knight of the reliquary, nimble mongoose, and deathrite shaman.
2) please stop taking out sterling grove. first off, 4 maindeck is necessary vs. abrupt decay. and it blanks krosan grips out of their sideboard. protection for your energy field and rest in peace is also essential since a single abrup decay can sink both pieces. at least with grove in play they have to point the decay at it first before messing with something more important. plus you have the option to leave a mana open to sack in response to go get another one which basically means you protect your combo while also blanking abrupt decay. this is the card u/w miracles could only dream of having to protect their combo pieces but it could not afford the slots. enchantress is the perfect home for this combo since grove protects it so well. play all 4 copies of sterling grove.
also, the tutor effect is not card disadvantage because sterling grove is not meant to be played as a 3 mana tutor. but while setting up to stall the board, you tutor for a key piece whether it be field or rip while having the other in play and when the opponent sees this they will more than likely scoop. and do this only if at all necessary which isn't most of the time since you can draw into stuff or use enlightened tutor instead. sterling grove is too good to cut. play all 4.
3) while i'm on the subject of card disadvantage, enlightened tutor is not card disadvantage. technically it is but it's not. it is all about how you play the card. because what you're supposed to do with it is tutor for the rest in peace or helm when the path is clear to kill them. in my list i do not run a ton of bullets so i use tutor as a way to dig for a sideboard option quickly or to win the game. this is not used to tutor up rendundant things that are not necessary. use it to find helm or rest in peace or energy field and when it allows you to solidify the game and/or win. same thing applies to sterling grove. do not use these cards carelessly or prematurely otherwise it will very much become card disadvantage.
4) i am running 4x elephant grass. i too am a little concerned that this card may not be good enough anymore against the top contenders in the format. if they have a big creature they pay 2 and attack and you die. if they have a few creatures they know you won't block 99% of the time so it doesn't really matter that they aren't playing spells. of all the suggestions on this thread i believe only one person had it right. Kirtar's Desire is the best suggestion for an enchantress deck i have seen so far. i even took a while to consider that one guy's suggestion of playing swords to plowshares. but desire is like enchantress' form of swords to plowshares/path to exile in enchantment form. you have a turn 2 flipped delver? kirtar's desire. you have a goyf that's big and i don't have rest in peace in play? kirtar's desire. how about big creatures found in reanimator, show n' tell, and the like? true you can't stop everything....but kirtar's desire. if i replace elephant grass it will be for kirtar's desire and i will likely be playing 4. that card looks too good in dealing with the early problematic creatures that can put a significant clock on you. and if they point a qasali pridemage or abrupt decay at it, that's fine too. because you made them point their removal somewhere less important thus making them waste it, or sterling grove protects it. yet another reason why i say run all 4 sterling groves. it's also tutorable by grove and enlightened tutor which is a plus.
5) i played against discard as well. specifically shardless bug. because this deck has so much redundancy, i do not like abundant growth. so what if it draws a card? it does not accelerate your mana any. you can't turn 1 land, abundant growth. turn 2 play a 3 mana spell or whatever. all it does is turn whatever land it is enchanting into a savannah as most of the time you tap your lands for green or white except in the instances where you cast a blue spell which is where fetches and a basic island become very reliable in making this happen without having to add in things like abundant growth or wasting a utopia sprawl on blue mana.
6) solitary confinement is one of the worst cards in this deck. it's good enough to play one maybe 2 depending on how many flex spots your list has to work with. in mine i play 1 and the reason is simple. i play rest in peace so energy field is essentially the same card and it makes my opponent scoop. the decks in the format these days have ways to disrupt the early turns of an enchantress deck getting its card engine going which is why the rip/helm combo in this deck is so good. disrupt my engine, i combo you to death. disrupt my combo, i draw my deck and kill you anyway. so when the early turns have discrupted the draw engine, solitary confinement becomes a dumb card in your hand that doesn't do anything and at best will cast for a 3 mana fog for a turn. energy field does this much better even if rest in peace isn't in play. and you still get to draw cards. i do believe that solitary confinement is still a good card against enough decks and with the right set up can help ensure a win. but without the proper set up it's useless because it cannot act as a stand alone stall the game card like most other cards in this deck can. i think 1 copy is all you need because you can tutor for it if needed, it opens up more slots to play other things in the main, and the deck can rest on the shoulders of energy field for more turns than it can on solitary confinement without your draw engines up and running.
