[Deck] Death and Taxes

[L10]

Yeah sure, I pretty much piloted the same standard list since the printing of Thalia.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
11 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Nothing fancy. I just stick with what works. I do own a set of Horizon Canopies but I had never been impressed by them. My meta has Dragon Stompy (Moon) and Burn (Price of Progress) pilots, so non-basic lands can be a liability. My current list is -1 Karakas, -4 Serra Avenger, +1 Plains, +4 Mirran Crusader. Mirran Crusader has been really good to me since the printing of Deathrite Shaman. I tried playing a set of Mirran Crusaders (effectively raising the CMC requirement of the deck) with a set of Karakas, but it feels awkward when I can't hit the third land drop at a timely fashion when I have an extra Karakas at hand. Replacing one Karakas with a Plains seems reasonable.

I don't think Preacher is good against MUD because they can just as easily give you a Hellbent Metalworker or Mishra's Factory. Preacher may be good against Dreadstill, but it may not be necessary. We have StP, Mangara, and Flickerwhisp to deal with it, and even more options post-board. However, I do the like idea of using Preacher to steal a creature, having the prisoner commit suicide during combat, rinse and repeat until Preacher is answered. I doubt it will play out like that though.

Against Torpor Orbs, just side in some Disenchants or O-Rings. Mangara can take care of it too. Torpor Orb is pretty bad, but it is not the end. I almost cried when a Stiflenaught pilot cast Torpor Orb vs. my Goblins deck. Tin Street Hooligan can't destroy it, Stingscourger is a 2/2 with Echo for 2, MWM is a 1/1 with Echo for 2, SGC lost its 3 buddies, Matron is a 1/1 for 3, and Ringleader is a 2/2 haste for 4. Now thinking back, I think I did shred a single drop of tear. I had never seen a Torpor Orb since, to be honest.

Edit:

Oh, and with my Crusader build, I had been substituting the 4th Mirran Crusader with a Linvala, Keeper of Silence. She has been a pretty good hatebear against a good number of decks, including DnT mirror matches. You should try her out too.

[Tokugawa]

With 4 revokers MD, you just eat metalworker like breakfast. Pin the worker, then forgemaster, then they die.

[DavidHernandez]

I may put Ankh of Mishra in the main, just to piss people off.

- Wasteland that.
- Port that.
- Ankh of Mishra
- Port that. And that.
- Mangara your land and port that and port that.
- Are you sure you want to drop that land, cuz you're at ... 2.

LOL.

Ok, that's mostly a joke. But maybe it would be a great 2 drop instead of Cursed Scroll and Scepter of Empires and other stuff, while stopping Punishing Fire/Life From the Loam/Lands decks in their tracks.

[DavidHernandez]

I'm posting from a cell phone and the forum won't allow me to edit my previous post. Now that I think of it, Ankh of Mishraand Flickerwisp are a good combo. Maybe there is some potential here for the side board, or even the main, if you're looking for more pressure on the opposing Mana Base.

Edit: Hey, in playing this deck in the last tournament, I found that Aven Mindcensor seemed expensive an sub-optimal. Why are we running this instead of Leonin Arbiter's? Arbiter seems stronger, cheaper, easier to cast, and his ability shuts people down. He comes down turn 2 or 3 instead of 3 or 4. Maybe Mindcensor in the board instead?

Also, I ran 2 Preacher in the board. He came down against RUG Delver and Stoneblade. You should have seen the looks on the players' faces. I still laugh about it. They said..."Um, what is that?" Then, "oh, so we end up swapping creatures?" and then "Huh??? You get my creature and I get nothing?" RUG Delver had 2 Goyf's and a Flipped Delver. Stoneblade had a Germ with Batterskull. Preacher got killed, but that kept Mom and Mirran Crusaders alive. There was never a bad creature for Preacher to take. I may play 3 in the board next time as he seemed really strong. I may even try him in the main.

