Miracle Control

[guybrush3]

Why on earth would you play a Blood Moon when they have an active DRS on the board?

Also, Tribal aggro decks are at a low right now - at least in my local meta. Like I've said in my post about Blood Moon, it's a meta-call. By all means, if you feel that you're going to be facing a buttload of Merfolk or Goblins (Elves are already a good matchup without Engineered Plague), then run a Black Splash.

i assume u sword their drs or burn them with a burn spell

[twndomn]

If you're boarding a cmc 1 enchantment against a matchup where resources development and grinding is everything, you're doing it wrong. Especially against a matchup that has so many angles of attacking you that such a narrow card won't do anything against good pilots.
Sulfur Elemental has the difference of not only killing Souls' token and Elspeth's ones, but being a 3/2 creature on its own that trades with Snapcaster, Geist, Mystic and may kill Jace on an ambush (and gives a clock).

Once Dread of Night is on the ground, people can start Brainstorming away Lingering Souls, effectively negating its effectiveness. Plus, you need 2 Dreads of Night to kill a Geist, and it suffers from Explosives and Disenchant (and no, they are not keeping Stps against Miracle postboard, it's not a valid counter-argument).
It's much easier to play around a card you see on the table that one you can't see coming (and can't counter).

Once Sulfur Elemental is on the ground, people can start Brainstorming away Lingering Souls, effectively negating its effectiveness, and it suffers from Explosives. You can see it coming ever since Joe/Oarsman used it in his SB. See the flaw in your logic?

2 Dread of Night not only kill Geists, also kill Stoneforges.

[Piceli89]

Once Sulfur Elemental is on the ground, people can start Brainstorming away Lingering Souls, effectively negating its effectiveness, and it suffers from Explosives. You can see it coming ever since Joe/Oarsman used it in his SB. See the flaw in your logic?

2 Dread of Night not only kill Geists, also kill Stoneforges.

You, sir, have become to me like one of those Youtube videos that you know are crappy as shit and you feel dirty to watch them, but they're just too good to pass up one more time and you always end up giving them a go in one of those lonely nights. I've actually searched for every post of yours on this topic just to lolz at the fallacious, revealing-lack-of-test content every fucking time.
It's like a shitton of people here who feel legitimated to throw terrible ideas under the wheel just because they're on the forum without having a real grasp of what works and what works better in Legacy--> i.e., no test. Or maybe because somebody else with more credit has done before, so they're constantly hiding behind the "look at..." alibi.

I think I'll do it just one more time for the uber-lolz.

1) Sulfur Elemental is an answer to LSouls as much as Dread of Night is, difference is that post-side they have less answers to it, it has flash, and as I said it does other things. They can Brainstorm away their Lingering Souls, but it will still be a creature beating and blocking, whilst DoN will be a useless piece of garbage on the board.

2) How many odds do you have of having 2 DoN on the board?
Oh wait, I got it! You're boarding 4 of them, right?
Oh my god he has 2 Dread of Nights on the board, how Imma goin' to do it?
Well, I'll just shuffle away this Mystics with the Jace i'm going to cast with him having 2 cards in hand and me 5.. Or maybe who cares, I can still cast Mystic and grab Batterskull, who cares if she dies, it's still a card for another..


Exactly where you want to be with a hard control deck./troll

Oh, are you worried about Geist? Look! A handy and versatile solution!

3) Sulfur Elemental was played by us europeans before everyother Starcitygames so-called superstar was (although I have respect for Joe Lossett). Look at the lists in August-October 2012, you can see 2 Sulfur Elementals in every Miracle Control by Italian good players.
Here, take it. 100% of the names there are Italian and Spanish.
These days is not an auto-inclusion in the sideboard, but it's still such a versatile card (always boarding against combo as well to have additional flashy clock) and with Death and Taxes living its moment, it's coming back for sure.


Look, I'll be a asshole with you, but trust me, I really do have experience with blue-based control decks. In spite of the form, I'm not spitting shit.
(But still, I'm waiting for the next round of argumenting awesomeness :D)

[sdematt]

You, sir, have become to me like one of those Youtube videos that you know are crappy as shit and you feel dirty to watch them, but they're just too good to pass up one more time and you always end up giving them a go in one of those lonely nights. I've actually searched for every post of yours on this topic just to lolz at the fallacious, revealing-lack-of-test content every fucking time.
It's like a shitton of people here who feel legitimated to throw terrible ideas under the wheel just because they're on the forum without having a real grasp of what works and what works better in Legacy--> i.e., no test. Or maybe because somebody else with more credit has done before, so they're constantly hiding behind the "look at..." alibi.

