I have a new bit of tech for those who haven't seen any changes in the deck for a while. I'll preface this by first saying that I have tested it extensively, and played it in a tournament yesterday with great success.
Excluding the Strasbourg results, there aren't many Tribal decks around now. And to be honest, Dredge doesn't really need much to beat them anyway. So I decided to cut Firestorm to try and up my percentages against the Combo decks that have been flooding the meta. It does hurt against Tempo, since they are a guaranteed discard outlet that may kill a creature, but since most of these decks now have to run little, to no direct hate, since they need slots to combat the Combo, Control, and Mid-Range, I'm comfortable with it.
Cuttting to the chase, I'm running the standard Quad list, -1 Ichorid, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Thug, +1 Citadel, +1 Dread Return,+1 Darkblast. Pretty basic. I removed the 4 Firestorms in the SB for 4 Lotus Petal, hence the need for DBlast against Welder, Peacekeeper, etc.
That's right. Lotus Petalin the SB, AND 13 Lands.
An exercise; Try cutting 1 PImp, 1 Ichorid, 1 Citadel(assuming you will still have 12 lands), and 1 Thug(assuming 4, DBlast for me), for the 4 Lotus Petal against any deck without countermagic, or hate that they can effectively use on turn one. Nihil, Crypt, Cage, Leyline, and Surgical being the only ones commonly used. Though if on the play, you can still take a bit of a risk, and implement this plan if you know they don't run Force. Any other hate is irrelevant, and Surgical is only relevant if they can kill you on turn one. So you basically have to ignore it on this plan.
Run some hands with it. Play slowly, evaluating every possible line. While Dredge players are used to doing this for on-board activities, your lines of play from your opener are more often not that varied.
Land+LED+draw spell is always awesome. Now you can add Petal in the Land slot, giving more chances of that explosive hand. However, now Land+Petal+any draw+any discard outlet gives you almost as much explosiveness on turn one. Land+Petal+2 draw is even better, since Land+Looting/Study can draw you into Petal or LED. Even if you don't open with the Petal, you can keep hands like that, and if you Study/Loot into one, the game is over. You can even do stuff like Coliseum+LED+Petal on the draw, and get a Loot out of it if you hit one off the Coliseum.
Tested it for a while, and played with it this weekend. I beat TES, ANT, and Tinfins. All unfavorable, to downright poor matchups. All easily. Just as an example; I beat TES on the draw with a hand of Land+LED+Study+Breakthrough+blanks, when he turn one Duressed me(took LED, obv.). I drew a second dredger for the turn, cast Study drawing Petal, and Petal'd into Breakthrough. I beat Tinfins on the play without a draw spell! Land, PImp, Petal, hardcast Therapy, discard Bridge, Troll, and Ichorid to PImp, flashback Therapy. Next turn swing for five. Next turn swing for seven and Therapy again.
This does limit your sideboard however. Right now, I'm on something like this:
4 Lotus Petal
3 Nature's Claim
3 Wispmare
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ashen Ghoul
1 Land/2nd Dread/Dread Target, ?
RIP is heavy in my area. As is Combo, and Blade. Petal for Combo, Claim+Wisp against RIP, and a lot of GerryT's deck running Leylines. Grudge+Ghoul against the mid-range decks. Blade with Extractions, or Jund with Nihil and the like.
The last slot is still undecided. I really want a land there, since against any deck with countermagic, you need multiples to use both your anti-hate, and advance your own game. I've found that petal doesn't work in this regard, since if they counter your spell, they effectively counter your future mana sources as well. Especially against the Tempo decks with multiple free counters, and Wastes. Seems impossible to want 18 mana sources in a Dredge deck. But that's how I'm leaning. Still working on it though.
But seriously. If you have a good amount of the decks mentioned in your meta. Decks that we normally are disadvantaged to, even in game one. Please test this out.
Last edited by Parcher; 04-15-2013 at 04:10 PM.
~ Team Unicorn MottoOriginally Posted by MacGruber
Will try it.
Petal sounds like our first turn would be manic!
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What's everyone's thoughts on the DR slots?
I'm running between 1 and 2 doctor targets right now (mainly one), and whilst I'm very happy with my Manaless setup, here in combo-LED-dredgeland I'm still flitting between a few different targets.
Flame-kin Zealot & Flayer of the Hatebound are my fave's.
Griselbrand seems a little unnecessary though. In Manaless I find it's almost necessary to run with 3 Grisel (or Spy, Sphinx etc.) to flip the deck.
With LED though I've usually already flipped more than half the deck by the time I could Doctor up a target.
