[Deck] Goblins

[Dice_Box]

I think it has a lot to do with how much you can hurt their play. I mean their mass of one drop Cantrips now cost two. On limited and controlled mana (Wasteland comes to mind) you really can not afford to watch something you want to counter come down, Brainstorm and then be short a Mana to play a Counterspell. I think it has to do with the hand limiting it does. I can not be the only one that has seen someone cantrip to try and find an answer to something, cantrip again and then counter. When you take away that kind of freedom, well expect the poor hard done by blue player to want the limiter on their hand size and control cards gone.

I just wonder how much fun she would be with Hall of Mirrors out. Not like I would make that play but just think about the pain.

[magicmerl]

Second, I think you are overestimating Thalia here. She might be game-winning vs. some STORM (mosty TES, Belcher and fast-self-mill.dec) combo decks, but you can't expect to break any other spell-dense deck only with Thalia in play. This is legacy after all and decks have a certain powerlevel and flexibility (very much the same reason why we don't auto-lose to E.Plague). Furthermore your opponents won't use "all their resources" on her, but it usually takes only 1 cantrip + 1 removal spell to get rid of her. Some decks (like SnT variants) even have the luxury of ignoring her entirely (unless you go nuts with your manadenial meanwhile).

I kinda agree, specifically with regards to Show and Tell. That deck can basically ignore Thalia. All of the other decks that rely on having a super low curve of powerful spells like Storm, ANT, any brainstorm deck etc all HATE Thalia because she makes them play with their feet set in cement.

By the way, when I drop her into pay, I don't expect that I've just won the game. I still have to deploy other cards as well. It's just that she's SO much better than the other two drops in many situations.

I don't want to paint a too pessimistic picture of the card, because it's obviously a strong card per se. I just wanted to point out that you shouldn't overestimate her impact.
About combo-MUs: You can't expect to win a single game if you don't have the dedicated SB-cards to stop them. Your Maindeck basically only has Manadenial + Thalia as some sort of hate. By cutting Piledrivers entirely from the MD your list is less likely to be able to set up a fast clock. So it appears to me that your plan is buying time (with manadenial+Taxes), but giving your opponent more turns in return (by weakening your clock). This might work out if you have some decent SB card that you could topdeck meanwhile. That's especially true for the SnT MU. Storm is a differenty story. ANT is a very very strong deck - here it's the NUMBER of hatecards that matters. I know from experience that 8 hatecards + a very fast clock is the least thing you need to beat them.

He had 4 CotV and 3 Thalia against them. I think he did hit the critical mass of hate cards.

I think this is an extremelly interesting point. I actually cannot explain it myself why "control" people fear so much thalia but I can feel that as soon as she hits the table she becomes the main focus of the removal spells. If you are playing against control and you have only warchief and thalia on the board, most of the times it is thalia that gets hit by the removal. I agree that it is a misplay but somehow people cannot stand the idea of having a prolonged tax effect all game long. She messes out so much the math and mana curve of control players that they prefer to hit her instead of other goblins. She is a psychological burden that most people cannot stand. I tend to agree with you, thalia is not THAT strong on paper but when you actually play with her she feels THAT important.

Completely agree. She castrates opposing decks that want to play more than one spell per turn. But again, not Show and Tell (or Hive Mind, but I just plan not to get paired against that deck).

Regarding combo MUs I think that having mana denial works better than trying to put up a "fast clock". Our clock will always be 1-2 turns slower than theirs on average even if you have a quite aggressive hand. Hoping to mana screw them has worked better for me than trying to be "fast". T2 piledriver, T3 attack for 10 damages is good but it is weaker than T2 thalia, T3 attack for 5 damages against most combo not only storm. In general, I think that messing up with their game plan works better than trying to be faster. And piledriver is not THAT fast. Aside from merfolk I cannot think of a single MU where I would prefer casting a T2 piledriver instead of T2 thalia or MWM. I may be exagerating but I dont have much love for pily lately....

Yep. I think that the point is that vs the 'Fair' decks, MWM is our best two drop. And vs unfair decks, Thalia is our best 2 drop. Piledriver is somewhere in the middle.

I think it has a lot to do with how much you can hurt their play. I mean their mass of one drop Cantrips now cost two. On limited and controlled mana (Wasteland comes to mind) you really can not afford to watch something you want to counter come down, Brainstorm and then be short a Mana to play a Counterspell. I think it has to do with the hand limiting it does. I can not be the only one that has seen someone cantrip to try and find an answer to something, cantrip again and then counter. When you take away that kind of freedom, well expect the poor hard done by blue player to want the limiter on their hand size and control cards gone.

Yep. Thalia is awesome vs decks that are more controlling than us, since it removes their strategic advantage of playing cheaper and more powerful spells than us. Terminus and Show and Tell are basically their only ways to trump Thalia.

[jrw1985]

@ Thalia Vs SnT

I think some folks are underestimating just how awesome Thalia is vs Show and Tell.

