Miracle Control

[Piceli89]

He is saying the following:
1) Red was the best splashcolor for Miracle
2) Red is now even better
3) ...because we now have(and always had) 2-4 cc1 instant Vindicates to get rid of their jace
4) ...because you simply need an out to their Jace, as yours isn't going to do it, having a Jace while they don't is good.

Understood?

Thanks.

[twndomn]

ok, that's fine.

May we look at the Big Picture in regarding to the rule change?

yes, there will be JTMS on each side, until you as a Miracle player draw a removal. There will also be Karakas on each side, and I sense a rise in Gaea's Cradle abuse on the horizon (as in 2 cradles tapping for Mana in the same turn), since most Miracle lists at this point in time do not run Wasteland, will anyone address these issues at a more general context, instead of focusing on JTMS?

[alphastryk]

ok, that's fine.

May we look at the Big Picture in regarding to the rule change?

yes, there will be JTMS on each side, until you as a Miracle player draw a removal. There will also be Karakas on each side, and I sense a rise in Gaea's Cradle abuse on the horizon (as in 2 cradles tapping for Mana in the same turn), since most Miracle lists at this point in time do not run Wasteland, will anyone address these issues at a more general context, instead of focusing on JTMS?

Karakas just got a lot better for handling Teeg / Thalia since it can't be preempted by maverick / junk's karakas. Vendilion Clique got stronger against combo since drawing a second and using it to duress the opponent will not nullify your threat anymore.

[Dzra]

instead of focusing on JTMS?

I think it's worth talking about the potential play differences with Jace that this will cause. It seems like starting to Fateseal right away becomes more correct against other Jace decks. (though perhaps this only would apply to decks that aren't running REB?)

The rest of the changes are pretty self explainitory. Gaea's Cradle gets the biggest boost. Karakas gets better. Show and Telling in creatures (especially Emrakul) gets a lot riskier.

[Poron]

I definitly agree that now red is way better than before. (or better, blue is. so Reb too)

we also keep Blood Moon and Sulfur Elemental that are rather big pieces against Thalia decks (one of our worst matchup)

[Dzra]

I've tested a bit against Shardless BUG with the new legendary/planeswalker rules (and also Notion Thief). So far in the testing, I feel like the new rules benefit us more than BUG, especially post-board.

Their Jace doesn't feel nearly as powerful when it isn't preventing us from casting our own. Currently, if they cast a Jace first then we are stuck trying to break through all their value creatures to attack Jace and cast our own. Now, we just cast Jace and move on with life and outside of them setting up a really hot Shardless cascade, our Brainstorms are a lot more threatening. REB tips the scales even further post-board. At most they'll get up to two Maelstrom Pulses after boarding. (As an aside... I wonder if this will make Shardless decks move towards RUGB for REB and Bloodbraid?)

As people have suggested, Notion Thief is probably getting a bit too much hype. It is actually much stronger against BUG than it is against us. If it sticks, it can make trouble, but it's definitely not the worst. A couple times, I had the REB and Counterspell. One time, I got Thiefed in response to a Jace Brainstorm. In response, I Brainstorm and find Swords. Let Thief resolve, Plow him with Jace's Brainstorm still on the stack, move on with life. It's a bit annoying if they are bluffing, but overall it's fairly easily to play around if they are leaving 2 up.

[dsck]

Hey guys, finished today 14th at this event. Just out of prices due my tiebreakers.

EDIT: http://www.twitch.tv/poromagia/b/408454144 video coverage from the event.

Decklist:
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus

3 Counterbalance

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Mystic Gate

SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Celestial Purge
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Batterskull

I tested Leyline of Sanctities a long time but ultimately they were too inconsistent for my taste. This list served me well until 4th and 5th round in which I mulliganed to 5 both G1's and to 6 both G2's.


Round #1
Bye which I got from saturdays last chance grinder. I sleeve up my deck with new sleeves and scout what others are playing.

Round #2
Antti Malin Reanimator 2-0, thanks to my scouting I know that he is on reanimator and runs bitterblossoms on the SB. I notice my opening 7 has 1 sideboard card in and call judge. I get a warning and a forced mull to 6 after corecting my deck. My 7 was very bad anyway (2 terminus, 4 lands and batterskull). My 6 card hand is very good and I get turn 2 CB-lock with fow back up. G2 Karakas.

Round #3
Roman Nikolaev (spelling?) Tempo BUG, 2-0. G1 I draw all my STP's and Jace fateseals him quickly. G2 Blood Moon against a deck with no basics.