7) running 4 copies of mirri's guile is really bad. mirri's guile is a great card to smooth out your draws, but it does not net you any cards. look at top 3 pick the best one, and continue my turn. 2 copies is fine. with 2 you see them often enough and early enough to put them to good use. the other 2 spots should be used for playing 2 enlightened tutor if you aren't playing them already. and if you are, 2 more sterling grove if you are running less than 4.
8) sideboard options are very important. with the new rules changes regarding sideboarding coming in M14, we might be able to find ways to fandangle things here and there, but i am still unsure about what the best ways are to fight certain combo decks or other particular matchups that were discussed in this forum. i have no suggestions on this, however what i will say is i think it is important with enchantress to have a wide variety of effects and abilities to choose from. i will be considering carpet of flowers as i have seen that card become very insane when i watched a storm player play it against me when i was playing a heavy blue deck. i would love to drop carpet turn 1 against rug delver all day. currently i am running 0 in my sideboard, but sideboards are always subject to change.
9) i never heard of equipoise until 2 or 3 days ago, that card looks freakin' sweet!
10) i do not play karakas main even though i play 1 emrakul main. infinite turns is still something i am considering. karakas doesn't do enough vs show n' tell. it's pretty good vs. reanimator though. hard casting an emrakul, taking an extra turn, attacking for 15 and making them sacrifice 6 permanants should be more than enough to cause your opponent to scoop. if they don't it is likely that the emrakul wasn't going to win you the game anyway. to the guy who said 'why play basic plains when you can play karakas?' wasteland. that's why.
here is my current list for reference. in my testing i felt it performed very well and smoothly even through some disruption. so far i have tested vs shardless bug, merfolk, rug delver, and goblins and have won more games then i have lost. they were all mainboard games except for a few games where the shardless bug player switched from a no force of will main version to a force of will main version. i found force of will to be the strongest card against this deck if the person knows how to play force of will properly. even if i was baiting him with other spells. the other card i found to be scary as well is jace, the mind sculptor. not because of the brainstorm effect but with enough disruption early game whether by counterspells or hand hate followed up by an early jace is frightening because i currently run very few answers for a resolved jace the mind sculptor in both main and sideboard. it's not the brainstorm effect that i fear, it's the fear of jace's ultimate occuring faster than i can win the game or set up and solidify a solitary confinement type of effect. keep in mind that i have only tested mainboarded matchups so far. leyline seems like a strong answer in sideboarded matchups though.
2 Flooded Strand
6 Forest
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
1 Detention Sphere
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Energy Field
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Mirri's Guile
4 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
Sideboard:
2 City of Solitude
1 Cursed Totem
1 Detention Sphere
1 Energy Field
1 Equipoise
1 Karmic Justice
2 Krosan Grip
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Nevermore
1 Replenish
1 Rule of Law
Last edited by drocker23; 07-04-2013 at 02:55 AM.
Hey I took a break from MTG as I situated my life a bit. I'll read through this and test some stuff and let you know my thoughts.
The goal of the last builds is to reduce the overall variance of the deck, and streamline it's purpose. In doing so Blue has been removed in favor of a more stable Gw build. Energy Field lost a lot of luster when Abrupt Decay was printed, and was further compounded when Tezzeret was seen in real numbers. Player Shroud is relevant and so Solitary Confinement got the nod. (4) Rest in Peace & (2) Helm of Obedience seems correct.
Your absolutely right. I tested the card in the latest Gw build and the card makes the deck just silly. I now run 3 over 3 Abundant Growth
I have tested this card a lot in the past and found it lacking in the control and discard matchups. That is the majority of the meta. I have opted not to run it as a result of that. Have you had similar experiences?
Elephant Grass has been second string in my lists for quite some time now, and it's not missed main.
I still currently run (1) its good at fighting wasteland or waste lock, as well as everything discussed previously.
I wish this were true but it is not. Player shroud is relevant against most combo, burn, jace win, Clique lock... Energy Field is a good card but it is not better than Solitary Confinement in a 11 enchantress build deck. The Match-ups where it is not good (not many 12 post) I board them out.