I think I'll do it just one more time for the uber-lolz.

1) Sulfur Elemental is an answer to LSouls as much as Dread of Night is, difference is that post-side they have less answers to it, it has flash, and as I said it does other things. They can Brainstorm away their Lingering Souls, but it will still be a creature beating and blocking, whilst DoN will be a useless piece of garbage on the board.

2) How many odds do you have of having 2 DoN on the board?
Oh wait, I got it! You're boarding 4 of them, right?
Oh my god he has 2 Dread of Nights on the board, how Imma goin' to do it?
Well, I'll just shuffle away this Mystics with the Jace i'm going to cast with him having 2 cards in hand and me 5.. Or maybe who cares, I can still cast Mystic and grab Batterskull, who cares if she dies, it's still a card for another..


Exactly where you want to be with a hard control deck./troll

3) Sulfur Elemental was played by us europeans before everyother Starcitygames so-called superstar was (although I have respect for Joe Lossett). Look at the lists from August-September 2012, you can see 2 Sulfur Elementals in every Miracle Control by Italian good players.
Here, take it. 100% of the names there are Italian and Spanish.
These days is not an auto-inclusion in the sideboard, but it's still such a versatile card (always boarding against combo as well to have additional flashy clock) and with Death and Taxes living its moment, it's coming back for sure.


Look, I'll be a asshole with you, but trust me, I really do have experience with blue-based control decks. In spite of the form, I'm not spitting shit.
(But still, I'm waiting for the next round of argumenting awesomeness :D)

[oarsman]

Communicating in threads like this often leads to something beneficial. But in this case I find the medium severely lacking, as there is no way I can accurately convey the joy I experienced reading the last few posts.

[SBGpinas]

Communicating in threads like this often leads to something beneficial. But in this case I find the medium severely lacking, as there is no way I can accurately convey the joy I experienced reading the last few posts.

Perhaps an animated gif is in order, like what sdmatt has posted? lol

[Dzra]

You, sir, have become to me like one of those Youtube videos that you know are crappy as shit and you feel dirty to watch them, but they're just too good to pass up one more time and you always end up giving them a go in one of those lonely nights. I've actually searched for every post of yours on this topic just to lolz at the fallacious, revealing-lack-of-test content every fucking time.

lol, funny you should say this. Last local Legacy tournament, twndomn got brought up when discussing forum trolls or some such. Me and sauce spent a good 3 or 5 min showing a friend several of twndomn's more insightful discourses.

And yes, I've had a Goblin player try to REB an Energy Field before. However, since Energy Field literally wins the game entirely by itself, it is generally prudent to be ready to protect it.

[drocker23]

so are some of the more classic cards really dead? the cards i am speaking of are elspeth, knight-errant and counterspell. one of the things i have the hardest time doing is finalizing my last few flex slots. let's take my current list and look at the cards that are 99.9% likely not to change in any given miracles deck:

22 lands
4 brainstorm
3 counterbalance
2 entreat the angels
4 force of will
3 jace, the mind sculptor
4 sensei's divining top
2 spell pierce
1 supreme verdict
4 swords to plowshares
3 terminus
2 vendilion clique
1 venser, shaper savant

so basically there are 5 spots to be mess with. going away from the rip/helm version which i believe to now be inferior and i feel as though the mystic versionis too clunky, the cards i run in these spots are:

2 counterspell
1 elsepth, knight-errant
2 snapcaster mage

after reading more recent list the main thing i cannot determine or figure out is, what is the correct/optimal combination of creatures? obviously we want our creatures to not only hold utility purposes but also allow us to beat down when our opponent's board is empty as well as protect our jaces. but how many is too many? which ones should get cut? how many of each should be ran?

also, is elspeth really not that good anymore? she used to break control mirrors but lingering souls is faster than our elsepth tokens in the stoneblade matchup and they fly so it puts our planeswalkers in danger and is also a non-bo with more and more miracle decks playing sulfur elemental out of the board.

so since all the major cards in the deck are pretty much already covered, in these last few flex spots, what does the deck really want? what does the deck really need that isn't be taken care of already? what is the most optimal cards to go into these spots especially how the meta has been lately? (pretty diverse in my opinion). more counters? more dudes? more removal? more win conditions?what cards would be recommended in these spots?