Round #4
<Forgot name> Rw Goblins 0-2, mulligan G1 to 5 and G2 to 6 and draw badly, I had to entreat for 2 to stop the bleeding, but he kept gempalm incenerators in and got through

Round #5
Jani Eskelinen UR Nivmagus 0-2, mulligan G1 to 5 and G2 to 6. G2 I get CB-lock but I cant find removal for Grim Lavamancer which does ~16 damage to me.

Round #6
Tuomas Tuominen(?) Junk Lingering souls 2-0, G1 I misplay twice, miss a counterbalance reveal and fuckup a jace brainstorm but still win due Jace. G2 turn 3 Blood Moon and my opponent scoops.

Round #7
Visa Ekblom Esper Stoneblade 2-0, Fast CB lock plus Jace. G2 After getting Thoughtseized twice and Inqusitioned once I still manage to turn 5 jace with pyroblast back up.

Random notes from the tournament:
If theres Engineered Plague naming Thopters, Thopter Foundy sacking Sword of the Meek cant gain bunch of life because Sword of the Meek wont come to play from grave due tokens being 0/0.
Ral Zarek ultimatum for 3 extra turns at table next to me Then suspend Ancestral Visions and opponent cant take the embarrasment and scoops.

[Dzra]

I see Blood Moon was treating you right, but I've been finding Blood Moon to be a lot more on the inconsistent side lately. It's not bad, but those Blood Moon blowouts just aren't as common as you'd think they'd be. You have to have a good lineup of basics (that likely means you're sitting on 5 mana, with 2 Islands, 2 Plains, and a Volcanic but could also mean that you have a couple basics in hand). They also have to be tapped out and have 1 or less basics and/or Deathrites in play. These aren't impossible conditions to meet, but more than a few times that I've played against BGx decks and have drawn Blood Moon, I've been inclined to shuffle it away due to the board state.

I tested Leyline of Sanctities a long time but ultimately they were too inconsistent for my taste.

What exactly didn't you like about them? In my testing, it was nice to have them t0, but not necessary. In the matchups that I've brought them in, they have been just about as live on t4+ as in my opener. Obviously you'll miss some discard, but you'll still hit Jace, Liliana, burn, and any topdecked discard. It's also worth noting that Leyline gets a lot better with the new Planeswalker rules changes.

[dsck]

I see Blood Moon was treating you right, but I've been finding Blood Moon to be a lot more on the inconsistent side lately. It's not bad, but those Blood Moon blowouts just aren't as common as you'd think they'd be. You have to have a good lineup of basics (that likely means you're sitting on 5 mana, with 2 Islands, 2 Plains, and a Volcanic but could also mean that you have a couple basics in hand). They also have to be tapped out and have 1 or less basics and/or Deathrites in play. These aren't impossible conditions to meet, but more than a few times that I've played against BGx decks and have drawn Blood Moon, I've been inclined to shuffle it away due to the board state.

I actually tested Blood Moons a lot, they are consistently good and I dont believe its about them treating me well this time - they just are that good. The conditions are very easy to be met especially with the land setting I used (5 island + 3 plains). Batterskull is also sweet and I found it better with this plan than Elspeth.

Theres also way more greedy manabases lately with Deathrite Shamans popularity (Deathblade, Jund with Punishing Fire, BUG variations, Junk/Rock)

What exactly didn't you like about them? In my testing, it was nice to have them t0, but not necessary. In the matchups that I've brought them in, they have been just about as live on t4+ as in my opener. Obviously you'll miss some discard, but you'll still hit Jace, Liliana, burn, and any topdecked discard. It's also worth noting that Leyline gets a lot better with the new Planeswalker rules changes.

They (leyline of sanctity) took too much sideboard space even though I didnt even run 4. Theres so few matchups where they are good unfortunantely. Leyline is not good against Jace, they can brainstorm and have so much card advantage they will win without using jaces ultimate.

[twndomn]

I actually tested Blood Moons a lot, they are consistently good and I dont believe its about them treating me well this time - they just are that good. The conditions are very easy to be met especially with the land setting I used (5 island + 3 plains). Batterskull is also sweet and I found it better with this plan than Elspeth.
Theres also way more greedy manabases lately with Deathrite Shamans popularity (Deathblade, Jund with Punishing Fire, BUG variations, Junk/Rock)

It's not really about the Manabases, it's when do you play your first Blood Moon in a tournament. If your opponent somehow knows you're running it, he'll certainly play around it by searching basic. If you don't involve (reveal/play) it game 1, your opponent might still suspect it from SB, regardless you MD it or not. Bottom line is, people who have played you before or people who are aware of this possibility, will undermine Blood Moon. It's only auto-win in a meta full of strangers against people who have not seen you playing that card.

