All B/R update speculation.

[feline]

18 hours away if they announce it on the 20th midnight eastern time. "Here's hoping for another unban"

[lordofthepit]

18 hours away if they announce it on the 20th midnight eastern time. "Here's hoping for another unban"

Pretty sure B&R announcements are now tied to the new sets.

[catmint]

If they are unable to print anything that has an impact on legacy for 2 sets at least they should unban a couple of things.

[TkDodo]

Announcement will be on April 22nd:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...ly/news/042213

[xfxf]

And yet you admit it. The fact that you consider a different opinion as "trolling" makes you the troll.

No, actually making a big fuss, then being wrong, having no issues about being wrong and keeping your attitude despite being wrong is what makes you a troll:

And there is nothing wrong with that. I have no issues being wrong in this regard.

Also U-turns like these while still keeping the arrogant attitude:

Sorta like now?

We have one deck that is not blue that is a DTB: Jund. The format fluctuates, but most of the time there only ever exists one non-blue DTB. Sure, there are other non-blue decks that put up results, but they are almost all tier 1.5/2 decks because they just die to combo. And guess what every one of those blue decks have?

Brainstorm.

The point I was making wasn't to justify a unbanning of Ancestral Recall (because it is clearly too powerful), but rather to show that the power level of Brainstorm is too high for Legacy and that it stifles (viable) deck variety. You need a damn good reason not to run Brainstorm in Legacy. No, this isn't anything new, but neither is the trend of 90% of the meta being blue and maybe one or two decks being non-blue that are tier 1 and don't just fold to combo.

Ah ok, I got it. I might argue that it may be worth using just because it can turn into a Recall sometimes. Also, protects stuff from discard.

Otherwise I agree. For redundant decks, Brainstorm isn't helpful.

I think Brainstorm is a fun card to play with. That's the best reason for not banning it.

And for this:

Keeping the quote.

Sad puppy :(
I think anyone who thinks Brainstorm is too powerful for Legacy should quit their whining and play Modern until they develop a better understanding of Eternal Magic and I'm glad if players with this level of Magic appreciation find this attitude elitist and keep away from this format, in short good riddance. Quote me on this.

[HammafistRoob]

A new poll should be opened for this thread since this one is quite old. It would be interesting to see what everyone thinks in 2013.

[Lemnear]

Yeah, another Combo deck slaughered by a banning in Modern and Tropical Storm returns to Vintage!

Edit: awesome how some of the big sellers on the web get Insider infos beforehand each B&R announcement ... impossible that Judge Regrowths are Sold out or 30€+ in less than 1 minutes after the release of the list.

Edit2: frustrating that these are the same Shops who have 130+ of each FtV, Commanders Arsenal etc. too. This is a joke

[Tammit67]

"Modern tournaments have recently been diverse, with no dominant deck. However, large tournaments have had a problem with the Eggs deck, causing rounds to take significantly longer.

The deck uses Second Sunrise and Faith's Reward to get back cards that generate mana, such as Lotus Bloom, and various artifacts that draw a card. A common choice to win the game is Pyrite Spellbomb. However, the way the player gets to the point of forcing a win might involve casting Second Sunrise so many times that the entire library is drawn, and only cards put back with Conjurer's Bauble are left. A single turn might take fifteen minutes or more.

In a large tournament, such as a Grand Prix, when time for the round expires, players are given five additional turns to complete their game. Usually, this takes a few minutes to conclude the rest of the games. However, a player playing Eggs might have a fifteen-minute turn during the additional turns, delaying the start of the next round by ten minutes or more (beyond the next-longest match). Over the course of a day, this can mean an extra hour of waiting for everyone else in the tournament.

The DCI considered which card to ban to deal with this issue. We decided to try and do the narrowest possible ban: one that would reduce the chance of such long turns without banning a card used in other decks. That is why Second Sunrise is banned in Modern."

I feel like I can swap modern with legacy, and eggs with High Tide. That scares me.

[Aggro_zombies]

I guess it's good that the DCI doesn't seem to care all that much about Eternal, then.

I'm vaguely interested in getting into Modern, but not until it feels like the DCI is done with the whole "Ban shit until we figure out what we want the format to look like" thing.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

They should seriously just reprint Force of Will, it'd let them unban like 20 cards in Modern.

[clavio]

They should seriously just reprint Force of Will, it'd let them unban like 20 cards in Modern.

Counterspell and Force Spike would be a nice start

[GradStudentGuy]

"Modern tournaments have recently been diverse, with no dominant deck. However, large tournaments have had a problem with the Eggs deck, causing rounds to take significantly longer.

The deck uses Second Sunrise and Faith's Reward to get back cards that generate mana, such as Lotus Bloom, and various artifacts that draw a card. A common choice to win the game is Pyrite Spellbomb. However, the way the player gets to the point of forcing a win might involve casting Second Sunrise so many times that the entire library is drawn, and only cards put back with Conjurer's Bauble are left. A single turn might take fifteen minutes or more.

In a large tournament, such as a Grand Prix, when time for the round expires, players are given five additional turns to complete their game. Usually, this takes a few minutes to conclude the rest of the games. However, a player playing Eggs might have a fifteen-minute turn during the additional turns, delaying the start of the next round by ten minutes or more (beyond the next-longest match). Over the course of a day, this can mean an extra hour of waiting for everyone else in the tournament.

The DCI considered which card to ban to deal with this issue. We decided to try and do the narrowest possible ban: one that would reduce the chance of such long turns without banning a card used in other decks. That is why Second Sunrise is banned in Modern."