Since running 4 Guiles I have reduced my mulligans by a noticeable margin. It also is always good to see since it will draw you cards for athe sweet spot. Guile with fetches and now Grove is just really really good. It is a very good very underrated card, and swings / stabilizes poor match-ups like discard.
Carpet is a good card but an accelerant. It does nothing to hinder combo. Blind Obedience is a real card, and it my go to ATM.
What is it you like about Equipose
Karakas is mainly there for Gaddock Teeg and Thalia. If it hits anything else like a summoning sick Mangara a SNT Emrakul, a hasty Grizzebrand. Even better.
If you're still out there let me know your thoughts.
Last edited by Freggle; 08-14-2013 at 10:38 AM.
Yes. Yes indeed I am still out here. I would like to start by showing a list of decks I have tested this deck against:
1. Belcher
2. Shardless BUG
3. U/W/r Miracles
4. Sneak n' Show
5. Goblins
6. Elves
7. Dredge
8. Dark Maverick
9. U/W Tempo
10. RUG Delver
11. Affinity
12. Aggro Loam
13. Esper Deathblade
14. Esper Stoneblade
1) Okay I can understand streamlining the deck some, to make it more of a combo deck I guess but I really like the prison aspect of the deck. Energy Field has been incredibly important in a lot of my matchups vs. a few decks in particular that I have tested against. These decks where Energy Field was really good was vs. Belcher, Elves, Goblins, Maverick, and all of the Stoneblade variants. I understand why you could see yourself cutting Energy Field for Solitary Confinement by cutting out blue, but I'll tell you what, Solitary Confinement has actually felt like the worse of the two cards in almost every match that I've played. Energy Field is good on its own without Rest In Peace and without a draw engine or Sterling Grove to protect it. It allows you to be able to not die to the decks that are faster than you (which is pretty much everything lol). But seriously a quick tutor for Energy Field against heavy creature decks practically wins the game without anything else in play because they generally can't do anything about it.
2) Sterling Grove is amazing......lol the tutor and the shroud abilities both have been relevant in almost every matchup. And since I name 'white' on almost every single turn 1 Utopia Sprawl, it feels really good casting this card in the early game to draw cards and makes me feel like I'm not wasting mana. However, 'white' is not always correct. There have been a few times where I named a colour and then a few turns later regretted it. I don't think 'green' is necessarily right all the time either. I think it all comes down to what you have in hand not only to cast but also to fetch for. Sometimes it looks like one colour is correct, and then sometimes its not. This may just be a downside to a card like Utopia Sprawl but I feel like it's more player error. I dunno sometimes you have to name a colour based on what you are anticipating to draw or what cards you need to play right away. But this situation only happens rarely and a lot of the time it comes back to bite me is when I have kept a mulliganed hand or a loose keep.
3) I admit sometimes Enlightened Tutor is a card I don't want to see but it has been so good at grabbing early Energy Field against the fast creature decks, and has been great at tutoring out Helm Of Obedience. With playing so many 'must answer' cards, generally by the time you are ready to cast the Enlightened Tutor, after you do so wins you the game. Plus board bullets are always worthy for keeping tutors available. I would not cut this card. However, sometimes (especially vs Shardless BUG) I wish I had access to Replenish. But only certain ones. In most other matches, Replenish would be utterly useless the way my maindeck is built.
4) Ya know, Elephant Grass is a funny card. It slows down some decks and does nothing against other decks. In my testing I have figured out that if Belcher makes more than 10 Goblins on turn 1, Elephant Grass is the only card that can buy you enough time to grab an answer like Energy Field which can buy you more time while you set up Pithing Needle, Leyline of Sanctity, or Solitary Confinement. In the Esper Deathblade and Stoneblade lists, all of their guys are black except Stoneforge Mystic, and people forget that the Batterskull token is black. They basically cannot attack you with Elephant Grass in play. But against Shardless BUG the card feels really bad. Again, against the fast creature heavy decks, it's really really good. I wish this card didn't have the cumulative upkeep, or there was something better for roughly the same mana cost......come on Theros! Please give us some good enchantments for this deck? In my testing, Elephant Grass stays. It gets boarded out vs combo matchups, countertop decks, and Shardless BUG. Everything else it seems just fine. Although, from time to time I have considered cutting Elephant Grass to 3 and adding Energy Field from 2 to 3. But again, it's mainly a timing issue thing.