Fist of all, Thalia is great in Goblins against SnT because Stingscourger already is an answer to the SnT>>Fatty line of play. So that half of the equation is covered. SnT players really would rather SnT>>Omni/Sneak Attack/hive Mind. Here's where Thalia comes in. Against Omni, Thalia turns off the auto-win. They can have Omni in play but they won't necessarily have the resources to win through it. Against Sneak Attack Thalia either a) makes SA cost 5 or b)makes SnT cost 4, reducing the chance of them having the one red mana needed to activate it that turn. The same is true against hive Mind. HM now cost 7 instead of 6, and the Pact costs 1 instead of 0. So Thalia essentially forces them to spend 2 extra mana on the turn they want to win, or they'll need to wait a turn which is often all you'll need to pull out the W.

@Thalia Vs RUG/BUG/Stoneblade

I've been running Thalia MD for quite some time now, and she has never been a strong card against any of the Fair decks. Decks with low curves, solid manabases, and powerful creatures just don't give a shit about Thalia. I board her out all the time against these decks. Even if Thalia has some minor effects against these decks you still have better cards in your sideboard that should be played over her. Against RUG/BUG you just want to nuke their graveyard so their Goyfs, Geese, and DRS lose power. Against Stoneblade you need to be able to stop their equipment from running the board. Making Brainstorm cost U1 is not what's going to win you the game against these decks.

[Dice_Box]

I would also like to add how useful Karakas is against SnT. You can almost say it is a kind of "4th" Thalia in the regard that while it might not slow down how fast they can play the card, it limits greatly what they can do with it. Now suddenly they have to play something you can not bounce if they want to hit you with it.

[Geeksire]

I have always believed that Goblin Piledriver's could always win me the game, but I really do not think they have lately. Piledrivers are much better used with trample, but more than likely the only card that can achieve this is Legion Loyalist or Rancor (splashing green.) That is why I have been experimenting by using Thalia instead of Piledriver because I would like to permanently slow my opponent down any means necessary, and it has worked wonders when I can get her on the field. I may have dropped a big hitter but I have never been able to get a Piledriver to do some serious damage once he is one the field. Either there are creatures on the field where he is blocked, or I just don't have enough Removal to clear the field. It is really tuff. My deck centers around using Krenko to pump as much goblin tokens as I can, then finish it off by using Goblin Pyromancer!

[goblinsplayer]

Grabbed top8 at mythic games and agreed to a prize split of 150 in store credit each. Played this:

4 lackey
4matron
4 ringleader
4 warchief
4 incenerator
3 piledriver
3 tafire
3 Mogg war marshal
1 goblin chieftain
1 siege gang
1 krenko
1 sharpshooter
1 stingscourger
4 aether vial

11 snow-covered mountain
4 wasteland
4 cavern
3 port

Matches were:
Affinity: 2-0
Jund: 2-1
Enchantress: 1-2
Bant:2-1
Esper: ID

Props:
The tournament being fun
Store credit
Top 8 and my name on the mythic games website

Slops:
Playing against enchantress

[Dice_Box]

Well played mate. What was your sideboard and what did you feel you could not have done without and what do you feel underperformed?

[GoboLord]

Hey Warchiefs,

I attended a tourney yesterday and her eis my report:

Players: 15
Result: 4-1-0 (5 rounds)
Decklist: Winstigator, Mono R

MANA [22]
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
1 Pendelhaven
9 Mountain
1 Snow-covered Mountain
2 Chrome Mox

CORE [25]
-1 Warchief

OTHERS [13]
4 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

//SIDEBOARD
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thorn of Amathyst
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Confusion in the Ranks
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Preparations:
I expected to face mostly combo-decks (all varieties of storm-combo and Show-and-Tell.dec) with some Death&Taxes (mostly because of the good finish at the last GP) and the usual decks like Esperbalde, Threshold and stuff.
I was unsure whether my original list (a CLASSIC one with MWM and 4 Ports) was good enough for the meta. Also I wanted to include Pyrokinesis in my decklist which wasn’t possible for me in the original approach. So, I put together a Winstigator list and asked ScatmanX to help me with the fine-tuning. He suggested:
-1 Krenko, +1 Kiki Jiki
-1 Wasteland, -1 Mountain, +2 Rishadan Port
-X Chalice, +X Thorn of Amethyst.
As you can see, I followed his advice.

Round 1: David with Sneak Show (2-1)
Game 1: I took double-mulligan which gave David had enough time to assemble a secure Sneak-Attack-kill.
IN: 3 Confusion in the Ranks, 2 Thorn of Amethyst
OUT: 3 Gempalm Incinerator, 2 Goblin Chieftain

Game 2 & 3: Rishadan Port, Wasteland and Stingscourger (in my hand) keep him from going off. In both games he was able to reset me with Pyroclasm. Both games were awkwardly long.
In game 2 I was even able to have a Vial @ 2, Stingscourger in my hand and Kiki-Jik in play, giving me two bounce effects in case he would Sneak-Attack into 2 fatties.

