I also like the Stage/Depths. I've been thinking of cutting the black part (aka the tar pit and the confidants) for stage, depths and knight of reliquary in the sideboard. I'm a bit worried of the color needed for Knight, since you want to play it early, but it's quite a good card for our deck.
I could foresee a standard punishing fire list with enlightened tutor and intuition, just cutting the tar pit (cause the stage/depths gives you a reliable kill condition). And the Knights should in theory be pretty good after board, any thoughts?
@Stoyrm on Twitter, i usually tweet about Legacy and Magic :)
I think Stage/Depths radically changes our deck's gameplan. For the first time ever, we don't have to laboriously assemble a hard lock (or many soft locks) to grind out wins. Now, we can just use our lock pieces to slow our opponents down long enough to assemble our (recurring) win condition. When that fails, we still have a powerful prison strategy as "plan B."Originally Posted by Stoyrm
Tolaria West is now an uber-tutor for us. I'm going to test going up to 4. Even if it stays at 3, maximizing our consistency in producing the double-blue to transmute it makes a lot of sense to me. Which makes playing fewer colors better. Here are my justifications for cutting all colors besides Blue and Green:
Cutting Black
Dark Confidant was a necessary sideboard card before as a foil to graveyard hate (by serving us an alternate card advantage engine to Life from the Loam.) Stage/Depths doesn't rely on the graveyard, filling Dark Confidant's role as "answer to grave hate." Stage/Depths also massively eclipses Creeping Tar Pit as a kill condition or way to kill Jace. I'm confident black is no longer necessary.
Cutting White
I think we no longer need the Enlightened Tutors, since landing silver-bullets is now almost always initially inferior to just setting up Stage/Depths. Enlightened can't get either piece of that combo. I'd rather just go back to the olden-days of 3-4 Manabond, since often Exploration/Manabond are what I want out of my Enlightened Tutors anyways. Knight of the Reliquary is a bit of a conundrum, since I would love to play it in this deck, but ultimately it might be unnecessarily resource-intensive/slow. I believe that Tolaria West and some number of Crop Rotations will more efficiently assemble the Stage/Depths combo.
Cutting Red
Red gives us the Punishing Fires/Grove of the Burnwillows combo, which we needed before as an answer to Deathrite Shaman and Planeswalkers. However, now that we have a non-graveyard dependent Plan A, I would contend that Deathrite Shaman no longer requires a dedicated maindeck answer (we still have EE). Two of the most popular Deathrite Decks - Team America and Jund - have no maindeck answer to Marit Lage once it hits (their only way to stop Stage/Depths is Wasteland.) I will admit that Junk and the newfangled Deathrite-Blade decks could be scary if we cut Punishing/Grove, since they have both Swords and Deathrite... but, Punishing/Grove takes up a ton of slots. I think we can do without it now.
Here is my first stab at a U/G Lands deck. So far, I've only had time to test it against Jund, but to scarily positive results.
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
3 Manabond
4 Intuition
2 Crop Rotation
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Dark Depths (the second is in case the first gets eaten by Wasteland + Deathrite Shaman or something like that)
4 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Tolaria West
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Academy Ruins
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Cursed Totem
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Mindbreak Trap
I can't imagine four Stage being the right number. While it does have some fringe uses on its own, 9/10 times it does nothing that we particularly care about before Dark Depths. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the biggest thing that strikes me as odd about your list.
I'm also not sure why you wouldn't run more Crop Rotation. Now that the win condition is assembling a two-card combo, running eight tutors with Rotation and Tolaria West seems like the correct move, particularly when they also tutor up practically every other card in the deck we could want.
Can agree with cutting colors down, though. With a better and more compact win condition we don't really need E. Tutor or Confidant, and with proper use of EE we can still deal with a lot of the things Punishing Fire was great against.
You could very well be right. I went with 4 Thespian Stage because is means you will more consistently find it while dredging with Life from the Loam and when drawing naturally. It's also uncounterable, which Crop Rotation is not. It's not totally dead on it's own, which is why that's the 4-of of the combo, not Dark Depths. But there are certainly advantages to running fewer in order to up the Crop Rotation count.
The stages are ports 4-7 and maze of iths 5-8... Although multiple stage hands without something worthwhile to copy and no diamond to pitch it would be a pain in the ass to muck... Perhaps you could go back into some number of the punishing fires/grove of the burnwillows slots? It would give you yet another worthwhile land to copy off the stages. I would never play a version of lands without red, you always need non-red basics and red in lands to maneuver around bloodmoon.