5) When you say you run 1 I assume you mean you run 1 Abundant Growth. I have never been Wastelocked. There have been only a handful of times where Wasteland was ever relevant because of the basic Island, or the Island caused a mulligan, but my land base of:
6 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Serra Sanctum
...has felt very solid. Loose keeps and mulligan hands can force you into playing lands you don't necessarily want to, or causing mulligans (like hands with no basics or fetches, or a hand to heavily reliant on tapping Serra's Sanctum for 1 mana) but that's magic. Sometimes that happens. I thought about Karakas again while testing. I still would not prefer to have the Karakas. Tundra has been quite useful and also the 2nd Plains has been so much better than previously when I only had 1 Plains.
6) The only time Jace has been scary to me, or when a Planeswalker felt important in the matchup was when I was playing Shardless BUG. Mainly because their disruption is so good at putting you just enough steps behind them. Against the other Jace decks like Stoneblade, you can just laugh at a Jace because by then you should already be so far ahead because they don't have enough disruption to slow you down enough for it to matter.
7) I agree and disagree. Guile is good. Guile is underrated. The downside to Guile is you can keep a Guile hand, but that doesn't necessarily mean your handis any good. Guile can help smooth your draws and everything but sometimes a bad hand is a bad hand and should be properly assessed and mulliganed. I did read an article that said if you don't have any of these cards:
1. Argothian Enchantress
2. Enchantress's Presence
3. Mirri's Guile
4. Enlightened Tutor
....that it's an automatic mulligan. Which in my experience has turned out to pretty much be true. But I don't think Guile should be any more than 2. Sometimes I wish there were 3, but a lot of times when I'm looking for cards to board out, every time I flip past Mirri's Guile, I can't help but stop and think for a second about taking it out.....I don't generally take it out though.
8) I have considered Blind Obedience as well. I don't think I'm gonna kill anyone with extort but it seems pretty solid in the Sneak n' Show matchup. I guess it helps slow the heavy creature decks too, but they are also the type of decks who can just untap and kill you the next turn. Generally, Enchantress isn't a deck of 'if I only had 1 more turn'. It's generally a deck of 'if I only had 3 or 4 more turns' lol. I did bring in Carpet of Flowers vs. Shardless BUG and have hated it every game. I like it vs. RUG Delver but it doesn't seem to make a huge difference against blue decks not playing Daze. I am considering using these slots to put in a card that is a better answer to cards like Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Delver, and hey....I bet no one considered this card being a threat......Notion Thief! Spheres I still like but maybe Journey To Nowhere? I'm not sure.
9) What I liked about Equipoise is how it removes Teeg and Thalia away during your turn when it matters and how it blows out all of Belcher's Goblins, or all of Dredge's Zombie tokens. I didn't find it useful enough to keep it in the board though so that card is out. I did try Web of Inertia in that slot for a while. Still thinking about Web in side or main. But I think Equipoise is just out entirely. I don't think it's good enough. Too narrow. I tried very hard not to be too narrow with my sideboard. But what I figured out was that it was making it really hard to sideboard. By the way, if anyone has any sideboarding tips with this deck I would love to hear it because I have a really hard time figuring out what to take out between games.
10) I already talked about why I don't play Karakas earlier so I will just make my final points here. The maindeck feels really really solid. I honestly wouldn't change a thing unless I change Sigil and Emrakul to different win conditions. Sigil almost never gets cast and Emrakul is irrelevant almost all the time. Honestly 99% of my wins have come from RIP/Helm. But as soon as you start getting your combo pieces messed with it feels really crappy not having another win condition that you know you can eventually luck sack into. So, RIP/Helm combo is solid. Sigil and Emrakul I will call 'necessary evils'. Unfortunately they feel unnecessary almost all the time. Sigil is 5 which is great against Abrupt Decay but bad against Gaddock Teeg. Emrakul is comfortable to have because if nothing else, hard casting Emrakul is game over almost every time.