Round 2: Marcel with RUGb Threshold feat. Deathrite Shaman and Planeswalkers (1-2)
Game 1: I took mulligan to 5, and kept without a single land. Marcel, had 2 Insectile Aberations on turn 3. I concede.

IN: nothing
OUT: nothing

Game 2: In two consecutive turns we trade Aether Vial for Force of Will. I overwhelm him shortly thereafter.

Game 3: I drop a Winstigator on T1 (out of a Caverns and A Chrome MOx). He drops a Deathrite Shaman on turn 2 and Wastes my Caverns. I play Stingscourger out of a Mountain and the Chrome Mox. Marcel Stifles the CIP trigger. At this moment I had 2 Matron and a Ringleader in my hand and I had to make a choice: (1) attacking into Deathrite Shaman with my Winstigator, thereby risking to be blocked and trading Winstigator for his mana-accelaeration. However, would he dare not to block then the game would be over for sure. (2) not attacking and waiting for a possibility to connect. However, another removal would be unlikely to appear before he had played some more creatures.

What would you have done?

Round 3: Mario with Sneak Show (2-0)
Game 1&2: Mario appeared to be a very friendly and layed-back guy. Both games were decided by a combination of (1) him, being unable to assemble his combo, (2) Wasteland and (3) Rishadan Port. Game 2 was exceptional in that he took out 3 of my Vials (Daze + Engineered Explosives) AND I once again realized that Kiki-Jiki was way better than Krenko in this MU. I dropped KJ when I had only 1 Piledriver in play. Imagine the same scenario with Krenko instead…

Round 4: Lars with Death&Taxes (2-1)
Game 1: I overrun him: Turn 1: Mountain, Vial. Turn 2: Chrome Mox, Mountain, Chieftain, then tap Vial for Lackey and attack for 4 connecting into Goblin Matron, finding me a Goblin Piledriver. Turn 3: play Warchief from hand, Piledriver via Vial and attack.

IN: 3 Pyrokinesis, 1 Tuktuk
OUT: 1 Piledriver, 2 Stingscourger, 1 Chieftain

Game 2: He plays Mother of Runes on T1, I play a WInstgator on my Turn 1, which gets Gutshot. He play Jitte on Turn 2. My hand is 2 more lands 1 Chrome Mox, 1 Pyrokinesis and 1 Ringleader at that time. I topdeck another land and have kill the attacking Mother of Runes with Pyrokinesis + Ringleader, which was admittedly a very bad move that resulted in a well-deserved loss for me.

Game 3: I manage to set him back a little by killing an equipped SFM and a Phyrexian Revoker with a Pyrokinesis. In my following turn I play Matron, then Tuktuk Scrapper, then Kiki-Jiki out of my Vial, resulting in a kind of lock-situation for Lars. (recurring Tuktuk Scrapper-triggers are quite useful).

Round 5: Michael with UB Artifacts-Tezzerator-something (2-0)
Game 1 & 2: Both games are quite unspectacular, because I have a very strong draw, while he does essentially nothing but producing mana.

Conclusions
* thanks to ScatmanX for the fine-tuning
* Kiki-Jiki was miles ahead of Krenko in this list and for this meta
* Winstigator didn’t connect once on that day. Yesterday, the deck was all about Matron and Ringleader
* Rishadan Port was SOOO good vs. Sneak Show. I got the impression that manadenial and some Stingscourgers can actually be enough to beat them. I didn’t draw Confusion in the Ranks and Thorn in both matches (and I didn’t even need them).
* I’m sad that I wasn’t able to play against Storm-Combo. Marcello expected me to “crush 3+ combo decks” :-P
* it felt good to play with Chrome Mox again
* don’t know what to say about Pendelhaven. It didn’t really pull weight yesterday
* I did a mistake on Round 2 by not boarding Pyrokinesis.

[goblinsplayer]

Well played mate. What was your sideboard and what did you feel you could not have done without and what do you feel underperformed?

The blasts underpreformed. Pyrokinesis was a beast all day. I felt the 4th relic wasn't necessary.

[ScatmanX]

Nice to see you taking Winstigator list into a good finish! Congrats.

Game 3: I drop a Winstigator on T1 (out of a Caverns and A Chrome MOx). He drops a Deathrite Shaman on turn 2 and Wastes my Caverns. I play Stingscourger out of a Mountain and the Chrome Mox. Marcel Stifles the CIP trigger. At this moment I had 2 Matron and a Ringleader in my hand and I had to make a choice: (1) attacking into Deathrite Shaman with my Winstigator, thereby risking to be blocked and trading Winstigator for his mana-accelaeration. However, would he dare not to block then the game would be over for sure. (2) not attacking and waiting for a possibility to connect. However, another removal would be unlikely to appear before he had played some more creatures.

What would you have done?

This one is tricky as hell. How many lands did he had, and how many did you had in your hand? Don't know what I'do do on the spot, but I'd probably attack, knowing he'd block, then hope to topdeck lands. I don't see the advantage of letting him keep Deathrite, and making possible for him to play a Planeswalker on the next turn or the other, which would cost you the game. Only if I was hoping to draw a Gempalm (or Pendlehaven or Sting), but it does not sound like a great plan to me.