[phazonmutant]

so are some of the more classic cards really dead? the cards i am speaking of are elspeth, knight-errant and counterspell. one of the things i have the hardest time doing is finalizing my last few flex slots. let's take my current list and look at the cards that are 99.9% likely not to change in any given miracles deck:

22 lands
4 brainstorm
3 counterbalance
2 entreat the angels
4 force of will
3 jace, the mind sculptor
4 sensei's divining top
2 spell pierce
1 supreme verdict
4 swords to plowshares
3 terminus
2 vendilion clique
1 venser, shaper savant

It seems like Miracles is a much more customizable deck than you give it credit for. alphastryk top 8'd with -1 land, -1 Counterbalance, -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Supreme verdict, -1 Vendilion Clique, -1 Venser, although admittedly with the RiP package.

It really seems like Miracles is a deck that responds well to playstyle. Some do well with prison/combo in the form of RiP / Helm / EField, some do well with lots of legendary flash creatures.

[drocker23]

i'm actually wondering if people are underestimating the value of trinket mage. i believe a possible trinket mage package might be good in the flex spots for a few reasons:

1) he's a dude. attacks/blocks and the rest.
2) he creates card advantage rather than card disadvantage like enlightened tutor and might even allow you to safely cut a divining top.
3) enlightened tutor has lost some of its power ever since thopter foundry/sword of the meek stopped being good. the hoser cards it used to go get don't win games as well as they used to.
4) you simply cannot make a tutor target for everything. so having a few well rounded answes could be a nice compliment to the deck that is trying to take overwhelming control of the game.
5) he is 3 mana and blue which helps with our counterbalances and force of wills.
6) he is a shuffle effect we can hold in reserve if need be if we have already cracked a bunch of fetches or don't have any available in case we need to really shuffle some bad cards away.
so the idea here would be to run 2 - 3 trinket mages and 2 - 3 targets depending on the number of cuts. the targets I am thinking of would be:

1) engineered explosives - we play 3 colours, it's removal we can tutor for, it kills things that aren't creatures.
2) pithing needle - not the strongest card in the deck but it's there as an answer to a problematic card in the match up. downside is it's susceptible to abrupt decay and may turn off your own cards
3) tormod's crypt/grafdigger's cage/relic of progenitus - some sort of artifact based graveyard hate that we can tutor for if the matchup calls for it. i think cage might be the one we would want here because of lingering souls and snapcaster mages. i don't think we will be seeing green sun zenith anytime soon but if we do it's there. also cage is not a one time thing like the other 2 are, and is less reliant on us actually needing/having academy ruins in the deck.

so the trinket mage offers a toolbox within a deck that is designed to turn off their deck. although this might require us to make room for an academy ruins, i think having a well rounded package like this could serve very nicely in a diverse metagame. what are your thoughts on this idea? you would think that if it's as good as i have been able to describe it, people would already be doing it, and i'm not claiming this to be 'innovate' or act like it's anything new. i just think that sometimes older strategies are forgotten but could actually be rehashed and brought back and still be powerful. i'm wondering if this is the right call for the deck.

these 3 tutor targets seem to me to be the most relevant artifact cards we can find that are tutorable from a trinket mage. they are all also very well rounded and somewhat relevant in almost every matchup. and because we aren't dedicating too many spots in the deck, it seems like we could safely run these without our deck feeling too clunky or basing the entire premise of the deck around this package.

[Einherjer]

Phazonmutant is right, it really all boils down to what version you like playing. There are probably 3 different versions, 2 competitive ones and one that's probably more fun to play than good.

1) Legendary Miracles: Snapcaster Mages, Vendilion Cliques and Venser are played here, alongside 1-2 Karakas. A lot of stackinteraction and very little of tapping out. You can easily play Counterspell here, as it perfectly fits into this very gameplan, especially powerful with Snapcaster Mage.
2) RIP Miracles: Simply cut those creatures and smash RIP/Helm/Tutor in. Maybe you keep 1 Karakas 1 Clique (like I did at GP Strasbourg) but you are generally very low on creatures. You tap out a lot and are able to feature a lot of preboard hatepieces - due to your E-Tutor(s). You easily hate out GY-tactics G1 and if you feel like it you can always pack stuff like Humility mainboard.
3) Stoneforge Mystic Miracles: I enjoyed playing this version for quite some time and won quite a lot local tournaments with it. Though I think that this version is superior to the others. And if you really want to play Mystic in Miracles it might be a good idea to splash it in the RIP Miracles list, just like Ohlschwager did.