I'm currently testing Craterhoof Behemoth.
So far, it seems good, but it also feels a bit win more.
Opinions?
Last edited by slave; 04-17-2013 at 12:02 PM.
Petals sounds amazing to be honest. I'll be testing this extensively, and will report back later when I have some hard data to munch on.
Thanks for the lead Parcher, this looks VERY promising.
I literally just got my LEDs. What did I miss?
What's the new standard here? Is it still the Quad list?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Hi guys, I'm new to the forum but was attracted by the Primer, which was really well written. I'd love to build this deck, mainly because it is somewhat of a budget friendly deck (even compared to some modern decks). For the moment I can't afford the LEDs, but I'd like to know if replacing them with Lotus Petals can do any harm (I mean, they can allow us to careful study twice T1). I understand it is a big blow to the deck, just was interested in knowing if I'd be better off using these for the moment os simply going with the non-LED build altogether.
Another question is whether to use Reanimate alongside DRs (in the case of decks that use Iona in the MB) although this is less likely to work as it seems forcing the deck too much to do something it doesn't do + it kills DRs synergies.
Anyways, thanks in advance for any help I may get
I know this version doesn't really use Reanimator targets (Quadlazer lists do not run Dread Return).
Before I got my LEDs, I used to run Manaless Dredge. That deck was as good as this but it also has its liabilities. I know one version of Manaless runs Griselbrand and Flayer of the Hatebound for damage outside of combat step.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
So basically quadlazer wins by generating huge amounts of zombies, right?
I mean, I like manaless dredge, I'm just not too sure about its reliability, especially in a graveyard hate-hevavy meta.
If I were to build a quadlazer list or the standard LED dredge replacing LED with lotus petal, could this work. Furthermore, will this list work better with or without LP? And finally, what does Parcher's list use LPs in the sideboard for?
Thanks for the response nameless!
You shouldn't be replacing LEDs at all unless it's a temporary budget issue. Your list would be helpful in order to come up with an optimal replacement. The standard LED build runs 16 discard outlets (not counting Cephalid Coliseum or Cabal Therapy). If you take out LED you have to replace it with some form of self discard or you will have major consistency issues. Therefore Lotus Petal is clearly not even close to a good replacement for LED (I know this wasn't Parchers proposition).
I actually really like the idea of trying out Lotus Petal so much I'm going to try and squeeze 3 in my mainboard for some testing.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
It is a temporary budget issue. My list ATM is pretty standard along these lines:
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
4x Putrid Imp
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Breakthough
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4x Bridge from Below
2x Dread Return
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Tarnished Citadel
4x Cephalid Coliseum
My idea for LP was to use it as acceleration, but do you think this list needs some more discard?
I forgot to mention Putrid Imp as a discard outlet (doh!) even though my list runs 2 maindeck.
How attached to the Dread Return package are you? In all the testing I've done and data analysis' I've seen seem to prove that the deck is actually better(for big tournaments) without a Dread Return package maindeck. I actually only run 1 DR, if any, and 0 targets for it in my 75. Reason being that Cabal Therapy is the card that will actually win you most of your games, giving your opponent one or two chances to topdeck a sweeper(if they even have mana to cast it) generally won't matter at all since you'd still have Ichorids coming back and leaving zombies behind. I honestly haven't missed Dread Return at all, no more mulling to five and seeing FKZs among other dead cards in hand. I literally never mulligan into oblivion which was a minor issue when running 2-3 Dread Returns and 1-2 targets for it. I also feel the players that are trying to side in anti-graveyard hate and a Dread Return package are ruining the decks consistency by siding out too many key elements(I hate having to side out breakthrough and/or LED, they are our most explosive cards and can really accelerate you right passed your opponents Rest in Peace or Deathrite Shaman.
About your list Tx-
I do like 14 lands, but imho the twelfth dredger is far more important than the 14th land. So my first suggestion would be -1 Citadel +1 Thug (or Darkblast which I've never been a big advocate of)
I would then cut the DR package entirely for Tireless Tribe. Maybe you could leave a Dread Return for creating zombies and bringing back Grave-Troll to randomly own anyone not playing Sword to Plowshares on the spot but idk I tend to shy away from cards with only cornercase applications(hence me not being big about Darkblast).