Round 4: Lars with Death&Taxes (2-1)
Game 1: I overrun him: Turn 1: Mountain, Vial. Turn 2: Chrome Mox, Mountain, Chieftain, then tap Vial for Lackey and attack for 4 connecting into Goblin Matron, finding me a Goblin Piledriver. Turn 3: play Warchief from hand, Piledriver via Vial and attack.

This is why I love the Mox list. You started with just a Vial, and killed him T3 out of the blue.

Game 2: He plays Mother of Runes on T1, I play a WInstgator on my Turn 1, which gets Gutshot. He play Jitte on Turn 2. My hand is 2 more lands 1 Chrome Mox, 1 Pyrokinesis and 1 Ringleader at that time. I topdeck another land and have kill the attacking Mother of Runes with Pyrokinesis + Ringleader, which was admittedly a very bad move that resulted in a well-deserved loss for me.

This is what I don't like about Mox list. After SB, if you use Kinesis, sometimes you have too much card disadvantage, and you never ever want to pitch a Matron or a Ringleader.

* Rishadan Port was SOOO good vs. Sneak Show.

Agreed, and even better along with Mox and Thorns. The MU gets slightly favorable with this build.

* I’m sad that I wasn’t able to play against Storm-Combo. Marcello expected me to “crush 3+ combo decks” :-P

2 wins against Sneak-Show are fine for me =]

* don’t know what to say about Pendelhaven. It didn’t really pull weight yesterday

But was it bad in any situation? Because from what I tested, it is usually just a 'tap, add 1' land, but when it is good, it is stupidly great, usually paired with Gator.

[GoboLord]

But was it bad in any situation? Because from what I tested, it is usually just a 'tap, add 1' land, but when it is good, it is stupidly great, usually paired with Gator.

Nope it wasn't bad in any situation. It's just that the pump wasn't relevant once. But then again I didn't wish it was a Port or Mountain either - it just didn't matter so far, that's why I'll keep testing it. I have only had those 5 matches to test it - that's far from being enough.

[Dice_Box]

Post

Nice win. Two wins against Sneek is a hell of a thing. Nicely done.

I drop a Winstigator on T1 (out of a Caverns and A Chrome MOx). He drops a Deathrite Shaman on turn 2 and Wastes my Caverns. I play Stingscourger out of a Mountain and the Chrome Mox. Marcel Stifles the CIP trigger. At this moment I had 2 Matron and a Ringleader in my hand and I had to make a choice: (1) attacking into Deathrite Shaman with my Winstigator, thereby risking to be blocked and trading Winstigator for his mana-accelaeration. However, would he dare not to block then the game would be over for sure. (2) not attacking and waiting for a possibility to connect. However, another removal would be unlikely to appear before he had played some more creatures.

What would you have done?

Attack. My fear is that he would have dropped a land, played an instant and killed Win. That or the sudden ram off the back of his Waste would have put you behind the ball. If he lets it past you have the option to put any goblin from your deck into play. If he is blocked you slow his game down at least a turn.

don’t know what to say about Pendelhaven. It didn’t really pull weight yesterday

I think it is a Romantic card. I mean I see more use for it in a WIn deck but, I am not convinced of its pull practical use.

Snow-covered Mountain

Why did you decide to run this? I am seeing a lot more of them in lists. When the whole mana base is Snow I put it down to a simple way to get the same art on all your cards, but in this case I can not see the point.

[magicmerl]

Hey Warchiefs,

I attended a tourney yesterday and her eis my report:

Thanks for the writeup. I see you basically decided not to be paired against a graveyard based deck (which would never work in my meta), and it worked out for you.

How many R sources do you think you need in order to consistently have RR by T2? My gut is that you need 18 of them, which just can't be done with Ports, Wastelands and Pendelhavens and whatnots cluttering up the manabase.

Round 1: David with Sneak Show (2-1)
Game 1: I took double-mulligan which gave David had enough time to assemble a secure Sneak-Attack-kill.

Is one of the weaknessed of the Winstigator builds that it can't afford to mulligan as aggressively as moxeless builds? Having a mox in your hand is a bit like an unintentional mulligan already.

Round 2: Marcel with RUGb Threshold feat. Deathrite Shaman and Planeswalkers (1-2)Game 3: I drop a Winstigator on T1 (out of a Caverns and A Chrome MOx). He drops a Deathrite Shaman on turn 2 and Wastes my Caverns. I play Stingscourger out of a Mountain and the Chrome Mox. Marcel Stifles the CIP trigger. At this moment I had 2 Matron and a Ringleader in my hand and I had to make a choice: (1) attacking into Deathrite Shaman with my Winstigator, thereby risking to be blocked and trading Winstigator for his mana-accelaeration. However, would he dare not to block then the game would be over for sure. (2) not attacking and waiting for a possibility to connect. However, another removal would be unlikely to appear before he had played some more creatures.