Batterskull is an interesting take because it can be tutored. I used to run it. The only problem is if your opponent already has Liliana in play. Under that scenario, Battterskull could become a Mana sink, cause you have to re-play it every other turn.

They (leyline of sanctity) took too much sideboard space even though I didnt even run 4. Theres so few matchups where they are good unfortunantely. Leyline is not good against Jace, they can brainstorm and have so much card advantage they will win without using jaces ultimate.

Agree, even against High Tide, I have seen the High Tide player breaks your Leyline ftw, too narrow.

[kaosjr]

Creatures:3
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Spells:34
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Punishing Fire
1 Rest in Peace
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Terminus

Lands:23
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Island
2 Karakas
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island


I'm currently looking at playing this list for SCG Baltimore. I'd like to find room for the 3rd vendillion clique, but I'm not sure what to cut. Thoughts on the list?

[James Dean]

Which matchups does Punishing Fire actually help you in? Are you just that concerned about the Deathblade and Jund decks? Miracles typically doesn't need that kind of extra firepower in the removal suite since you can bring down Terminus on-demand almost whenever you need it. And Rest in Peace doesn't exactly work the way you want it to when you're trying to grind them out with Fire - against Jund or BUG you want the RiP to blank Goyf and Shaman but it can lead to some strange, clunky sequencing to get every bit of value you can afford to in those cases where you have both.

If you're worried about Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic, etc, I would just change a number of Spell Pierces to Spell Snares. This lets you have more answers to those cards, even on the draw, and gives you back one of Miracle's strengths, which is getting to play as close to a Wasteland-proof manabase as possible with many basics. You don't even have to lose much in the way of removal as long as you put back in the fourth Swords and probably the fourth Terminus. Snare is only bad against Sneak and Show in game 1 situations, and post-board the matchup is much stronger (or at least it should be, you didn't post a sideboard)

The only way I could see myself wanting Fire in the md is for killing Jace, but I think you have a strong enough suite of ways to either kill him or prevent him from resolving in the first place.

[kaosjr]

Which matchups does Punishing Fire actually help you in? Are you just that concerned about the Deathblade and Jund decks? Miracles typically doesn't need that kind of extra firepower in the removal suite since you can bring down Terminus on-demand almost whenever you need it. And Rest in Peace doesn't exactly work the way you want it to when you're trying to grind them out with Fire - against Jund or BUG you want the RiP to blank Goyf and Shaman but it can lead to some strange, clunky sequencing to get every bit of value you can afford to in those cases where you have both.

If you're worried about Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic, etc, I would just change a number of Spell Pierces to Spell Snares. This lets you have more answers to those cards, even on the draw, and gives you back one of Miracle's strengths, which is getting to play as close to a Wasteland-proof manabase as possible with many basics. You don't even have to lose much in the way of removal as long as you put back in the fourth Swords and probably the fourth Terminus. Snare is only bad against Sneak and Show in game 1 situations, and post-board the matchup is much stronger (or at least it should be, you didn't post a sideboard)

The only way I could see myself wanting Fire in the md is for killing Jace, but I think you have a strong enough suite of ways to either kill him or prevent him from resolving in the first place.

I somehow forgot about the RIP awkwardness. I want Pfire for mainly a way to deal with planeswalkers and for a reusable removal spell later in the game where someone could overrun me if they, for example, brainstorm into 2-3 creatures.

[twndomn]

I somehow forgot about the RIP awkwardness. I want Pfire for mainly a way to deal with planeswalkers and for a reusable removal spell later in the game where someone could overrun me if they, for example, brainstorm into 2-3 creatures.

Your list looks solid as it is. I am not sold as to why you would need 3rd clique, when you are already running 2. If anything, I would say take out the awkward RIP for Oblivion Ring to improve your Show and Tell match-up. PFire is fine, since it could be your win condition as well. This build has been done by a Japanese at a GP before, feel free to write a report after.

[Poron]

just asking because you have much more experience than me with the deck.

Why aren't we playing Pyroclasm or Rolling Earthquake MD? Against Jund they just work wonderfully

Also Rest in Peace shuts: Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Dredge decks of any kind, Loam, Nimble Moongose.
The only "fearful" common creatures after a RiP is resolved are: Dark Confidant, Vendilion Clique and Delver of Secrets.
All 3 die, crying, with a Pyroclasm.