As for the green splash, I ran 1 Gaddock Teeg in the main and 1 in the board. I loved him in the deck. I ran 2 Savannah and 1 Windswept Heath. I liked the Savannah's but hated the Heath. This deck never seems to need fetches, and with Mindcensor and/or Arbiter, it's just stupid to run it. Teeg made it to the battlefield three times, once with Savannah and twice with Vial. He shut down 2 decks for me.

[Shinwei]

I tried Leonin Arbiter when it was first released in a few local tournaments. It's too easy to play around. Out of maybe 7 rounds, I was only able to flash it in with Aether Vial ONCE to actually stop a fetchland activation from working. He doesn't have built-in flash so he cannot surprise your opponents without Aether Vial, and the 2 mana penalty is much easier to play around than Aven Mindcensor's ability. I do not recommend Leonin Arbiter.

[Finn]

I feel that Aven Mindcensor is a sideboard card. Leonin Arbiter has the problem of being best against the decks we are already strong against. Also, Aven Mindcensor and Cataclysm fill a similar role. I have a hard time deciding between the two.

[atropos]

Hi D&T people, I don't mean to entirely derail the conversation, but I'm considering building this deck mostly from scratch. I'm in grad school, so as soon as I have one of those "jobs" I keep hearing about (and after they pay me real money), I'd like to start a new deck. I've been playing Legacy since 2008 and I have Merfolk, RUG, and Team America all built (current versions). Basically, that means I have 4 vials, 4 wastelands, and some sideboard action here and there. I'm wondering what's the longer-term outlook for this deck? People who have been playing D&T for years, what has your experience been? This deck just looks really cool and I'd like to try something non-blue for the hell of it. Should I go out and buy D&T cards or should I consider something else non-blue, like gobbos or Nourishing Lich (jk on that last one).

Thanks guys, much appreciated.

[Megadeus]

Seems like you have everything but ports and Karakas that are really valuable lol. Which is still like 600 bucks... But Still.

[DavidHernandez]

Hi D&T people, I don't mean to entirely derail the conversation, but I'm considering building this deck mostly from scratch. I'm in grad school, so as soon as I have one of those "jobs" I keep hearing about (and after they pay me real money), I'd like to start a new deck. I've been playing Legacy since 2008 and I have Merfolk, RUG, and Team America all built (current versions). Basically, that means I have 4 vials, 4 wastelands, and some sideboard action here and there. I'm wondering what's the longer-term outlook for this deck? People who have been playing D&T for years, what has your experience been? This deck just looks really cool and I'd like to try something non-blue for the hell of it. Should I go out and buy D&T cards or should I consider something else non-blue, like gobbos or Nourishing Lich (jk on that last one).

Thanks guys, much appreciated.

Well, as mentioned, Rishadan Ports and Karakas are where your money will go. You can do the version with 3 Karakas but you really need 4 Ports. On TCGplayer you can still find Karakas for $72 if you're willing to buy moderate to heavily played cards. Ports will run you about $33. I'll bet you could buy those 7 cards for under $400. The other stuff is really inexpensive, by which I mean you're looking at 20 cents to $10 per card. Figure if you have $500 right now to invest, you could build this deck in a week.

Oh, you will also be looking at putting money into Batterskull, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Umezawa's Jitte if you don't own them. SoFI is about $25, as are Jitte's. Batterskull is cheaper. I don't own a SoFI and have been running Sword of Body and Mind. I'm going to swap it out for a Sword of War and Peace this week. This is just a play-style choice though. I like milling people's libraries because it pisses them off. I also enjoy dealing damage to people who horde cards in their hand. I also see a lot of Swords to Plowshares and big Black creatures, so I like the protection from White/Black from SoWP. With a couple of our locals playing RUG Delver, I also like the pro Green/Blue the SoBM gives. That being said, buy the cards that are in the basic lists on this forum, which means SoFI and Jitte.