What would you have done?

I think you have to attack here. You have basically stalled out, and by attacking you make possible two favourable lines of play.
1. If he wants to keep his DRS, you get to go nuts with Matron->Kiki
2. If he trades his DRS with Win, that can potentially stall his mana development as well

You're not really favoured whether you attack or not, but I just see no upside to not attacking and letting him untap with a DRS in play. (I guess you're hoping he has no creature or removal spell, does nothing and you raw-dog a Stingscourger on your next draw? seems unlikely in the extreme).

Game 2: He plays Mother of Runes on T1, I play a WInstgator on my Turn 1, which gets Gutshot. He play Jitte on Turn 2. My hand is 2 more lands 1 Chrome Mox, 1 Pyrokinesis and 1 Ringleader at that time. I topdeck another land and have kill the attacking Mother of Runes with Pyrokinesis + Ringleader, which was admittedly a very bad move that resulted in a well-deserved loss for me.

Yeah, the card disadvantage of Chrome Mox AND Pyrokinesis is appalling.

Conclusions
* thanks to ScatmanX for the fine-tuning
* Kiki-Jiki was miles ahead of Krenko in this list and for this meta
* Winstigator didn’t connect once on that day. Yesterday, the deck was all about Matron and Ringleader
* Rishadan Port was SOOO good vs. Sneak Show. I got the impression that manadenial and some Stingscourgers can actually be enough to beat them. I didn’t draw Confusion in the Ranks and Thorn in both matches (and I didn’t even need them).
* I’m sad that I wasn’t able to play against Storm-Combo. Marcello expected me to “crush 3+ combo decks” :-P
* it felt good to play with Chrome Mox again
* don’t know what to say about Pendelhaven. It didn’t really pull weight yesterday
* I did a mistake on Round 2 by not boarding Pyrokinesis.

Given that the key differences are Winstigator, Chieftain and Mox, it looks like the things that make Winstigator significantly different didn't really matter much in the games you played?

You say chrome mox was good, but I suspect that it contributed heavily to both some wins AND some losses, yes? I think that Kiki Jiki can help offset some of the card disadvantage that Mox offers.

Did you feel lucky to dodge graveyard based decks like dredge?

[GoboLord]

@ Dice_Box:
The singleton Snow-Covered Mountain does not have any significant advantages. Still, I have reasons for running it:
* it doesn't have any disadvantages
* it might make some people paranoid
* If your opponent tries to use Wasteland on it (assuming that Snow-Covered lands are non-basics) you can be a dick and not allow him to take the Wasteland back. On competitive events (and when you call a judge to clarify the situation) he has to choose a new target for his Wasteland's ability - i.e. he won't be allowed to just "undo" the move. In the worst case Wasteland targets itself and he loses a land for nothing.
* This is most important: If one basicland is different than the others I can easily keep track of situation where I want to find out something like "what if I had replaced 1 Mountain with another Wasteland?". If I want to find out something like this, I can take notes whenever I draw the Snow-Covered Land: whats better in this situation,the (snow-covered)Mountain or the Wasteland? So basically it's just a visual aid for my playtesting and fine-tuning.
* I find the foil, german "Verschneites Gebirge" with the modern frame beautiful, and I like that it's a unique card of my deck (having 9 of them would significantly decrease its beauty :-D)

As you can see: It doesn't really have any signficant advantages.

I see you basically decided not to be paired against a graveyard based deck (which would never work in my meta), and it worked out for you.
[...]
Did you feel lucky to dodge graveyard based decks like dredge?

Well, I know the meta very well and I knew what to expect. I expected that there will be max. 2 decks that I would label as "graveyard-based", namely one guy playing Dredge, and the other plaing TinFins. Both players weren't there on Saturday. Even is they were, then my SB would at least be prepared for the TinFins guy (with Chalice, Thorns and MBT).
So: No, I didn't feel lucky.

How many R sources do you think you need in order to consistently have RR by T2? My gut is that you need 18 of them, which just can't be done with Ports, Wastelands and Pendelhavens and whatnots cluttering up the manabase.

I think ScatmanX should answer this question. I'd say that 6/22 colorless manasources are fine. I didn't have any mana issues on that day and I was very glad about the 5 mana-denial lands. As I already said: Pendelhaven didn't really do anything, so I'll keep an eye on it. I can imagine exchanging it for a Wasteland or a Port though.

Is one of the weaknessed of the Winstigator builds that it can't afford to mulligan as aggressively as moxeless builds? Having a mox in your hand is a bit like an unintentional mulligan already.

Chrome Mox on the opening hand is generally a good thing - unless you got nothing to play on Turns 1 and 2 (or you already mulled down to 5). I would even keep a hand that can drop a Warchief, Chieftain or Matron on Turn 2. I mulled a lot, due to lack of manasources and lack of Turn-1/2-plays. I actually think that the WInstigator build is less prone to mulligan since it has more "keepable" hands (first-turn Winstigator, or 2nd turn Chieftain/Warchief/Matron) than the classic builds. So the mulligans I took were not related to the kind of decklist I was playing.