The main trouble I have with this deck is fighting through all the disruption from Shardless BUG and beating Sneak n' Show. Sneak n' Show is pretty tough when it's in the hands of someone who actually knows how to play that deck well instead of average joe playing it, then it's pretty beatable. But these two matchups almost every time I have played against them have been miserable and pretty much unwinnable. Miracles can give me some trouble if Counterbalance gets online but that's easier to fight through than the other two decks I just mentioned. Also, Aggro Loam is unwinnable. Devastating Dreams destroys this deck even if you try to hold back lands to play around it.
So here is my current sideboard. I am desperately seeking information on what my sideboard should look like as well as what to take out when bringing in cards for which matchup. I have a general idea of what and why I'm sideboarding the way I am with this deck but honestly sometimes I can be really unsure. Just one example of questions floating around in my head is 'are there any matchups where the entire RIP/Helm combo comes out and are there matchups where it's your only win condition because you took out your other win conditions, Sigil and Emrakul? Basically I wanna know what is considered proper sideboarding proticol for this deck in particular.
I already updated my land base earlier in the post. Everything else in the mainboard is exactly the same. So here is what I have in the sideboard which I am still working on and would like to get as much information, tips, and help with it as I can.
1 Aura of Silence
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 City of Solitude
2 Choke
1 Detention Sphere
1 Humility
1 Karmic Justice
1 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Pithing Needle
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Do you have win percentages we can compare?
Energy Field is about the best answer to elves I know, and that is where the card really shines. All the other match-ups Solitary Confinement is a sound replacement as you have time to set it up.
Oh, and Sterling Grove without Rest in Peace does not protect E Field. When someone kills grove E Field goes with it.
Agreed and solved.
On Enlightened Tutor:
As always tutors can be amazing. However, I have tested this card quite a bit and surprisingly I find it marginal, but I’m open to being educated. The main reasons I found it marginal was it’s speed and the pressure it puts on the decks mana. As you mention it is best when you need to find an answer quick at the start of the game. (In the scenario you described a quick Energy Field) In that role I can see it being decent against decks like Dredge (RIP or Tormods Crypt), Tin Fins (see dredge), Storm (Chalice @ 0, or Sterling Grove) ... However, when you do that you need to haveturn 1. The way the decks mana is configured today (to avoid Wasteland & Stifle) that is a tall order. That can be fixed, but opens the mana up for more abuse, and more exposure to the tempo MU. In my view this deck has problems with fast combo decks primarily ones that attack, discard attrition decks, Omnitell, and sometimes all out control decks not agro decks. …can and do agro decks beat us? Sure, but they are not our biggest problems. When it comes to control and combo all the games are winnable (some moreso than others which I will get to) but are highly dependent on our opening hands and the mana accessible. Enlightened Tutor can be used to extend our hate package which is intriguing, but encourages us to not use our T1 to ramp which is almost always a mistake. Additinally it can not help us with getting Leyline of Sanctity online early a card in which swings most of those match-ups if dropped early.
On my last assessment in the end it was just one less enchantment the deck ran, and it didn't affect the game fast enough. At the point of the game in which it was relevant I personally would rather just start drawing enchantments and race. Is it how I was playing the card that was incorrect? I’ll test it again and see how it performs.
@ BUG and Replenish
Why do you feel Replenish is better than Rest In Peace vs BUG? It is one of the MU's in which I thought RIP shined as it will buy you a lot of time vs. their dudes. Maybe you need more player shroud to protect against their disruption?
You're right, but I look at the deck more against the field than I do that single MU or scenario, and pretty unlikely you will. Stoneforge is so slow & their threats are soo light that Solitary Confinement & Oblivion Ring are fine., and BUG yes the card is good there, but RIP basically is the same thing as it nerfs all their dudes to pretty slow clocks. To me the deck functions fine without it and I'm even considering reducing or eliminating them from the board as I never bring in all of them. Ever.
Yes I did. Wastelock happens very little it might just be that I run Savannah over a basic plains. Maybe I should look at changing that.
BUG is very beatable just value player shroud high. Jace is particularly scary with a strong start of a Miracles player into fate stealing followed with Jace ultimate. Guile is effective at mitigating this, but sometimes not enough.
Without running simulations I think this is a personal preference. This is like the decks Ponder that just keeps on giving. So opt for 4.
It does nothing relevant to creature decks outside of Elves. It is good at slowing storms / Tin Fins artifact mana and hasty creatures. There might be something better for combo, but it is my go to right now. In the Solitaire Thread there was a mention of Curse of Exhaustion, but I fear it is too costly/slow..