I know you asked for comments from people who have played this deck "for years," so take what I'm about to say with both caution and a grain of salt, but I'm having a blast playing this deck. I'll be piloting it for the 3rd time this coming Thursday. It's interesting, it's clever, people don't really know how to play around it, and the toolbox it offers you lets you come up with creative/cool ways to use your brain. It works well against the field of current decks, and it will give you a "go to" deck when you want to surprise your opponents while still having a chance to finish in first place.

I highly recommend you watch the videos from Strasbourg so you can see how the deck plays out. I've watched each match several times and I still get a kick out of how well the deck runs.

Make sure you play the deck as listed and don't go making changes! I playtested some changes at an actual tournament and was sorry I did, specifically the inclusion of Windswept Heath. You don't need fetch lands in this deck.

I hope you build it. I think you will be very pleased and surprised at how much fun it is to run.

Dave

[Dia_Bot]

I have a question too for the experienced D&T players. In which matchups do you side in the cataclysm? I've seen Michael Bonde side it in in the mirror but isn't that really risky since if your opponent has a vial out the card loses it value.

[atropos]

(very helpful observations)

I hope you build it. I think you will be very pleased and surprised at how much fun it is to run.

Dave

Thanks dude, I really appreciate the feedback. I do actually have Jittes, I forgot to mention that one. Crazy that Ports are nearly the same price as Wastelands now, I didn't realize how much they went up. I might start with 3 Karakas, that was a particularly helpful suggestion, along with the meta-dependent Sword of X&Y. I watched the D&T Strasbourg match, and was also amazed at the deck's dynamism.

So that brings me to a follow-up question: what are the deck's poor matchups? I suppose I can already guess Belcher, High Tide, and the other combo usual suspects. Thalia helps, but a deck that wins on turn 4 might give D&T some trouble.

[DavidHernandez]

Thanks dude, I really appreciate the feedback. I do actually have Jittes, I forgot to mention that one.

So that brings me to a follow-up question: what are the deck's poor matchups? I suppose I can already guess Belcher, High Tide, and the other combo usual suspects. Thalia helps, but a deck that wins on turn 4 might give D&T some trouble.

Wastelands are even more now. Close to $50 each if you want them in decent shape (lightly played). Here is Finn's primer on matchups. If you haven't seen it, it's super helpful. He has back to back posts, and the second one has the matchup listing...but read both:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=306633

And here is an article he posted in August:

http://southfloridamagic.com/archive...s-the-new-blue

I had some trouble racing with RUG Delver. The turn-1 Delver followed by turn-2 flip for a flying 3/2 was tough, followed by Goyf, Goyf, Mongoose....and I lost the match.

Dave

[Kl'rt]

I ran 2 Savannah and 1 Windswept Heath. I liked the Savannah's but hated the Heath. This deck never seems to need fetches, and with Mindcensor and/or Arbiter, it's just stupid to run it.

Mindcensor only affects your opponent, not yourself.

[DavidHernandez]

Mindcensor only affects your opponent, not yourself.

And so it does! I misspoke. Thanks!

That being said, every time I had the Heath in my hand I HATED it and wished it were a regular, plain old Plains. Every time.

Dave.

[monovfox]

I have a question too for the experienced D&T players. In which matchups do you side in the cataclysm? I've seen Michael Bonde side it in in the mirror but isn't that really risky since if your opponent has a vial out the card loses it value.

For the mirror, I usually wouldn't side it in, unless you're certain you can acrue a better advantage (basically, if you play first, and need to take out Thalias that are still lurking around).
What I've traditionally brought it in against are decks who we tops rock better than (BUG, Stoneblade, Miracles*, Jund, Mud). I'm going to be firm on my position that cataclysm is the best sideboard card in the deck. It's a fix all, not a win-more.

Anyhow, against slower decks/against decks for the WOG effect matters (I have actually sided it in against belcher as an out to empty, however slim my chances are).

It's a very versatile piece of hate in the right hands, but casting time is crucial

[Shinwei]

The Cataclysm question is something I'm interesting in discussing as well.

Many years ago it was a maindeck card. Then it moved to sideboard. I used it to completely destroy an elves player once.