I think you have to attack here. You have basically stalled out, and by attacking you make possible two favourable lines of play.
1. If he wants to keep his DRS, you get to go nuts with Matron->Kiki
2. If he trades his DRS with Win, that can potentially stall his mana development as well

You're not really favoured whether you attack or not, but I just see no upside to not attacking and letting him untap with a DRS in play. (I guess you're hoping he has no creature or removal spell, does nothing and you raw-dog a Stingscourger on your next draw? seems unlikely in the extreme).

My thoughts exactly. I did attack in the end. Also I discussed the situation with my opponent. at first he said that attacking was a bad move, but with a glance at my decklist (and the low number of removal- and pump-spells) he agreed that attacking was the best I could do. He even ended the game with a Jace and a GArruk in hand, which he couldn't play due to lack of mana. Well, I lost to double Mongoose anyway...

Given that the key differences are Winstigator, Chieftain and Mox, it looks like the things that make Winstigator significantly different didn't really matter much in the games you played?

Well, the card that made the difference was definitely Chrome Mox. However, the fact that WInstigator didn't connect doesn't make him a bad or redundant card. As you could read it took out a DRS and caught a Gut Shot. In both games I mentioned I played him on T1. Any card that I would have otherwise played in this slot is a worse T1-play than Winstigator (i.e. Turn-1 Winstigator is generally better than a Turn-1 MWM or a Turn-1 Thalia). And we have to keep in mind that this was only a 5-round event. ScatmanX can definitley report some situations where Winstigator did connect and win the game.

You say chrome mox was good, but I suspect that it contributed heavily to both some wins AND some losses, yes? I think that Kiki Jiki can help offset some of the card disadvantage that Mox offers.

No, I didn't lose a single game due to Chrome Mox. The game when I had two Chrome Mox among the first 8 cards (Game 2 vs. D&T) the 2nd Chrome Mox was just as bad as a land would have been.

[ScatmanX]

@magicmeirl:
I have found that for the Gator list, 16 R sources are fine to constantly be able to cast him T1 or T2. I wouldn't recommend playing less, but you might get lucky with 15. (Merfolk decks usually play 12 to 13 U sources, having 12 UU creatures, and somehow they manage to pull it off...)

About connecting with Instigator, it is not that usual, but it don't usually matter all that much. People fear Instigator. They respect him. And they should. IF you connect, you WILL win the game. But he is awesome not only because of that. If, for instance, you have a Vial@2, and your opponent has a Tarmogoyf, he'll never attack you. If you have a hastelord out and a bunch of cards, he'll likely leave more creatures to block because of fear of him. Opponents NEED to block him, which means Puledriver is more likely to get to the dome, and you are also free to attack with Warchief/Chieftain, creatures that we usually hold back because we want alive. Also, he eats removal a lot, which means that those other important goblins are way more likely to survive more turns, giving you a number of advantages.
The way I see it, Instigator creates a subgame on the match. The opponent MUST answer him. And not like they must answer Lackey. I have lost many games after I connected with him. With Instigator, I didn't.

[magicmerl]

* If your opponent tries to use Wasteland on it (assuming that Snow-Covered lands are non-basics) you can be a dick and not allow him to take the Wasteland back. On competitive events (and when you call a judge to clarify the situation) he has to choose a new target for his Wasteland's ability - i.e. he won't be allowed to just "undo" the move. In the worst case Wasteland targets itself and he loses a land for nothing.

This is incorrect. If someone announces an illegal target, then the ability does not happen. It's not a case of them being forced to waste something else.

From the comprehensive rules:

717. Handling Illegal Actions

717.1. If a player realizes that he or she can't legally take an action after starting to do so, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on another mana ability that wasn't reversed. Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to a library, moved cards from a library to any zone other than the stack, or caused a library to be shuffled.

717.2. When reversing illegal spells and abilities, the player who had priority retains it and may take another action or pass. The player may redo the reversed action in a legal way or take any other action allowed by the rules.

Well, the card that made the difference was definitely Chrome Mox. However, the fact that WInstigator didn't connect doesn't make him a bad or redundant card. As you could read it took out a DRS and caught a Gut Shot. In both games I mentioned I played him on T1. Any card that I would have otherwise played in this slot is a worse T1-play than Winstigator (i.e. Turn-1 Winstigator is generally better than a Turn-1 MWM or a Turn-1 Thalia). And we have to keep in mind that this was only a 5-round event. ScatmanX can definitley report some situations where Winstigator did connect and win the game.

Well in that case, why do we not experiement with a single (or even more) chrome mox in a more conventional build?

No, I didn't lose a single game due to Chrome Mox. The game when I had two Chrome Mox among the first 8 cards (Game 2 vs. D&T) the 2nd Chrome Mox was just as bad as a land would have been.