Isn't it good to start playing RiP and Pyroclasm/Earthquake MD?

Definitly: with RiP we only lose Snapcaster Mage.
Many lists are already not playing it, and we have always like it because it is a 5-8 Brainstorm/StP/Pyroblast.

The pros instead are rather big in modern meta.. it also gives us a strong a reliable win con through Helm of Obedience, that, with ET can be played as a singleton (along with the singleton Blood Moon)

I'll start testing RiP as a 2-3x staple. and some combinations of Earthquake/Pyroclasm alongside it.

[SBGpinas]

just asking because you have much more experience than me with the deck.

Why aren't we playing Pyroclasm or Rolling Earthquake MD? Against Jund they just work wonderfully

Also Rest in Peace shuts: Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Dredge decks of any kind, Loam, Nimble Moongose.
The only "fearful" common creatures after a RiP is resolved are: Dark Confidant, Vendilion Clique and Delver of Secrets.
All 3 die, crying, with a Pyroclasm.

Isn't it good to start playing RiP and Pyroclasm/Earthquake MD?

Definitly: with RiP we only lose Snapcaster Mage.
Many lists are already not playing it, and we have always like it because it is a 5-8 Brainstorm/StP/Pyroblast.

The pros instead are rather big in modern meta.. it also gives us a strong a reliable win con through Helm of Obedience, that, with ET can be played as a singleton (along with the singleton Blood Moon)

I'll start testing RiP as a 2-3x staple. and some combinations of Earthquake/Pyroclasm alongside it.

Here are some reasons against it:

1. UW/r Miracles runs, at most, 2 red sources. Packing Pyroclasm main would require more red sources, which will make our manabase more fragile - something that we don't really wanna do if we choose to run Blood Moons, or vs. most Wasteland Decks
2. We're not sorely lacking in the board wipe department. We can consistently wipe the board of creatures for W, so why would wiping it for 1R be better, especially if you need another card that costs 1W to do so, and only in a few matchups?
3. Using the RIP/Helm build as an example, there's already a lot of clunky cards that list is running. Adding Pyroclasm into the mix adds even more clunk

For me Pyroclasm is more of an SB card, if ever. Still, only actual playtesting can really show if it's good or not.

[Poron]

Obviously the mana base should be accorded to the list..

the point is that with NO, GSZ and fetchlands I feel that Terminus is not that powerful sweeper.
and Wasteland was already a problem because it gets rid of our Karakas. Honestly I prefer to attract their Wasteland on my Volcanic Island than Karakas. And, again, a singleton Mountain solves the problem.

We are definitly a slow deck, creatures keep on coming back from bottom to field. possibly (along with 2-3 Terminus) I might prefer 1-2 Pyroclasm or 1-2 Supreme Verdict
I don't like Terminus so much. It's not a definitive answear to creatures because our deck is definitly very slow. Anyway is such a cheap removal that it keeps its spots for sure

And if Pyroclasm has those problems, what about Rolling Earthquake?

I also like to be heavier with red because I can play more Reb/Pyroblast in SB. Show and Tell / Ominiscience is such a pain today...

[Dzra]

Why aren't we playing Pyroclasm or Rolling Earthquake MD? Against Jund they just work wonderfully

I've thought about running Bonfire in the side for GBx, but that's as far as I'd gotten. The deck really isn't short on answers, 3-4 Terminus and 4 Swords should be enough to stall until you can win. Even RiP helps slow down a ton of creatures. You just can't let yourself get into a grindfest with Cascade decks. Unless you can keep a Counterbalance live (which is unlikely against Abrupt Decay), you will lose the grind almost every time. If you really want to MD additional heat for GBx, run more Entreat the Angels. I wouldn't go so far as Kotter's list and drop Terminus, but packing 3-4 MD Entreats will easily dampen any Jund player's day.

[Poron]

is Cascade engine blocked by Torpor Orb? Because they start to be so common and 1-2 in SB can be a worthy call

We always play E tutors for hate

edit: no, it doesn't :(
cascade triggers when the spell is played not when the creature ETB.. :(

[Dzra]

edit: no, it doesn't :(
cascade triggers when the spell is played not when the creature ETB.. :(

Correct. And even if it did, it'd still get hit by Abrupt Decay. Rule of Law and Ethersworn Canonist actually do block Cascade, but also die to Abrupt Decay (and Bolt). Curse of Exhaustion can't be hit by Abrupt Decay, but likely still isn't where you want to be.