Holy hell that list is sweet. Maybe Expedition Map just got better here? Have you tried to up the land count? Possibly eschewing the Intuitions?
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
Expedition map looks awesome, but I can't tell right now what/if anything could be cut for it. Do you think there would be a reason to run Expedition Maps before maxing out on Crop Rotations?
At the moment I'm pretty sold on 4x Intuition, as Intuition for Stage + Depths + Loam is insane.
I agree about basics, thus the singleton forest. I don't follow the second part, though - how does having red sources help us play around Blood Moon? Blood Moon even shuts off the ability to recur Punishing Fires with Grove.
I would max out Crop Rotation first most likely since it's one mana instead of three and lets us combo out at instant speed. Or nab any utility land IN PLAY at instant speed for that matter. Just trying to keep ideas flowing is all, I haven't played lands in ages but that has to change now.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
Yeah, makes sense, I agree.
I thought about this again from another angle. In the 4- and 5-color versions of the deck that have placed well recently, there are generally 14 slots devoted to lands that, on their own, only produce mana. I'm including Grove of the Burnwillows in this count, since on it's own, it's just a bad Taiga. In the UG build I'm proposing, there are 10 lands that only produce mana + 4 Thespian Stages, a directly comparable number. So, think about it this way: Grove of the Burnwillows is pretty lackluster without Punishing Fire, just as Thespian's Stage is pretty lackluster without Dark Depths. The former combo can nuke small creatures, can kill an opponent in about twenty turns, and is dependent on the graveyard, whereas the later can win in one turn and isn't dependent on the graveyard. If spending 6 slots on Punishing/Grove was worthwhile, I have absolutely no qualms spending 6 on the Stage/Depths combo. (I will admit that Punishing Fire is better on it's own than either half of Stage/Depths. But I think the point still stands.)
I am not sure this is the right approach. I would not cut black, because if Marit get bounce/Sword and Depths exiled by some grave hate, you are still fucked as hell without an alternative engine.
I am playing Lands because I want to win long games, and not with a combo no matter how efficient it is. If I wanted, I would have tried to include Painter/Grindstone sooner because it is also recurable in our deck (even it if it more likely to be counterspelled than Stage/Depths).
Maybe today the combo Stage/Depths is fitting better in a BUG Shell, like the BGW Junk/Hexmage we had during Mental Misstep era. But this is another deck..
Will be very interesting to try out this new combo, however do ask yourself if it is really needed. I for sure will try out a version with just one of each land. In my point of view you can take one of three paths:
1. Leave the deck as it is
2. Stick to the original strategy, but run 1 of each land to tutor for, we have many tutors and more copies are pretty terrible since both of lands are bad individually. I guess Thespian's Stage can have some uses but it is slow and costs much, not really what you want to see in your first few turns. If you feel that you are not able to steal wins here and there before you have attained absolute control, return to 1.
3. Go all out combo deck with Crop Rotations, Living Wish, 3 Thespian's Stage, 1 Dark Depths and definitely more disruption and abandon the Lands-strategy, perhaps keeping smaller parts of the old shell like Mox Diamonds, Loam, Exploration and mana disruption.
To do anything between 2. and 3. just seems silly, you want to have one main strategy to focus on. Having two is perhaps more fun, but not in the long run since you will win less.
If you go with 2. then I really liked the idea of cutting black and adding Knight of the Reliquary to the board instead of Dark Confidant, will definitely try that out! Thanks! (however I think a version without Tar Pit is not very good, perhaps just add a Savannah but still keep the Bayou, we'll see)
IMO option two with four Crop Rotation/Tolaria West and 1 each of DD and Stage is probably the way to go. Can keep most of the deck the same way, but if you happen to have a hand with one piece and a tutor you either win or they have to deal with both the creature and one of the two lands.
Regardless of what else happens, a lands-only combo that flat-out wins games against some decks at the very least belongs in the SB. It will be useful against decks that can't easily deal with it, and is pretty much always a faster clock against combo decks to back up Chalice and whatnot - plenty will side bounce, but if they're bouncing a recurable 20/20 rather than hate you've probably won.
Spells 25
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
3 Intuition
3 Punishing Fire
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
1 Manabond
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Enlightened Tutor
Lands 36
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
3 Tropical Island
3 Tolaria West
3 Fetches
2 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Taiga
1 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
This is my newest list; And the combo is the reeeeal deal. It's very good and gives you a reasonable kill quite quickly, which is why i have cut Glacial Chasm, you just don't need it anymore. I am unsure whether or not one should make a "combo" shell, with more ways to tutor, i found it was good enough already. I'm not a big fan of the Enlightened Tutor anymore, but i am going to have some Knights in the board, i wonder if you could cut 2 Tutors (put them in the board) for 2x chalice in the main, but it does stop your explorations. I wasn't sure i wanted Zuran orb, but it believe we need a Lifegain spell anyway.