Ok, I mentally pegged that game where you started witm Mox and then had to pitch Ringleader to Pyrokinesis as being lost due to the mox, and you would be SO much better off if you could have played the mox as a land and used the card you pitched to mox for Pyro, then you still would have had a Ringleader for gas.

@magicmeirl:
I have found that for the Gator list, 16 R sources are fine to constantly be able to cast him T1 or T2. I wouldn't recommend playing less, but you might get lucky with 15. (Merfolk decks usually play 12 to 13 U sources, having 12 UU creatures, and somehow they manage to pull it off...)

Ok, 16 seems like a good number.

About connecting with Instigator, it is not that usual, but it don't usually matter all that much. People fear Instigator. They respect him. And they should. IF you connect, you WILL win the game. But he is awesome not only because of that. If, for instance, you have a Vial@2, and your opponent has a Tarmogoyf, he'll never attack you. If you have a hastelord out and a bunch of cards, he'll likely leave more creatures to block because of fear of him. Opponents NEED to block him, which means Puledriver is more likely to get to the dome, and you are also free to attack with Warchief/Chieftain, creatures that we usually hold back because we want alive. Also, he eats removal a lot, which means that those other important goblins are way more likely to survive more turns, giving you a number of advantages.
The way I see it, Instigator creates a subgame on the match. The opponent MUST answer him. And not like they must answer Lackey. I have lost many games after I connected with him. With Instigator, I didn't.

Well, yeah. It seems to me that some people on here are very devoted to connecting with their lackeys, to the extent that they pull their decklist in the direction of making them hit more consistently by running spot removal of blockers, as well as running extra redundant copies of them (Winstigators). I personally don't really game plan around lackey, I tend to play for either dorks + mana disruption vs combo, and Matron + Ringleader vs control.

[GoboLord]

Well in that case, why do we not experiement with a single (or even more) chrome mox in a more conventional build?

Seems like a good idea to me. I embedded Chrome Mox in a Thalia build and (surprise, surprise) it was as bad as it sounds. So, I think a mono-red CLASSIC-style build with Moxes could actually do the job.

Here's a decklist for getting started:

Mana (22)
4 Caverns, 4 Wasteland, 4 Port
8 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox

Core (26)
4: Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader
2: SGC

Others (12)
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Kiki-Jiki
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

Ok, I mentally pegged that game where you started witm Mox and then had to pitch Ringleader to Pyrokinesis as being lost due to the mox, and you would be SO much better off if you could have played the mox as a land and used the card you pitched to mox for Pyro, then you still would have had a Ringleader for gas.

My opening hand was:

Mountain, Chrome Mox, Pyrokinesis, Gempalm Incinerator, Winstigator, Ringleader (topdecking: Caverns, Chrome Mox, Mountain)

I don't think I'd have kept that hand if Chrome Mox was a land instead. I should have kept the Ringleader anyways. WIth a Pyrokinesis on a freaking Mother of RUnes I lost right on the spot, while Ringleader cold have netted me some more dudes (like: and imprint-target for Chrome Mox AND a pitch-target for Kinesis AND some Matron or Tuktuk for the Jitte).

Well, yeah. It seems to me that some people on here are very devoted to connecting with their lackeys, to the extent that they pull their decklist in the direction of making them hit more consistently by running spot removal of blockers, as well as running extra redundant copies of them (Winstigators). I personally don't really game plan around lackey, I tend to play for either dorks + mana disruption vs combo, and Matron + Ringleader vs control.

Well, the Winstigator list has fewer spotremoval than conventional builds and is less effective in dealing with creatures. For me it's a meta-call if you expect lots of combo- and control-decks (i.e. decks that can't block). The MVPs are still Matron and RIngleader for me, regardless of the decklist. The only thing that changes is the mode of how to get them into play. If your meta allows you to attack unblocked, the WInstigator list can combo them down.



I'd really like to work on the Chrome-Mox/CLASSIC cross-over decklist. Sounds promising. Has anyone tested similar approaches? and what are people thinking about that?
Note: we should be careful not to overemphasize my results/conclusions from the last tourney.

[magicmerl]

Seems like a good idea to me. I embedded Chrome Mox in a Thalia build and (surprise, surprise) it was as bad as it sounds. So, I think a mono-red CLASSIC-style build with Moxes could actually do the job.

Here's a decklist for getting started:

Mana (22)
4 Caverns, 4 Wasteland, 4 Port
8 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox

Core (26)
4: Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader
2: SGC

Others (12)
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Kiki-Jiki
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

Ahem :). Your list changed from when I was reading it to when I was commenting on it. That looks like a good list to me. I think that the 'flex' slots are
4th MWM
both GOblin Chieftain
1 KikiJiki
2nd Stingscourger

In their place I think that they are competing with other cards like
4th Gempalm
23rd land
1st Prospector
1st TSH/Scrapper
1st Sharpshooter
1st Winstigator (i.e. 5th Lackey)

I think that in the 5 slots the cards I like the most are Gempalm and KikiJiki, since they are sources of card advantage which help offset the inherent card disadvantage of the moxen. Then the 1st Chieftain is probably good, and the last two cards are just for taste. I guess Scrapper and the 4th MWM fit the theme of the deck, although I could see running a singleton Winstigator for mind games.