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
Two things. I agree that Thug is better than Dblast simply as the 12th dredger, which I feel is needed. And that it is rare for it's use as removal to be relevant. Though without Fstorm or Norn, it is a small comfort. It is acting as the fifth PImp against Tempo where I decided it was worth inclusion. Permanant and/or uncounterable discard outlets have always been the best way to beat Tempo
As for Petal, I do not advocate it main. Honestly, I don't see cuts for it outside of lands. Whicb is awful against any deck with Force, since in most cases they counter your land with your spell. Which hurts consistancy and forces more mulligans. Quad has a low mulligan rate for this deck, which I like. And with only boarding Petal against decks without Force, not only does it not hurt your mulligan rate, it actually helps it against the decks which you need an opener with strict requirements for what you are able to do in the first two turns.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
I'll definately try this out. I liked the FKZ because of the combo feel, but I agree it didn't seem as necessary.
PS: Where can I find your list to take a look at it?
This time only six ppl showed up at our weekly legacy (maybe because of Hanau?).
We all decided to play, 5 rounds so we have to face everyone else.
Round1 Burn 2/1
G1 pretty easy win because of breakthrough.
G2 im one turn short to win and die sadly.
G3 i start with double led, looting and stinkweed imp + thug + x
Round2 UW Control 0/2
G1 i loose opt, no business in within 30 cards
G2 mull to 3 ...
We played before like 12 Testgames and i crushed him pre- as postboard like 10/2 ... very dissapointing!
Round3 Aluren 2/0
G1 i go off turn1 with drawspells.
G2 i cast study, looting, study. on hist last turn he has aluren in hand but nothing else and topdecks ... a land!
Round4 Werewolf-Stompy 2/0
G1 im otd and got a save keep. 7 cards within ggt,pimp,land, looting, x,x,x (im safe to 3sphere, blood moon and chalice)
G2 again otd but he cant land his batterskull.
Round5 Goblins 2/0
G1 this deck is freakin' awesome and i overwhelm him with zombies.
G2 i win with no cards in lib. if my opp would have wasted my lonley gemstone mine with 1 counter i would have lost due to no cards in library.
(but lucky as i am he didnt and in my and i can cast therapy on myself to discard another ichorid and attack in my last turn for lethal dmg, since he has creatures to block)
So i am now 4/1 and first on standings.
Im playing pauper during the rounds and we're waiting for the last 2 players to finish which tooks about an hour.
After all im getting told that we just played for fun and dont pay entry fee. Im quit upset about this and drive home.
If i would have known that earlier ... there are some better things to do at weekend .
Some thoughts about yesterday:
most of ppl argue that dredge is dead and dont have rights to exist. I told them that dredge has some monts were it is good and some were it isnt because of hate but dont they dont agreed with me. I dont know why, the only thing that matters: i proved them wrong!
My list is as follows.
//MANA-18
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
//CREATURES-22
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
//SPELLS-20
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below
The sideboard is a complete mess right now since I'm confused if Lotus Petal is worth it or not... will try to test postboard against RUG today.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
I've been running a pretty similar list, but with -1 Tarnished +1 PImp. I feel like 14 lands + LED is a lot of mana. I've had some mulligans because of triple land hands (none of them being Cephalid Coliseum).
I've also been testing the Lotus Petal stuff, and I feel it's worth it. I just removed my Leyline of the Voids for it, because I haven't used them in a while. Lotus Petal seems ok, not superb or anything, but it does add up some speed.
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
SB: 4 Lotus Petal
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ashen Ghoul
SB: 2 Coffin Purge (super duper flex slot)
SB: 1 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
Pretty much Quadlazerish. It's the strongest LED Dredge by far on a long run.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Maybe cutting breakthrough to get the set of imps would be good. Having loothing and studies allows you to run less than 4 BT.
GC.
What do you side in the petals against? And what do you cut?
Hi guys,
Could I get some advice?
Let's say you draw a hand with LED, Draw spell, a dredger & 3 lands on game1 - so you still don't know what your opponent is playing.
Would you go for it on T1, or play slower to try and get the lands into play?
Cheers.
Do those lands do anything? Is the draw spell Faithless Looting? Are any of the lands Cephalid Coliseum?
Also, the answer is almost certainly "go for it" regardless of the answers to the above, unless your hand is like Darkblast, City of Brass, LED, Careful Study and blanks.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
Since I have absolutle no clue what they're playing I assume I'm on the play?
In this case, go for it. Every single time.
They must
a) be a deck which plays Force of Will
b) have it (as a 4 off ~40% chance)
c) you'd still have a good chance if the draw spell mentioned is looting and could've still be in an okay shape if it isn't AND they counter it.
If you wait theres just some more stuff you turn on and you have near to no use of it..
Though it does depend on the lands.. if one of it is a Cephalid Coliseum I'm more declined to wait a turn to play it and activate it t3 if I'm stopped on turn 2.
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