On Trinket Mage:
I used to play him quite some time ago, mostly in my Mystic-builds. He was great as he added maindeckable graveyardhate and metadepending hate to the mainboard. But wait? RIP + Tutor do the same. Even though Trinket Mage does generate "CA" while Tutor generates CDA the Mage is still inferior due to my understanding. Even the body can't be used a lot unless you are playing a more aggressive way with Mystics and Mishras. It probably is just "Tutor+Fog" at best. You still tap out for it, which isn't what most Miraclelists want to be doing.


And don't you ever cut a Top.

Greetings

[Dzra]

Elspeth is an oldie but goody that I've been using for control mirrors and all the GBx decks that have a tough time dealing with it. It's not bad MD, but it's fine in the SB also. I still use Counterspell and you can easily squeeze a second into the SB.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the RIP build though. What makes you think it's no longer as good in the meta?

I've tried Trinket Mage before and the conclusion I came to was that without equipment, the 2/2 non-evasive body wasn't overly useful. Maybe running it alongside Elspeth would be more impressive, but I would probably still take the instant speed and reduced cost of Enlightened Tutor. Really, the card disadvantage isn't so bad since you're usually either tutoring for a Top, a bomb, or a cmc to flip with Counterbalance (usually in that order).

[drocker23]

Elspeth is an oldie but goody that I've been using for control mirrors and all the GBx decks that have a tough time dealing with it. It's not bad MD, but it's fine in the SB also. I still use Counterspell and you can easily squeeze a second into the SB.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the RIP build though. What makes you think it's no longer as good in the meta?

I've tried Trinket Mage before and the conclusion I came to was that without equipment, the 2/2 non-evasive body wasn't overly useful. Maybe running it alongside Elspeth would be more impressive, but I would probably still take the instant speed and reduced cost of Enlightened Tutor. Really, the card disadvantage isn't so bad since you're usually either tutoring for a Top, a bomb, or a cmc to flip with Counterbalance (usually in that order).

the reason why i think the RIP/Helm version isn't very good anymore is because abrupt decay kills that version so hard in the face. also with so few creatures in it it's really hard to throw dudes on the table to beat Liliana. in my own testing experience i could not beat abrupt decay/liliana. any soft lock was essentially unatainable. and i know that the results of decks that have been doing well lately are dropping the combo and going more spell based.

[drocker23]

Phazonmutant is right, it really all boils down to what version you like playing. There are probably 3 different versions, 2 competitive ones and one that's probably more fun to play than good.

1) Legendary Miracles: Snapcaster Mages, Vendilion Cliques and Venser are played here, alongside 1-2 Karakas. A lot of stackinteraction and very little of tapping out. You can easily play Counterspell here, as it perfectly fits into this very gameplan, especially powerful with Snapcaster Mage.
2) RIP Miracles: Simply cut those creatures and smash RIP/Helm/Tutor in. Maybe you keep 1 Karakas 1 Clique (like I did at GP Strasbourg) but you are generally very low on creatures. You tap out a lot and are able to feature a lot of preboard hatepieces - due to your E-Tutor(s). You easily hate out GY-tactics G1 and if you feel like it you can always pack stuff like Humility mainboard.
3) Stoneforge Mystic Miracles: I enjoyed playing this version for quite some time and won quite a lot local tournaments with it. Though I think that this version is superior to the others. And if you really want to play Mystic in Miracles it might be a good idea to splash it in the RIP Miracles list, just like Ohlschwager did.


On Trinket Mage:
I used to play him quite some time ago, mostly in my Mystic-builds. He was great as he added maindeckable graveyardhate and metadepending hate to the mainboard. But wait? RIP + Tutor do the same. Even though Trinket Mage does generate "CA" while Tutor generates CDA the Mage is still inferior due to my understanding. Even the body can't be used a lot unless you are playing a more aggressive way with Mystics and Mishras. It probably is just "Tutor+Fog" at best. You still tap out for it, which isn't what most Miraclelists want to be doing.


And don't you ever cut a Top.

Greetings

on Legendary miracles what is the correct number of each of the 3 creatures to play? is it 2 clique, 2 snap, 1 venser?