In unrelated news, Gemstone Caverns looks like a fairly decent poor man's mox. Could it be worth it when we are on the draw vs Combo? Maybe as a 15th SB card?

My opening hand was:

Mountain, Chrome Mox, Pyrokinesis, Gempalm Incinerator, Winstigator, Ringleader (topdecking: Caverns, Chrome Mox, Mountain)

I don't think I'd have kept that hand if Chrome Mox was a land instead. I should have kept the Ringleader anyways. WIth a Pyrokinesis on a freaking Mother of RUnes I lost right on the spot, while Ringleader cold have netted me some more dudes (like: and imprint-target for Chrome Mox AND a pitch-target for Kinesis AND some Matron or Tuktuk for the Jitte).

See, that hand is fine if you assume that your Winstigator will survive. The trouble is, I don't think that's a reasonable assumption to make given the current state of legacy. It's a terrible hand if they can 1-for-1 you with a single spot removal spell (which is what happened). I don't want to be 'all-in' on a fragile 1/1 creature which my opponent can easily bolt/plow/gut shot, which is why I'm a critic of that strategy.

It's like we're playing chess. I threaten the king so I can take a queen. Or threaten a horse so I can take a pawn. The goal isn't to do the obvious first thing that you are trying to do. It's to hit the opponent with something that's a layer removed. With Winstigator there's no hidden layer. Just play the dude, and swing with him.

Well, the Winstigator list has fewer spotremoval than conventional builds and is less effective in dealing with creatures. For me it's a meta-call if you expect lots of combo- and control-decks (i.e. decks that can't block). The MVPs are still Matron and RIngleader for me, regardless of the decklist. The only thing that changes is the mode of how to get them into play. If your meta allows you to attack unblocked, the WInstigator list can combo them down.

Fair enough. But the thing is, the decks that aren't playing blockers or killing our creatures are typically doing monstrously unfair things and are faster than us. And I think that Thalia is a better card vs those decks than Winstigator, since it forces them to play fair with us, and they are poorly equipped to do that.

I'd really like to work on the Chrome-Mox/CLASSIC cross-over decklist. Sounds promising. Has anyone tested similar approaches? and what are people thinking about that?
Note: we should be careful not to overemphasize my results/conclusions from the last tourney.

Sounds good. Comments above.

[Dice_Box]

So tonight, I had someone ask if they could borrow a deck. I told them I had two and I did not mind playing either so he could pick. He went with my goblins. So over pizza I sat down and ran him though the odd cards in the deck and sideboard and told him what did what. The outcome was an eye opener for me.

First, I got to watch him play the deck and stand on the outside. I feel like I had a totally different view point when he was playing it. My mindset was different and I saw things I would not have click too right away if it was in my hands. Like being a witness to a chess game but not playing in it. I am quite the fan of this and will try this again. This will help me learn.

Second, the guy playing it, he came second tonight, beat a strange Food Chain infinite combo deck, another I do not know and my burn. Lost to a combo deck on the last game I do believe.

The thing that really shone to me was how reliant the deck was to me, playing burn. I mean I know the deck, I crafted it, I mulled and sided to the best hand against it and both times it walked over me. Yes I can slow it, but I could not race it.

Now I wish to ask everyone else, how do you think your preferred version of the deck does against agro? As I understand it there is the Base, the WIn and the RW versions of this deck. We have gone over what each does against Combo and control but how do you find them working against Agro?

Dice.

P. S. the current deck build is the Thalia build.

[GoboLord]

Now I wish to ask everyone else, how do you think your preferred version of the deck does against agro? As I understand it there is the Base, the WIn and the RW versions of this deck. We have gone over what each does against Combo and control but how do you find them working against Agro?

Well, it depends on which aggro-deck that you are facing.
In general I think Ringleader is the MVP, since he can bury aggro-deck with cardadvantage. However, you need to get to that piont where you can cast Ringleaders AND unload your hand shortley thereafter. To reach this point I think Mogg War Marshal does a good job in stalling out some aggro-decks, like RUG Thresh, Maverick, Goblins and Death&Taxes. However, he's less useful against Jund or Burn.
Another card(-combination) that cann stall out the game is you manadenial: Wasteland + Rishadan Port. I think manadenial is effective against RUG Thresh if you drw it in multiples (like double Wasteland on Turn 2&3). It's also a good plan to screw Maverick and Jund, but there you have to make take care of their mana-dorks (Noble hierarch and Deathrite Shaman respectively). Goblins and Burn are fairly untouched my manadenial though.
In general you could say that, as soon you get paired against an aggro deck you should switch to control-role whenever possible, meaning: you should try to make the game as long as possible (unless you have some very specific reason not to do so), because most aggro strategies are literally shut down as soon as they can't attack you without regrets.