Then it disappeared entirely... and now it's back. I'm not really sure I understand why.

I definitely wouldn't side it in against the mirror, but I'm not sure what to take out for matchups against BUG, BUG, Stoneblade, Miracles*, Jund...

[Finn]

Shinwei, the format seems to needs a fair number of decks that seek to have a board presence for Cataclysm to punish enough decks to be worth it. When Tarmo came out (2007!), it narrowed Legacy an awful lot. Amongst others, Enchantress, Stax, and Landstill all went away. Even Goblins took a back seat where it remains. In their place, we got lots of similar decks that all played aggro-control. As a general rule of thumb, the more a deck looks and plays like aggro-control, the worse Cataclysm is against it. With the rise of Miracles, Elves!, and 12Post, as well as a few of the stragglers from before (Merfolk and Goblins come to mind), Cataclysm has begun to look good again. One final note, 12Post and Elves are two of this deck's three worst matchups while both Goblins and Merfolk have gotten harder over the years. So, the card looks fabulous right now.

[atropos]

Wastelands are even more now. Close to $50 each if you want them in decent shape (lightly played). Here is Finn's primer on matchups. If you haven't seen it, it's super helpful. He has back to back posts, and the second one has the matchup listing...but read both:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=306633

And here is an article he posted in August:

http://southfloridamagic.com/archive...s-the-new-blue

I had some trouble racing with RUG Delver. The turn-1 Delver followed by turn-2 flip for a flying 3/2 was tough, followed by Goyf, Goyf, Mongoose....and I lost the match.

Dave

Excellent, I'll do my homework and read up on these primers. Thanks guys!

[DavidHernandez]

Shinwei, the format seems to need a fair number of decks that seek to have a board presence for Cataclysm to punish enough decks to be worth it. When Tarmo came out (2007!), it narrowed Legacy an awful lot. Amongst others, Enchantress, Stax, and Landstill all went away. Even Goblins took a back seat where it remains. In their place, we got lots of similar decks that all played aggro-control. As a general rule of thumb, the more a deck looks and plays like aggro-control, the worse Cataclysm is against it. With the rise of Miracles, Elves!, and 12Post, as well as a few of the stragglers from before (Merfolk and Goblins come to mind), Cataclysm has begun to look good again. One final note, 12Post and Elves are two of this deck's three worst matchups while both Goblins and Merfolk have gotten harder over the years. So, the card looks fabulous right now.

^^^ Yes to all of this!

Sinwei, I'll comment on Elves! because my local meta has a couple of players running this every week. Elves! builds run Gaddock Teeg in the Board, so keep a Flickerwisp/Mangara/STP available to blow him away so you can cast the Cataclysm. I don't see Flickerwisp as a good option because you would need 7 mana to get anything done, unless you have a Vial on 3. Just something to keep in mind. I hate getting shut down by Teeg, though it's less of a concern running D&T since Cataclysm is the only 4-cast spell. Still, I saw Teeg in the Main deck of a Jund/Loam build that was tough to beat. He pulled it for game 2. I never saw my Cataclysm (sadness...it would have helped...).

Dave

[from Cairo]

^^^ Yes to all of this!

Sinwei, I'll comment on Elves! because my local meta has a couple of players running this every week. Elves! builds run Gaddock Teeg in the Board, so keep a Flickerwisp/Mangara/STP available to blow him away so you can cast the Cataclysm. I don't see Flickerwisp as a good option because you would need 7 mana to get anything done, unless you have a Vial on 3. Just something to keep in mind. I hate getting shut down by Teeg, though it's less of a concern running D&T since Cataclysm is the only 4-cast spell. Still, I saw Teeg in the Main deck of a Jund/Loam build that was tough to beat. He pulled it for game 2. I never saw my Cataclysm (sadness...it would have helped...).

Dave

You can also return Gaddock Teeg to the Elves player's hand with Karakas eot the turn before you cast Cataclysm.