@Stoyrm on Twitter, i usually tweet about Legacy and Magic :)
Glacial Chasm + Thespian's Stage seems pretty sweet.
- in general it makes the Upkeep/Sac a Land drawback much easier to handle. Copy the Chasm in response to the Cumulative Upkeep trigger for another turn under Chasm, without a big investment.
- just having a stage out is great if you are all-in on Chasm against a deck with Wastelands so even if they topdeck a Wasteland you can just copy the Chasm.
- against Burn you can lock them with two Thespian's stages + Chasm and never letting go of it. Just always copy it in response to the Upkeep and let the other die. That way they can't kill you with PoP in between Upkeep and first main phase. They have 0 answers to that in their main deck and very few in their SB.
Yes it's very good with Chasm, but in most games i don't think it's worth it. If your local metagame has a lot of burn then this changes. I just don't think it's worth it against most other decks. I'm probably leaving it in my board for now, i believe that against most other decks they either have an answer for it or Zuran Orb does the same thing.
@Stoyrm on Twitter, i usually tweet about Legacy and Magic :)
I've been running Drownyards as an alternate win condition to Creeping Tar Pit, primarily to deal with the Counterbalance decks that were rampant in my area before Abrupt Decay. It didn't matter if they had their lock, I could beat them with recurring Moxes or EE and drowning them out. They would always plow the Tar Pit and I couldn't depend on having a Zuran Orb, Wasteland or Ghost Quarter handy to save it. I've been pretty happy with the Drownyards and have only drown one person out completely, everyone else concedes.
I'll be picking up the Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage combo with M14 as like most of you. I've been toying with Dark Depths, Volrath's Stronghold and Hexmage but found it too unstable. I'm happy that we can close out the game much more quickly now with only lands. To make room for Thespain's Depths (or Dark Stage, if you will) I've cut out the Creeping Tar Pit and the Oblivion Stone.
Here's what I'll try out for M14 rules:
21 Spells
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond
3 Life from the Loam
3 Intuition
2 Punishing Fire
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Manabond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
39 Lands
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Tolaria West
3 Tropical Island
3 Maze of Ith
2 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Bayou
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Taiga
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Sideboard:
1 Cursed Totem
4 Dark Confidant
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
Last edited by barcode; 05-28-2013 at 02:20 PM. Reason: card markup
What has happened to this deck as far as being a control deck? The point was to kill them slowly? I understand Stage and Depths can be a quick kill, but if this was an aggressive deck, shouldn't you not put all your eggs in one basket? Why not assemble a more aggro strategy? All it takes is a STP to kill the Marit token. Why not run more Manabonds, and Factories...? I don't think it's a good idea at all, but it seems like that could be the better way to utilize the combo...?
[SIZE="1"][I]Team [Insert a name here - Akron?] - [very big point with adverbs modifying adjectives and other adverbs]
I see my build as a control list, the one card out of place is [CARD]Dark Depths[/CARD]. At worst Stage will copy a utility land, turning into my 4th Maze or a Glacial Chasm on upkeep.
I don't like going all in on the Stage/Depths because it makes us fragile. Instead, I see Depths as an incidental card that's tutorable and recurrable. I don't care if they have a plow because my goal is to lock their resources down as before and then go for the kill. But who were you talking to exactly? :)
Nobody in particular. Just reading through the last page makes me think everybody's jumping shi to this new combo. It's not just this thread either. I know opinions only go so far, but the combo doesn't do a whole lot of justice for the deck. The deck already works great in all forms, it seems like adding the 2 lands takes away from the full potential of Lands. I want that 4th Maze to not die to creatures more frequently. I want that 4th wasteland to help lock RUG and BUG out of the game. I feel adding this just makes more matchups worse than it makes any better.
So you can Manabond into the combo t1 and kill them t2, that's pretty cool... but you should never go full retard.
[SIZE="1"][I]Team [Insert a name here - Akron?] - [very big point with adverbs modifying adjectives and other adverbs]
I've found that access to Punishing Fire is way better than the 4th Maze and 4th Wasteland for creature matches and it's also one of the only ways to deal with a Deathrite Shaman that doesn't require oodles of effort.
That said, I can't wait to live the dream of a turn 2 kill with Manabond.
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