Carpet of Flowers I love the card, but I fear it isn’t good enough here we need to slow our opponents not speed ourselves.
vs. Notion Thief – Oblivion Ring is all around better in your board and so you should use that. Words of War is
a house against almost all the hate bears, and is a win con I’m trying to figure out how to appropriately slash for with minimal mana exposure.
Got it.
As much as I loved playing with Emrakul it’s overall pretty terrible in this meta of targeted discard and Rest in Peace. Many games it will just be trapped in your hand and a waste of a draw. When it workls it’s fun. …but it works very little.
Sigil is good because it works against boarded in [cards]Pithing Needles[/card] as in it is unaffected. The bad part is it blocked by Teeg. Karakas is my only answer to that right now. Words of War could do a good deal for the deck if it doesn’t ruin the mana.
Shardless BUG can be helped by Solitary Confinement and maxing out the Rest in Peace
Sneak and Show implies to me it is not Omnitell. This match is all about Oblivion Ring. Omnitell is rough, but beatable.
Miracles is beatable when they don’t have the nutz and if they do our nutz draw beats theirs. [cards]Oblivion Ring[/card] & Solitary confinement do a lot of work here as well because they are so threat light and 3 is hard for Counterbalance to hit.
Aggro Loam I honestly don’t think I have lost to this deck. 4 Rest in Peace do a ton of work here.
I’m going to have to write this up later as it has taken me a while to write this thusfar. I am considering 1-2 more Seal of Primordium in the main or board to shore-up a lot of the decks tougher match-ups.
Vs. Omnitell – Drop in off of SnT to nab any enabling enchantment.
Vs. Counterbalance – Drop early to sneak under it’s disruption.
Vs. Storm make it hard for them to use LED
Vs. Maverick and D&T kill Ethersworn, Phyrexian Revoker
Vs. Tin Fins Kill Serenity
Vs. Enchantress kill …
Vs. Mud. Pick one.
You get the idea.
In general from playing lots of games with this deck your sideboard choices do not hose troublesome decks enough. When I have more time I will describe why.
Let’s keep this conversation going though because I think we can help each other.
I have been playing magic over the last couple days online and racked up 22 games.
In those games I tested (3) Sterling Grove in the Abundant Growth slots.
Overall my findings are the deck can use the ability of Sterling Grove well, but suffers a fair amount without Abundant Growth in high numbers.
I found without Abundant Growth that I had to mulligan more. I figure this is because the casting costs between the two are drastically different
Overall I reassessed the deck and made the following changes.
Main:
-1 Abundant Growth
-1 Elephant Grass
+2 Sterling Grove
This configuration feels very right as the mulligan rate has gone down and the win percentage has gone up.
I have re-tooled the sideboard to better fight the combo meta that is online. Old tricks were not cutting it.
The sideboard is now as follows:
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Curse of Exhaustion
2 Elephant Grass
2 Hidden Herd
1 Gaddock Teeg
I had the option of testing against ANT the other day and realized one fatal flaw with Blind Obedience ...it does NOTHING to LED as it does not tap.
I moved on to Chalice of the Void dropping it for 0 stole some games, but once the jig was up, or I was on the draw it did nothing. It also made me drop a Confinement once and I was not happy.
So I went back to the drawing board, and was reminded of a card mentioned in the Solitaire thread. Curse of Exhaustion That card is absolutely nutz. It is unbelievable to me just how good / versatile it is.
It is amazing against storm, elves, and Omnitell. 3 of he decks hardest match-ups. It's almost worth a consideration main.
Gaddock was also brought in to leverage Green Sun's to put on the beatz while the other hate goes to work. There is some non synergy with Curse that is unpleasant, but that what the (2) Karakas are for.
So, Current Omnitell Package: Orings Curse Gaddock
Current Storm Pacakge: Gaddock, Curse, Leyline
Hidden Herd was an experiment chosen over Hidden Gibbons because it was a card I wanted to abuse in combo and control MU's when removal was boarded out. ...but now I'm thinking there might not be enough swap slots to bring them in vs. combo so it might go back to Gibbons.
If there are combo players willing to test with me come find me. Thanks.
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