[Einherjer]

Well, as said I played the RIP-Version with 1 Clique at the GP and I faced 3 BUG-decks. 2 Tempo, 1 Control. All packing 4 Abrupt Decay. I won vs BUG Tempo and BUG Control and lost to a superior player featuring Dark Confidants - so a really really hard MU then. Abrupt Decay was never a problem. All it does is trade 1 vs 1. That's fine because we got quite a lot targets. I prefer the RIP-version because it is favored against Tempodecks, a feature the legendarylists can't continuously claim to have. (still it does vary on the build).
Lilly? Well she's evil. But when does Liliana win? If they are on the play and go like Thoughtseize, Hymn, Lilly. Then she wins. In pretty much every other way she is annoying but does not win the game. Discard is no problem as we have Top and they limit theirselves a little too. Admittingly it is rather hard to squeeze a win vs Liliana once she ultimated. But you still got time until then to smash a angelic assault or kill them via helm.

It really does vary from list to list. The last time I played with flashy stuff I was playing 3 Snapcaster 2 Clique 1 Venser, though a friend of mine plays 3/3/2.... so this really comes down to your very deck. But playing less than 3 Snapcasters does not seem right to me. You really want either RIP or Snapcaster, probably 3-4x / deck. Playing no RIPs and 2 Snapcasters just doesn't seem right.

If you have any other specific questions about my build I'd be happy to answer.

Greetings

[dsck]

on Legendary miracles what is the correct number of each of the 3 creatures to play? is it 2 clique, 2 snap, 1 venser?

It depends a lot what you expect to face.

Venser is good against Show and Tell variants and Control decks.
Snapcaster is good at handling aggro decks and decent in control mirrors. Obviously you dont play them if you run rest in pieces.
Clique is good against combo and control.

I use 2 Clique, 2 Snapcaster, 1 Venser.

[dsck]

It really does vary from list to list. The last time I played with flashy stuff I was playing 3 Snapcaster 2 Clique 1 Venser, though a friend of mine plays 3/3/2.... so this really comes down to your very deck. But playing less than 3 Snapcasters does not seem right to me. You really want either RIP or Snapcaster, probably 3-4x / deck. Playing no RIPs and 2 Snapcasters just doesn't seem right.

In my experience they lost a lot of value now that Deathrites are in 50% of the decks you face in tournaments.

[alphastryk]

Wow, looks like I'm a bit behind.

'core' of the deck vs customization - I think there are a lot of flexible slots. This is what I would consider the core of the deck:

2 Tundra
2 Plains
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 (relevent blue fetch)

4 Sensei's Divinging Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares

1 Entreat the Angels

3 JTMS

3 Force of Will

2 Terminus


That's only 36 cards. Yes, you need to add 4-6 lands in the additional 24 cards but those depend on how the rest of the deck is built.

---

Trinket Mage -

He's a fine card, but never quite does enough. I played him for a long time with maindeck Relic and Explosives pre-RIP. It turned out that the vast majority of the time he was Borderland Ranger (getting Seat of the Synod), and traded with a man if I was lucky. He got cut because the body is pretty worthless.

---

RIP vs Abrupt Decay

Yes, they can Decay your RIP. it's still insane against BGx decks. Even if they blow it up you still nuked graveyards once. Nice Goyf and Deathrites, and they used the decay, so your other things are more likely to stick. most of these decks are difficult due to Deathrite and Liliana, so RIP slowing down Lili and nuking DRS is excellent.

I'm a big fan of Celestial Purge in the board for those matchups too.

---

EDIT: I also agree - NEVER cut a top. I'd play 6 if I could.

[Sturtzilla]

And don't you ever cut a Top.

Greetings

I was at work when I read this and actually LOLed... On a more serious note, I agree you really want to consistently be able to play a turn one Top to begin filtering your card quality with this deck regardless of the specific configuration you are running. Whether it is Legendary Miracles, RiP/Helm Combo, Miracleblade, or some mix of these, you really want to have the turn one Top. As such going down to 3 or fewer seems like the wrong way to go to me.

[sauce]

the reason why i think the RIP/Helm version isn't very good anymore is because abrupt decay kills that version so hard in the face. also with so few creatures in it it's really hard to throw dudes on the table to beat Liliana. in my own testing experience i could not beat abrupt decay/liliana. any soft lock was essentially unatainable. and i know that the results of decks that have been doing well lately are dropping the combo and going more spell based.

play 3 leyline of sanctity, 1-2 celestial purge in the sideboard and you will beat liliana and not care abrupt decay