I feel like I can swap modern with legacy, and eggs with High Tide. That scares me.

Most experienced high tides players can complete the combo turn in less then 10 minuets and most experienced legacy players know that after a certain point during the High Tide combo it's in their benefit to scoop. As long as DCI allows Sensei Divining Top, the high tide deck should be allowed. That deck causes more draws and time delays then anything else in the format.

[Wilkin]

So nothing was banned or unbanned in legacy, right? Sounds ok to me. I have debates with people about Griselbrand and Show and Tell. And I feel you can make a case either way with those cards.


I'm fine with there being no bannings in legacy. But I will say High Tide decks are making the days longer. I wouldn't ban anything in that deck but man...I wish all those players could play like that girl that won a Starcity Open. Then there wouldn't be an issue.

Hey another banning in Modern. Although, I'm not as opposed to it as there other bannings (like Seething Song).

[Tammit67]

Most experienced high tides players can complete the combo turn in less then 10 minuets and most experienced legacy players know that after a certain point during the High Tide combo it's in their benefit to scoop. As long as DCI allows Sensei Divining Top, the high tide deck should be allowed. That deck causes more draws and time delays then anything else in the format.

I completely agree, and I can finish the combo turn relatively fast. Its just not promising to me to hear a deck get basically banned out of modern for those reasons. I don't know how they can't apply that to high tide.

[Darkenslight]

"Modern tournaments have recently been diverse, with no dominant deck. However, large tournaments have had a problem with the Eggs deck, causing rounds to take significantly longer.

The deck uses Second Sunrise and Faith's Reward to get back cards that generate mana, such as Lotus Bloom, and various artifacts that draw a card. A common choice to win the game is Pyrite Spellbomb. However, the way the player gets to the point of forcing a win might involve casting Second Sunrise so many times that the entire library is drawn, and only cards put back with Conjurer's Bauble are left. A single turn might take fifteen minutes or more.

In a large tournament, such as a Grand Prix, when time for the round expires, players are given five additional turns to complete their game. Usually, this takes a few minutes to conclude the rest of the games. However, a player playing Eggs might have a fifteen-minute turn during the additional turns, delaying the start of the next round by ten minutes or more (beyond the next-longest match). Over the course of a day, this can mean an extra hour of waiting for everyone else in the tournament.

The DCI considered which card to ban to deal with this issue. We decided to try and do the narrowest possible ban: one that would reduce the chance of such long turns without banning a card used in other decks. That is why Second Sunrise is banned in Modern."

I feel like I can swap modern with legacy, and eggs with High Tide. That scares me.

To be fair, most High Tide players can condense that into a mere five minutes (unless it's Solidarity, then you're in trouble).

[Fatal]

there is edge where playing against High Tide/Lands/Stax you should scoop to take game 3..

[Wanderlust]

Very disappointed with the Second Sunrise ban in modern. Before reading their explanation, it seemed like a further attempt to completely eliminate engine combo from Modern. After reading their explanation, I'm concerned - the precedent set with the logic behind that ban is very disturbing. It is the first time since Shahrazad (to my knowledge) that a card has been banned for time reasons. (Explanation of Shahrazad ban: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazin...om/daily/af186) But note that Shahrazad was banned because it can create subgames with the sole purpose of drawing a round. Second Sunrise is only an issue in that regard AFTER time is called in a round. What a narrow, scary reason for banning a card that enabled a really cool, challenging deck.

I think the turn 1-5 procedure once time is called is arbitrary and not particularly satisfying anyways, so why stick to that at the expense of potentially having to ban all engine combo that ever surfaces?

Also, they keep growing the list of reasons for banning cards.

In my opinion, good reasons to ban cards, and how it worked in the olden-days:
1. Ante
2. Dexterity
3. Creates subgame
4. Brokenly warping a format (ie., greatly decreasing format diversity.)

All the newfangled, loose reasons to ban cards:
4. "Gentlemen's agreement not to play card" (Mystical Tutor)
5. May restrict future design space
6. Makes post-time turns go too long (new as of today)
7. Too fast for this format we are trying to sculpt into "something"
8. Card price (reprint it already!)
9. Decreases card-choice diversity (see explanation of Green Sun's Zenith ban in modern. This is an unenforceable precedent - Tarmogoyf existing means you won't play Werebear, but Werebear existing means you won't play Grizzly Bear, etc... etc...)
10. Makes playing tribal "lord" decks not as good (see explanation for Punishing Fire being banned in modern.)

Anyways... whatever... consider me extremely discouraged by the direction Modern is headed.

[Julian23]

Sensei's Divining Top had also beeen banned in Extended due to time restrictions. Ironically this was right before PT Berlin 2008 where people instead opted for even longer turns, gaining several thousand points of life and creating even more insect tokens.

Banning Second Sunrise is ok. The problem is not the time it takes but how good it is. Look at High Tide. Sure it pops up every now and then but Legacy has much better tools for keeping it in check. If the metagame was more hostile for combo decks, those decks would be much less of an issue. So just reprint Force of Will or anything like it so you can stop banning every other combo engine.

[SaberTooth]

i just wanna thank legacy for being a format when i can play a combo deck withouth fear

[frogczar]

i just wanna thank legacy for being a format when i can play a combo deck withouth fear

Legacy says "You're welcome".

The best part is that you might not even win a single match.

Legacy is diverse, the answers are available and it's possible to play what you want (even without blue cards). I hope that this persists.